ANNOUNCEMENTS BOX

I initially thought that a hard life led to self-pity. However, after reading Heaven, I figured that a heroine doesn't need to be that whiny....

Flowers in the Attic:
• All Cathy does is WHINE! She's 12 years old...I thought she would be a bit more mature.
• Why doesn't Cathy TRULY try to fight off Chris...this didn't annoy me too much but I still wish she slapped him off or something.
  
  Petals on the Wind:
• Rather than complain and say "My mom put me through this, blah, blah, blah" why couldn't she just start over like Heaven did?
• I wish Cathy truly made an effort to love Julian. Considering that Paul committed statutory rape, I would pick Julian out of the four. She had some feelings for Julian (you know the scene where they travel to NY together? In that scene, she actually CARED).
• I wish Cathy actually accepted RESPONSIBILITY for her actions like Heaven did (does Cathy even know what that word means?)
  
  If There be Thorns:
  The real complaining begins here:
  Cathy didn't make a bit of effort to help her son. She just sent him off to therapy, meaning "Oh-I-have-a-girl-to-take-care-of-so-why-waste-my-time-on-my-loony-son." She NEVER admitted her mistakes and she barely even talked or tried to associate with Bart. There were some parts in the novel where I wish Bart Sr. and Corrine had raised Bart. He would've had the love he needed. And Cindy WAS spoiled. Cathy didn't even give 10% of the affection she gave to Cindy to Bart. The way Emma, Chris, and Jory treated Bart also bothered me (slapping a boy like that; REALLY!).
  
  Seeds of Yesterday:
• Cindy just used Bart as an excuse for her actions... and Cathy believed her.
• All Cathy did was LECTURE Bart. She never gave him true advice. Bart should've ditched her and went to his dad's side of the family...
• Even NOW, Cathy didn't learn from her mistakes. She spent practically ALL her time with Jory and Cindy. Jory even mentioned this once.
• Remember the scene when Bart read Cathy "like an open book." Cathy just ran out of the room because she couldn't face her own actions. And she calls herself brave sometimes....
  
  I wish Heaven had given Cathy a good lecture....

She annoyed me a lot of the time. She didn't really bother me too much in Flowers in the Attic. She should have been a bit more mature, but it's hard to imagine being locked up at that age all the time. I'd probably whine a lot now if I were locked up like that now... and I am 23.

I hated her in PotW though. She was so obsessed with herself. She kept going on and on about how beautiful she was, and how she enjoyed that men looked at her. She had four men who loved her, and I don't think she treated any of them right. Plus, she went after Paul, who was trying to be a good man by raising three children. She couldn't wait to get into his pants. I got so sick of reading about how beautiful she was. And then she Bart like dirt as well when she finally got with him. He did a lot of nice stuff for her, and she always insulted him. It was hard for me to understand why he was in love with her.
I also kind of blame her for Carrie's death. Carrie wanted to stay with Paul, but Cathy wanted her to go back to the village near Foxworth Hall with her. Carrie was twenty at that point, she should have been allowed to do what she wanted. If she hadn't forced Carrie to go back with her, then she wouldn't have seen Corrine in the first place. Of course I know suicide is the own person's fault for making that decision, but I still think it would not have happened if Carrie had stayed with Paul.

I didn't like Cathy too much in If There be Thorns either. She knew that Bart was having a problems, she knew he was jealous of Jory... why bring a little girl into that situation. She should have focused more on Bart and helped him out first. Also, I still think she should have left Chris. She knew it bothered both Jory and Bart when they found out. Yet, she stayed with him. She was able to live without him before, she should have done it again for her children.

Which brings me to SoY. I remember reading when she threatened that she would stop talking to Bart if he hit Chris. She was going to choose her brother over her child. He probably would have been fine if she had left Chris. He likely wouldn't have turned to Joel for guidance.

I liked Cathy, but I also hated her. Your children should always come first, and a lot of the time she didn't do that when it came to Chris.

Cathy annoyed me too. But two responses to your post.


1. Cathy did try to fight off Chris in FITA. She said that it wasn't enough because he was stronger. And I think she found excuses for why he did it and couldn't accept that maybe he was just a rapist. As for the other times he came onto her, I think she was confused after having been locked away for so long.

2. Cathy didn't love Julian because he was abusive. I didn't like Paul either, but he didn't explode at the slightest provocation. He took advantage of Cathy, but only after she threw herself at him, so Cathy, personally, wouldn't have held that against him. Julian made advances all the time, often when she didn't want him to.

Good point..

I admit that though Cathy annoyed me in the first two books, I didn't HATE her or anything.

But her neglect of Bart just pushed me to the breaking point. I felt like slapping her.

Oh yeah, for the first reason you listed Layla, this is what really bothered me:

Maybe I misinterpreted the quote...I'm not sure if she means that didn't care so long if he wanted it or that part of her wanted it despite the consequences.

Maybe I misinterpreted the quote...I'm not sure if she means that didn't care so long if he wanted it or that part of her wanted it despite the consequences.

That quote always reminded me of the "So long as he needs me" song from Oliver! It's the kind of thing abused women often say or think. They don't want to admit that the man they love is doing something wrong, they don't want to upset him, hurt him, etc. etc., or they basically just feel like they don't deserve to be treated any better. And sometimes they remember the situation wrong when looking back, thinking that because they love the man, it was what they wanted. Sometimes they think any pleasurable sensations they felt were proof that they wanted it, which isn't true, but Cathy didn't even claim to have felt any pleasure anyway. She didn't feel anything but horror after the act. Cathy was writing this story 22 years after the fact. Her memory of the incident would be clouded with age and guilt, and also, she would be biased, since she did end up "marrying" Chris. So it isn't a trustworthy recollection anyway, and even if it was, she must have been really confused, having been locked up for years, not to mention that she wasn't given much of an opportunity to think clearly between the time he tackled her and the time he raped her. He would have really taken her by surprise. People can often have sinful thoughts that they'd never act on. It's possible she had a thought that she wasn't able to suppress because there was no time between when Chris tackled her and when he raped her. So whereas most people would be able to ignore such a thought and not act on it, she wasn't able to because everything happened so fast and it was out of her control. She probably tried as hard as she could to fight him off, and she couldn't. She said her strength couldn't hold up to his. So it's possible she was thinking that she loved him and wanted him as he was raping her and as she lay powerless to fight him off, but that doesn't mean that it was what she really wanted. It could have just been a thought she had and that, if she'd had any control over the situation, she would have ignored.

What really bugged me was Cathy's treatment of Bart. If There be Thorns takes place when Bart is 10 years old and SOY is when he's twenty-five. Does this mean in 15 years, Cathy was unable to undo a few months of his life?

Bart, therefore, must have been in an extremely horrible state to start with and/or Cathy didn't do anything to help him.

I really don't think Cathy cared much about Bart as she claimed to. She just used him as a tool against his father.

Another thing: after reading Heaven (sorry I'm dragging that book into this post; I'm just comparing original VCA characters), it was amazing how selfless Heaven was compared to Cathy. Cathy wanted Cindy despite the neglect she was ALREADY giving her son. Worst of all in SOY, Cathy GIVES UP on her SON of all people, without even trying to help him in the first place. And what was with her calling Bart "my second son." She didn't call Chris or Paul "my second./third husband" so why should she place Bart down like that.

We already know she put Chris and Jory above Bart.

She's willing to give up on her son just because he wants to hit back the man who whacked him repeatedly on his bottom and spanked him for coming later to dinner. My parents, who are pretty strict, never went that far. What happened to "children come first before anything"? Speaking of which, you know the part where Cathy repeatedly slaps Bart's face, locks him in the attic, calls him a monster, and takes him to therapists and forgets about him? That really got me boiling.

She's willing to give up on her son just because he wants to hit back the man who whacked him repeatedly on his bottom and spanked him for coming later to dinner. My parents, who are pretty strict, never went that far. What happened to "children come first before anything"? Speaking of which, you know the part where Cathy repeatedly slaps Bart's face, locks him in the attic, calls him a monster, and takes him to therapists and forgets about him? That really got me boiling.

I think that Cathy felt guilty about her fling with Bart Sr. and what she did to humiliate Corrine. That's why she kept a distance from Bart Jr.

It did bother me how she stayed cooped up in their home while writing the book in ITBT. I've never been in charge of small children, but I'm sure if I ever am I'd be focused enough on them to know if a wacky neighbor is spoiling them with gifts and things.

I don't hate Cathy but if you look at the History of The Dollanganger/Foxworth Clan, you would realize that "Beauty" was always part of their lives and the "More Beautiful" you were the more status you had.

Case in point:

Olivia was jealous of Alicia's Beauty and Malcolm was in love with her although she was his Stepmother. When Olivia sent Alicia to live in the Attic, she cut her hair off so she wouldn't be thought of as beautiful and she would finally be off of her pedestal.

Corrine was also a beautiful young lady as was Christopher a Handsome Young Man. Now if these two children weren't so attractive do you think for one minute they would have been a sensation at The Foxworth Christmas Party.

When Olivia heard of The Births of the Children, they were referred to as The Dresden Dolls because of their flawless skin and beautiful hair. Olivia allowed History to repeat itself when she cut off Cathy's Hair not to mention putting tar in it.

In FITA, Cathy reminisced about how on Friday her mother would go to the Beauty Salon to look "Beautiful" for her husband when he came home which was a Weekly Ritual. I'm lucky if I can go once a month.

When they were locked up, Cathy was mesmerized by her Mother's Beauty on the night of The Christmas Ball as well as her own burgeoning beauty.

In PITA, Cathy sensed that Paul was more interested in her than Carrie which was a shame considering that Carrie really needed his help, and she even wrote about how she created attention when Cars would stop to stare at her beauty.

She mesmerized every man she loved from Seducing Paul, being a Sensation in Romeo & Juliet with Julian not to mention entrancing Bart.

Not so much in IFTB.

In SOY, she spent her first night in Foxworth Hall, in her new Bath and was pleased to know that she still had curves. Bart desired Melodie like Malcolm desired Alicia.

I don't think Cathy was hateful, she just grew up in an environment where they were not taught that it's just as important to be beautiful inside than outside.

Think about it, don't you notice that the "Popular" Girls who return for a High School Reunion always look a mess. They are Bloated, Wrinkled, and sometimes unrecognizable while the so called "Geeks" return successful, powerful, and more entrancing than anyone could ever imagine.

Quote:

Her answer and her glare seemed to infuriate him more. "You're not my sister, just a smart-a** little b*tch in heat—the same as your mother!"

This time it was Chris who jumped up from the table and slapped Bart hard. Bart drew back and raised his fists, as if ready to punch Chris in the jaw—when I jumped to my feet and placed myself in front of Chris. "No, don't you dare ever hit the man who's tried to be the best father possible! If you do, Bart, you and I are through forever!"

She's willing to give up on her son just because he wants to hit back the man who whacked him repeatedly on his bottom and spanked him for coming later to dinner. My parents, who are pretty strict, never went that far. What happened to "children come first before anything"? Speaking of which, you know the part where Cathy repeatedly slaps Bart's face, locks him in the attic, calls him a monster, and takes him to therapists and forgets about him? That really got me boiling.

Bart had alot of anger issues in this scene. He loved his mother, damned near worshipped her and he finds out that his Stepfather is really his Blood Uncle. The biggest problem was that Chris & Cathy lived by that old saying:

"If you tell a lie over and over, eventually, the lie will become the truth!".

Cathy wanted Bart to think that Chris was his "Father" when he wasn't at all, also Cathy's biggest problem was that she felt that once the truth came out, the Family would be normal and of course it wasn't. Cathy could have said something like:

"If you have any anger issues, take them up with me, not with Cindy or anyone else, I have apologized to you over and over, but I will be damned if you disrespect anyone in this family who have tried their hardest to be nice to you, even when you know deep down you don't deserve it!"

My Aunt unfortunately is like that, she's so bitter over what my Late Grandmother did to her she brings her "Issues" into her own marriage and that is why she doesn't have a good relationship with her own daughter. Everything is always "Remember when Mom did this or did that?" it's pathetic.

If I were Chris, I would have said to Cathy:

"We've done everything possible to help him, but he's won't allow us to reach him, I'm sick and tired of apologizing for what happened, I realize it's all my fault, and I'm sorry but I'm not going to spend the rest of my life trying to pay a debt that will never be settled, let's leave now and leave him to spend the rest of his life like Malcolm, bitter, lonely without anyone to really love him."

I agree that Bart WAS responsible for their bad relationship. What bothered me was that Cathy didn't really accept the responsibility of what she did (or DOES).

Well ok, she started to do so in SOY but only towards the end.

Alright, "hate" is too strong of a word. I strongly disliked Cathy.

But what I DID like about Cathy was that she was imperfect. The GW tends to portray his characters as innocent and perfect, which just makes them more annoying. Cathy isn't like that.

I wasn't all that mature when I was 12, so I can't fault Cathy for how she behaved in FITA. She was suddenly a mother figure when she was still a child herself. And she was very confused, which is why she wanted to be close to Chris and then would push him away.

She was a bit annoying in POTW (my favorite in the series, BTW) but again, she was only 15 when they left Foxworth Hall. I can still understand her confusion and bad relationship choices here. Her biggest flaw during these times is her vanity. She makes it clear at all times that she loves her looks more than anything else.

But as much as I love Cathy, she really starts going downhill in ITBT. I think we can all pretty much agree on that. She just wasn't a very good mother.

I admired Cathy's strength in the first 2 books. She wasn't the most mature character, but she was one of the strongest.

I agree she started to go downhill in the last two books. I was nearly in tears for Bart.