Bogleech -> I write about Majora's Mask and Zelda Theory

I write about Majora's Mask and Zelda Theory, AKA everything new sucks

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bigbadlochness	Posted: Aug 11 2012, 08:38 PM
Lazy Moasaur who likes steak sandwiches Group: Elder Things Posts: 481 Member No.: 46 Joined: 16-April 09	http://doubtfullyyours.tumblr.com/post/292...ward-sword-isnt I wrote quite a bit about Majora's Mask and why it is an exemplary entry in the Legend of Zelda series. Agree, disagree, but in any case, I think Zelda fans should enjoy reading it. Btw, if you haven't played the game, don't read it! Spoilers ahoy. --------------------

Roger	Posted: Aug 15 2012, 01:34 AM
Formless Pupa Group: Verifiable Organisms Posts: 48 Member No.: 70 Joined: 15-May 09	Majora's Mask is a game I can never make up my mind about. It simultaneously has a lot of things I really love, and TONS of things I really hate. The NPCs, the universe, the side quests, those are all great. The dungeons, the limited use of so many of the items, the art design... eeergh.

The Outsider	Posted: Aug 15 2012, 01:55 AM
the sucker that works toward eternity Group: Elder Things Posts: 1,439 Member No.: 374 Joined: 25-May 11	How about the "You only have THREE FUCKING DAYS to save the world in, here's a song that let's you turn your life into a reenactment of 'Groundhog Day', and even though you can skip parts that you successfully did in a previous loop, if you don't scramble like a madman to complete everything in the same damn loop people will die horribly or spend the rest of their lives miserable so don't screw up it's all on your head" mechanic? -------------------- Which Futurama Character Are You? More on Futurama. Created by BuddyTV

Roger	Posted: Aug 15 2012, 03:46 AM
Formless Pupa Group: Verifiable Organisms Posts: 48 Member No.: 70 Joined: 15-May 09	See, that's actually kind of cool and as the article our buddy up there wrote, helps emphasize the atmosphere of the game itself. Link's quest this time is him going against how futile everything is. But my problems with MM tend to stem from the gameplay side. I found the dungeon layouts horrible and tedious, for instance. Didn't like the Water Temple? Have Great Bay: It's even WORSE! But the thing that bugs me most about MM's gameplay isn't the reset time/three day cycle thing, but the general uselessness of items in general. See, in my mind, a good Zelda game makes you use your items in a way that enchances gameplay. You can devise new strategies or so, but every item ideally would have a bevy of uses, or at least, quite a few instances where it comes in handy. Majora's Mask runs counter to this with its biggest gimmick: The masks. The vast majority of masks are used for just one specific task and then they're promptly never touched ever again. To me, this goes against my own personal ideal of good Zelda design.

OuthouseInferno	Posted: Aug 15 2012, 05:46 AM
I cringed so hard my face turned into an asshole Group: Super Moderators Posts: 7,703 Member No.: 7 Joined: 7-April 09	SmashingPumpkin: Your first main point argues that Majora's had a way better beginning than the others, I disagree. Sure, you may have started off "better off" in Twilight Princess (haven't played Skyward so can't comnent) but you sure weren't a bigshot by any means. I'm a country bumpkin horsemaster, woooo yeah. In every game you eventually become a world-saving destined one despite still being the same elf boy but with a bigger inventory, destined items, and endurance. When that's your end goal, the difference in your beginning is lessened (again, haven't seen Skyward Sword but i doubt you're able to do anything to gods at first) If looked at from another angle, starting off lower than Zelda game average is really kind of an insult. And it ties in with the gameplay issue Roger mentions to be the most frustrating "pregame" of a Zelda game I can think of. I know several people who just quit the game in rage or tears after helplessly watching the moon kill everyone, not having found all the kids, and I don't doubt Outsider was one of these hapless players. The players that did make it through the first time loop are more like "NOW the damn game begins", and what I've found is that there's a little seed of spite in their heart already and it often leads to the second quitting stage if the first dungeon bites them hard. The ending is really kind enough for what it is, and what it is is the type of time travel story that says timelines can be fixed. It's happy enough, and you get enough clues even from the beginning to know that you've made permanent change in spite of the time loop (Like masks being important and staying in your inventory forever) Your extrapolation points on Majora's Mask are good, but your last point, supposed to be an indictment on the other post-Majora games, really just glosses over them. (Phantom Hourglass is so similar to Wind Waker it might as well be the same game, forgetting Oracle of Ages/Seasons and Spirit Tracks). Roger:If all the masks did multiple things vital and distinctly, I think most people would eventually end up confused. I had enough to do wearing all the different masks and talking to people. This is without mentioning the actual functioning items that are not masks. Having everything have insane amounts of uses is often pointless, from anywhere to just having "versatile" masks that just aren't as good as others nonetheless, to overwhelming you when you're stuck in a room, with the time limit ticking. Imagine being able to drop bombs off Epona. Now this'll go one of two ways: you discover it once and promptly forget it harmlessly, or there'll be a part in the game where you have to do a highspeed bombing, and you probably won't realize you need that move until you run through ALL your options. Twice. That'll be the case if tons of mask abilities were needed to do a dungeon. There has to be a balance between your ability amount and puzzles that require specific answers, and I think Zelda has it about right at its current level. Aside note: Majora's Mask was the last game that had the average damage at 1/2 to 1 heart instead of a quarter of a heart, and I think that's where a lot of "ZELDA GAEMS TOO EASY" stemmed from, since everything from Wind Waker on went with the lower damage ratio. -------------------- "Tentacle rape is such an otherworldy outlandish experience that it is something more akin to a dream. It is like being raped by Satan, there is no shame to being raped by Satan since if it happens it is an ineveitability that was ordained by the universe. It is in short a purely physical experience."

Chupacabra

Posted: Aug 15 2012, 06:19 AM

Albino Nigger Anti-Hero

Group: Elder Things
Posts: 8,238
Member No.: 14
Joined: 7-April 09

QUOTE

Why Majora�s Mask Is So Great (and Skyward Sword isn�t)

THE LEGEND OF ZELDA: MAJORA�S MASK (2000)
Video Game

NOTE: IF YOU�RE AN IGN EDITOR (Ms. Drake) I OBNOXIOUSLY CONTACTED ON TWITTER, I AM GENUINELY REALLY SORRY THAT WAS THE ONLY WAY I COULD THINK OF. I REALLY AM INTERESTED IN A PART-TIME OR BLOGGING JOB THOUGH I UNDERSTAND THE LIKELIHOOD OR LACK THEREOF. ANY COMMENTS ARE ALSO APPRECIATED. THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR YOUR TIME.

This is a special reviewday; not just because I�m doing it a few days late, but because this is a game that is close to my heart. It has had a profound influence on the way I create stories and characters, and I will never forget it as long as I live. It may be more controversial than Ocarina of Time or even Wind Waker, but I find it to be very nearly as good as those fabled titles, if not equal. I�ll do my best to explain why Majora�s Mask is not only a classic Zelda title, but a game that all games can look up to. Read on, if you�re interested- but beware, spoilers await.

One of the important things that Majora�s Mask does right off the bat is to put Link in a bad situation. By taking away our hero�s only friend, his equipment, and even his dignity, we dislike Skull Kid immediately; but more importantly, it gives Link somewhere to grow. He�s the lowest of the low as a Scrubling, but he becomes more and more powerful over the course of the game, and it feels GREAT. It�s really empowering to the player.

This is something recent games have neglected to do; in Twilight Princess, Link is the very popular and honored ranchhand in town. At least he gets cursed early on, but Skyward Sword is even more troubled in this regard. Link is A Big Deal to everyone from the very beginning; a respected, popular, and talented knight. We don�t care as much about where he�s going, or what we do with him, because he�s already pretty powerful. It�s numbing. Ocarina of Time, in contrast, makes Link a loner who everyone picks on and mistrusts. Wind Waker casts Link as sort of a dork who nobody seems to think is very impressive when his journey starts. All the great Zeldas know that in order to show the progress of a hero, he has to start small; and Majora, with its pathetic, sniveling Deku Link, gives him the very smallest of starts.

Things just go from bad to worse when Link takes after his new foe, following Skull Kid through a bizarre maze that appears to be the inner contents of a massive tree at first but becomes more and more abstract. But the sense that something�s really wrong doesn�t hit you until you pass through a door and find yourself in an old mill. There�s simply no way humanly possible you could have ended up here, and yet you did. And when you encounter the unnerving Happy Mask Salesman, who claims to have followed you, a chill runs up your spine. Slowly, surely, a sense of tension builds.

Fear stems from unpredictability and instability, something that Majora understands implicitly. Its infamous creepiness is palpable, but it doesn�t stem from anything obviously shocking. There are no monsters leaping out at you, no gory deaths. Everything about Majora is creepy partially because it takes expectations; expectations about Nintendo games, Zelda games, even itself, and it defies them wholeheartedly.

When you first enter Clock Town, it doesn�t take long to notice that many of the characters you encounter are ripped straight from Ocarina of Time. These are people you�ve met before, but they have different names, professions, and they don�t recall you in the least. There are characters who attempt to deceive you in profound, dangerous ways, such as Sakon (attempts to snatch your sword out of your hands and kill you with it) and Evan (offers to take Lulu�s eggs for their safety but keeps them ransom). There isn�t a point of comparison in past or future games for this kind of cruel trickery and devastating consequence. Sidequests sometimes place a character�s well-being or eternal happiness in your hands. Its completion is a bittersweet moment because you know that you must turn back time and undo their happiness or be complicit in their doom. You are forced to abandon an old man to a frozen death and carry out his last wishes. Numerous other innocent characters die before your eyes. And of course, the whole thing is infused with a sense of dread. An apocalyptic nightmare constantly hangs above your head, growing closer and closer, and you know you are powerless to stop it. And when, by the aid of powerful allies, you do save Termina, everything seems curiously unresolved and unhappy. The omniscient owl wonders aloud if the land is ultimately fated to fade away.

This is really just a sampling, but all these elements make the whole thing feel just plain wrong, twisted, and (gulp) dark. I know dark is a buzzword that gets thrown around a lot and it doesn�t mean much these days, but Majora truly deserves the title. People talk about Twilight Princess being �dark�, but it really doesn�t even come close. In Twilight Princess your do-gooding is collective. You have friends who remember you and help you. Everything is ultimately solvable and resolved. Even the supposed Twilight curse on the kingdom turns out to not actually kill anyone, just temporarily place them in a parallel world. Those who proclaim it �dark� are suckered in by a visual style and the advertising campaign. Majora still stands on its own as the Empire Strikes Back of Zeldas, the moment where everything goes wrong in the story.

And much like the Empire Strikes Back, Majora�s Mask contains what are probably the most involved and complex characterizations of its franchise. In fact, this was the concerted effort of the developers; to create a Zelda where you could learn more about the characters than ever before. Simply listing my personal highlights would be a folly- everyone has their favorite moments in Majora. But no matter whose path you choose to follow, you will always find there is more to a character than it first appears. Throughout the three days, everyone has an arc to fulfill.

They go through their routines, day by day, hour by hour, whether you are there or not. But if Link is present, he can make a tremendous impact on their lives, and within this seemingly simple concept is perhaps the most important element of success in Majora. It encourages you to help characters by showing you that they are people, that they have their own lives, and sympathy is the most natural thing in the world to feel for them. Even if you know that your success lasts only as long as you have before midnight on the third day, you want to succeed because you see how much it means to Kafei, to Cremia, to Gorman. Sidequests aren�t just a distraction or padding in Majora�s Mask; they are all as vital to the game�s integrity as the events that are necessary to complete it.

To digress for a moment: what isn�t in Majora�s Mask is almost as famous as IS what�s in it. The game slowly reveals a mystery, through its scenery and its mythology and seemingly throwaway bits of dialogue. You get a handful of clues if you pay attention, but by the end you don�t really have enough to conclusively solve it, and the solution is certainly not handed to you. I wouldn�t dream of trying to suggest a conclusive answer, although someone has and they did a spectacular job. But there is a mystery there, and that is painfully clear to almost anyone who plays Majora. Just what is Termina? Why is it doomed? What is going on with Ikana Valley and the Stone Tower? Who is the Happy Mask Salesman, and who is Skull Kid, really? Why is the normally prolific Triforce imagery missing from the game except for a crude and mocking piece of iconography in the oh-so mysterious Stone Tower? You can come to any number of answers, and in their usual, frustrating but safe way, the developers have publicly favored none more than another in the 12 years the game has existed.

Most theories, however, do point out that the game emphasizes the importance of courage and faith during times of darkness, and I think it�s safe to say that this was an intended facet of the story. It�s not exactly a complex or controversial statement, and in fact, it could be said that this is the message of almost every Zelda game. None exemplifies it better than Majora�s Mask, however. It is the perfect hero�s journey. Lost and bereft of his fame and friends, Link�s dignity is stripped away from him as he is thrust into his most futile and urgent quest yet. The world he is adrift in is bizarre, dangerous, and morally bankrupt. But through his courage and confidence, he finds the strength to battle the corruption of the land and to help its despondent people; learning along the way they are not as petty as they might seem. In the end, Link manages to pull through in true heroic fashion and redeem the seemingly unredeemable Skull Kid- and the land of Termina alongside him.

Majora�s Mask is a triumph in this sense. It gives the player a real sense of accomplishment and heroism, and it does so in a natural and progressive manner. It�s what Zelda games are so beloved for at the end of the day: not because it makes you a hero, but because it gives you the experience of becoming a hero- of rising up in the face of tremendous adversity.

Playing more recent Zelda games makes me a little sad, because this key concept hasn�t been captured very well. Twilight Princess, Skyward Sword, Phantom Hourglass: I�ve had fun with them all, but not in the same way. You don�t earn your power and respect, you already have it. You don�t come to establish friendships and romances with other characters, they are already arranged for you at the start of the game. You don�t become a hero- you already are one.

AFTERWORD:

Majora�s Mask, Ocarina of Time, and Wind Waker captured lightning in a bottle, and I honestly don�t know if it can be expected again. The way games are made has changed. If they want to sell, they have to be simpler, more high-voltage, and above all more accessible. Majora has its flaws, and accessible it is truly not. It takes patience and understanding to get to its beautiful nuances. And so it puzzles me to see Nintendo is seriously considering a 3DS remake of the game when it goes against the flow of the times. Perhaps Nintendo is considering ways to get back in good graces with their hardcore fans, who have been alienated as of late.

I, for one, probably won�t be buying the remake. For one thing, I�m afraid of the sort of simplifying, canon-izing chances Nintendo made in Ocarina�s remake and how they could be devastating to Majora. But more importantly, the developers aren�t remembering where the notoriety and genius of Majora stems from: its willingness to be something really different and beautiful, to be deep rather than broad. If they want to get the Zelda series back on track, start by stepping away from the safe formula. And then, remember that Zelda fans love becoming the hero- not just being one.

tl;dr

QUOTE

http://doubtfullyyours.tumblr.com/post/292...ward-sword-isnt

I wrote quite a bit about Majora's Mask and why it is an exemplary entry in the Legend of Zelda series. Agree, disagree, but in any case, I think Zelda fans should enjoy reading it.

Btw, if you haven't played the game, don't read it! Spoilers ahoy.

tl;dr

QUOTE

How about the "You only have THREE FUCKING DAYS to save the world in, here's a song that let's you turn your life into a reenactment of 'Groundhog Day', and even though you can skip parts that you successfully did in a previous loop, if you don't scramble like a madman to complete everything in the same damn loop people will die horribly or spend the rest of their lives miserable so don't screw up it's all on your head" mechanic?

tl;dr

QUOTE

See, that's actually kind of cool and as the article our buddy up there wrote, helps emphasize the atmosphere of the game itself. Link's quest this time is him going against how futile everything is.

But my problems with MM tend to stem from the gameplay side. I found the dungeon layouts horrible and tedious, for instance. Didn't like the Water Temple? Have Great Bay: It's even WORSE!

But the thing that bugs me most about MM's gameplay isn't the reset time/three day cycle thing, but the general uselessness of items in general.

See, in my mind, a good Zelda game makes you use your items in a way that enchances gameplay. You can devise new strategies or so, but every item ideally would have a bevy of uses, or at least, quite a few instances where it comes in handy.

Majora's Mask runs counter to this with its biggest gimmick: The masks. The vast majority of masks are used for just one specific task and then they're promptly never touched ever again. To me, this goes against my own personal ideal of good Zelda design.

tl;dr

QUOTE

SmashingPumpkin: Your first main point argues that Majora's had a way better beginning than the others, I disagree. Sure, you may have started off "better off" in Twilight Princess (haven't played Skyward so can't comnent) but you sure weren't a bigshot by any means. I'm a country bumpkin horsemaster, woooo yeah.

In every game you eventually become a world-saving destined one despite still being the same elf boy but with a bigger inventory, destined items, and endurance. When that's your end goal, the difference in your beginning is lessened (again, haven't seen Skyward Sword but i doubt you're able to do anything to gods at first)

If looked at from another angle, starting off lower than Zelda game average is really kind of an insult.
And it ties in with the gameplay issue Roger mentions to be the most frustrating "pregame" of a Zelda game I can think of. I know several people who just quit the game in rage or tears after helplessly watching the moon kill everyone, not having found all the kids, and I don't doubt Outsider was one of these hapless players.

The players that did make it through the first time loop are more like "NOW the damn game begins", and what I've found is that there's a little seed of spite in their heart already and it often leads to the second quitting stage if the first dungeon bites them hard.

The ending is really kind enough for what it is, and what it is is the type of time travel story that says timelines can be fixed. It's happy enough, and you get enough clues even from the beginning to know that you've made permanent change in spite of the time loop (Like masks being important and staying in your inventory forever)

Your extrapolation points on Majora's Mask are good, but your last point, supposed to be an indictment on the other post-Majora games, really just glosses over them. (Phantom Hourglass is so similar to Wind Waker it might as well be the same game, forgetting Oracle of Ages/Seasons and Spirit Tracks).

Roger:If all the masks did multiple things vital and distinctly, I think most people would eventually end up. I had enough to do wearing all the different masks and talking to people.

This is without mentioning the actual functioning items that are not masks.

Having everything have insane amounts of uses is often pointless, from anywhere to just having "versatile" masks that just aren't as good as others nonetheless, to overwhelming you when you're stuck in a room, with the time limit ticking.

Imagine being able to drop bombs off Epona. Now this'll go one of two ways: you discover it once and promptly forget it harmlessly, or there'll be a part in the game where you have to do a highspeed bombing, and you probably won't realize you need that move until you run through ALL your options. Twice.
That'll be the case if tons of mask abilities were needed to do a dungeon. There has to be a balance between your ability amount and puzzles that require specific answers, and I think Zelda has it about right at its current level.

Aside note: Majora's Mask was the last game that had the average damage at 1/2 to 1 heart instead of a quarter of a heart, and I think that's where a lot of "ZELDA GAEMS TOO EASY" stemmed from, since everything from Wind Waker on went with the lower damage ratio.

tl;dr

--------------------

You're a real Pollyanna Chup. - ScutigeraColeoptrata
outhouseinferno: chup's species came here when the teenaged ufo drivers threw their used condom out the airlock

Roger	Posted: Aug 15 2012, 08:06 AM
Formless Pupa Group: Verifiable Organisms Posts: 48 Member No.: 70 Joined: 15-May 09	That's my general feeling towards modern Zelda games, really. SHUT UP AND LET ME SWING MY SWORD ALREADY.

Admiral_Aorta	Posted: Aug 15 2012, 08:46 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cc5wkQm6B44 Group: Elder Things Posts: 1,897 Member No.: 4 Joined: 7-April 09	lol at all those words about a elf sword game -------------------- Bogleech is the cool place to hang out. You can find most of the cool people there. In Bogleech you can just chill and do whatever and totally relax. "Take it easy" is the Bogleech motto, for example, that's how laid back it is there. Show up if you want to have a good time. Another good reason to show up is if you want to hang out with friends.

OuthouseInferno	Posted: Aug 15 2012, 09:04 AM
I cringed so hard my face turned into an asshole Group: Super Moderators Posts: 7,703 Member No.: 7 Joined: 7-April 09	Because games aren't allowed to contain the same analytical depth as any other piece of media. -------------------- "Tentacle rape is such an otherworldy outlandish experience that it is something more akin to a dream. It is like being raped by Satan, there is no shame to being raped by Satan since if it happens it is an ineveitability that was ordained by the universe. It is in short a purely physical experience."

Admiral_Aorta	Posted: Aug 15 2012, 12:14 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cc5wkQm6B44 Group: Elder Things Posts: 1,897 Member No.: 4 Joined: 7-April 09	they are, I was just attacking bigbadlochness as a person. This thread was much funner when it was just his post sitting there with no replies. -------------------- Bogleech is the cool place to hang out. You can find most of the cool people there. In Bogleech you can just chill and do whatever and totally relax. "Take it easy" is the Bogleech motto, for example, that's how laid back it is there. Show up if you want to have a good time. Another good reason to show up is if you want to hang out with friends.

Chupacabra	Posted: Aug 15 2012, 07:33 PM
Albino Nigger Anti-Hero Group: Elder Things Posts: 8,238 Member No.: 14 Joined: 7-April 09	Yeah BBL I gotta say, you're pretty much a living validation of suicide. -------------------- You're a real Pollyanna Chup. - ScutigeraColeoptrata outhouseinferno: chup's species came here when the teenaged ufo drivers threw their used condom out the airlock

Ebe

Posted: Aug 15 2012, 09:23 PM

Non-mainstream French-Croatian Squid

Group: Verifiable Organisms
Posts: 1,656
Member No.: 96
Joined: 10-July 09

QUOTE (OuthouseInferno @ Aug 15 2012, 05:46 AM)

SmashingPumpkin

lol

--------------------

QUOTE (xolta @ Jul 10 2010, 10:03 PM)

Ebe is the voice of reason, listen to ebe!

QUOTE (Murdercide626 @ Oct 31 2012, 10:57 AM)

Wow. Way to crush my dreams, Ebe.�

QUOTE (Nix @ Nov 24 2012, 02:02 AM)

And you know nothing of what I've done outside the forum.

Ridley

Posted: Dec 23 2012, 09:07 AM

Space Pirate

Group: Verifiable Organisms
Posts: 39
Member No.: 370
Joined: 22-May 11

QUOTE

tl;dr

Reading a single sentence is too much for your attention span?

Wow.

Admiral_Aorta	Posted: Dec 23 2012, 12:39 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cc5wkQm6B44 Group: Elder Things Posts: 1,897 Member No.: 4 Joined: 7-April 09	yes it is, he is literally a stupid gay loser idiot and is not utilising sarcasm at all. i am glad you have deduced this. -------------------- Bogleech is the cool place to hang out. You can find most of the cool people there. In Bogleech you can just chill and do whatever and totally relax. "Take it easy" is the Bogleech motto, for example, that's how laid back it is there. Show up if you want to have a good time. Another good reason to show up is if you want to hang out with friends.

Jesus lizard	Posted: Dec 23 2012, 01:25 PM
Invader Swim Group: Elder Things Posts: 6,523 Member No.: 91 Joined: 30-June 09	you couldn't see it neither, aorta. good job cap'n.

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