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 Homer - Civic
Homer
Posted: Jul 15 2009, 01:49 PM


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Member No.: 58
Joined: 30-December 07



Had the car dynoed recently, not the best figures but it's in need of a good tune. Cars running rich all the way through, so should see some improvement after the maps been sorted.

First with the old exhaust.
user posted image

With the new exhaust.
user posted image
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Scoupe
Posted: Jul 15 2009, 05:53 PM


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Joined: 30-November 08



Which exhausts' have you changed from/to?


--------------------
My toy: S13...stage 2
T28, Blitz Nur-spec, K&N (ghey), Big FMIC with stainless pipework, Walbro 255 and Horsham Developments fuelling.
Lots of suspension work.
Rolling roaded on 27/03/09 @ 284.7bhp

And most importantly.......a welded diff tongue.gif
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Homer
Posted: Jul 15 2009, 06:17 PM


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Joined: 30-December 07



I had what i think was a standard exhaust with a magnaflow back box, now got a Ronin stainless systems exhaust. (highly reccomended)
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Scoupe
Posted: Jul 15 2009, 06:53 PM


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Its a respecatble gain from an exhaust.

I presume you went for the 2.5" system that you were talking about in you thread in the projects sections?


--------------------
My toy: S13...stage 2
T28, Blitz Nur-spec, K&N (ghey), Big FMIC with stainless pipework, Walbro 255 and Horsham Developments fuelling.
Lots of suspension work.
Rolling roaded on 27/03/09 @ 284.7bhp

And most importantly.......a welded diff tongue.gif
Top
Captain_Sl0w
Posted: Jul 15 2009, 08:12 PM


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Group: Tuning House
Posts: 275
Member No.: 12
Joined: 18-September 07



You can see the 'overcamming' in that dyno graph. The cams are progressively bleeding off compression, which is lowering your torque and giving you such a small rate of power increase across the higher portion of the rev range. The torque actually looks roughly consistent with what a stock block B18C4 would put out. The peak power and position in the rev range is indicative of anything from tuned entry level cams (like my set or ITR/CTR cams) to very poorly tuned mid-level cams (Toda B /Skunk2 stage 2 - highly doubtful you have PRO1). Due to the way you seem to lose torque I would say the latter. Once mapped up properly you'll manage about 200-220bhp depending on a multitude of factors. 1800cc setups using high-end cams with the appropriate level of compression usually see over 250bhp and 2.0L setups around 300bhp and beyond


--------------------
EG6 @ 189bhp / 125ftlbs
DC2 @ ?
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benskett
Posted: Jul 15 2009, 08:47 PM


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Was gonna say, that's low for the spec, mine's 203.6bhp with just intake/exhaust!
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Captain_Sl0w
Posted: Jul 15 2009, 08:51 PM


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Group: Tuning House
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yeh if he had the kind of compression you get in an ITR (11:1 or thereabouts) then once tuned he would see that 220bhp I said, but if its a stock block B18C4 then 200bhp.


--------------------
EG6 @ 189bhp / 125ftlbs
DC2 @ ?
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Homer
Posted: Jul 16 2009, 10:35 AM


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The skunk2 cams have etchings on the shaft ends so should be able to confirm what cams i have that way, although i've talked to the engine builders and they've confirmed the spec i was given by the last owner.

This is quite interesting.
http://www.honda-tech.com/showthread.php?t=2573603
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Homer
Posted: Jul 16 2009, 10:55 AM


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QUOTE (Scoupe @ Jul 15 2009, 06:53 PM)
Its a respecatble gain from an exhaust.

I presume you went for the 2.5" system that you were talking about in you thread in the projects sections?

Yes mate, 2.5" now.
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Scoupe
Posted: Jul 16 2009, 06:03 PM


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As much as your getting very excited about the overlap of the cams being the killer of the engine, there are a multitude of other factors to consider.

The first, (and I personally think for an NA engine) is that the gains in the lack of drop of airflow (and therefore VE) from having the exhaust and the inlet valves open at the same time, is POSSIBLY more than the losses from the slight loss of compression.

This however depends on the amount of time they are open together, and the rate of lift/uplift on the cam profiles.

The second, is that on big power NA engines the exhaust and inlet sides of things have to work "perfectly" together. If the airflow on the inlet side is too restricted then other than the obvious lack of air for a completely efficient combustion, the exhaust process will then also be inefficient as the exhaust will not be heated as it is supposed to be with the correct amount of exit gasses, and therefore will flow slower, further choking the engine. (This assumes that the engine is mapped for the amount of air the it is ACTUALLY intaking, and not larger amount of air that it is SUPPOSED to be takeing.

The actual timing of both cams in relation to TDC is also a massive factor, I'm not going to go into at as we would be here for about 3 years.

What I think, and thats not know, thats think! that is wrong with it in your particular case (and I could be wrong) is that either the inlet cam needs retarding ever so slightly, or the exhaust cam needs advancing ever so slightly. Obviously depending on when your individual engine reaches the most efficien compression pressure for efficient combustion (when the ignition occurs) i.e. the timing of the two cams in relation to TDC again, would depend on which cam you had to adjust to get it spot on, but it could just result in a loss of total airflow across the head.


--------------------
My toy: S13...stage 2
T28, Blitz Nur-spec, K&N (ghey), Big FMIC with stainless pipework, Walbro 255 and Horsham Developments fuelling.
Lots of suspension work.
Rolling roaded on 27/03/09 @ 284.7bhp

And most importantly.......a welded diff tongue.gif
Top
Homer
Posted: Jul 16 2009, 06:12 PM


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Group: Members
Posts: 263
Member No.: 58
Joined: 30-December 07



That's pretty much what i'm sort of thinking, either way it needs a good tune and dealing with the cams was going to be part of it.
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Scoupe
Posted: Jul 16 2009, 06:17 PM


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Posts: 173
Member No.: 239
Joined: 30-November 08



Best thing to do really, in all total honesty as we all know is to take it to a professional who deals with them all of the time, because as much as there are people on here with a good amount of knowledge etc, it is unfortunately limited compared to someone who is used to problem solving performance engines!

But I do hope you get it sorted as judging by the spec of the engine (and nothing else tongue.gif) it could be a bit of a weapon when its all sorted


--------------------
My toy: S13...stage 2
T28, Blitz Nur-spec, K&N (ghey), Big FMIC with stainless pipework, Walbro 255 and Horsham Developments fuelling.
Lots of suspension work.
Rolling roaded on 27/03/09 @ 284.7bhp

And most importantly.......a welded diff tongue.gif
Top
Captain_Sl0w
Posted: Jul 17 2009, 01:08 AM


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Group: Tuning House
Posts: 275
Member No.: 12
Joined: 18-September 07



QUOTE
overlap of the cams being the killer of the engine


Overlap isnt really an issue, hence why i never mentioned it. The degree of valve overlap only determines the profile of the power band - with no overlap it actually increases mid-range power at the expense of top end peak power. The opposite is also true. This doesnt actually have all that much bearing on an engine's output - Its just not possible for it to be a major factor here. If anything, the more lift and duration you have in a camshaft (a lot more than standard cams in this case), the less you can adjust overlap for fear of interference. So this makes it even less likely to be a factor here.

What scoupe goes on to say shouldnt be confused with the valve overlap he discussed earlier because he is on about volumetric efficiency; the rotation of intake and exhaust cams in timed relation to each other to provide efficient flow with their resultant impact on the valves. I think he is insinuating that the camshafts werent degreed in correctly when they were installed. Normally engines run horribly if this is the case; but they could be slightly off in where valves are opened and closed in relation to TDC, so id agree its one more issue to consider along with the tune and compression. As far as all the bolt-on intake and exhaust bits; from what i saw and what has since been added, it should be adequate for his needs. As said, check your ignition timing is what the cam manufacturer recommends (once you find out who made them with the etchings on the end)


--------------------
EG6 @ 189bhp / 125ftlbs
DC2 @ ?
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Homer
Posted: Jul 18 2009, 09:21 PM


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Joined: 30-December 07



Done a comp test and readings were from 225psi - 235psi, averaged out to 230psi.
Not sure what that means in terms of comp ratio?
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Captain_Sl0w
Posted: Jul 19 2009, 12:36 PM


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Group: Tuning House
Posts: 275
Member No.: 12
Joined: 18-September 07



There are equations on the internet to figure it out. The consistency amongst the cylinders is good - up to 1 bar difference is fine


--------------------
EG6 @ 189bhp / 125ftlbs
DC2 @ ?
Top
Scoupe
Posted: Jul 19 2009, 03:52 PM


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Group: Members
Posts: 173
Member No.: 239
Joined: 30-November 08



It would be a fair amount easier to work out the CR from the bore, stroke and cc of the combustion chamber in the head.


--------------------
My toy: S13...stage 2
T28, Blitz Nur-spec, K&N (ghey), Big FMIC with stainless pipework, Walbro 255 and Horsham Developments fuelling.
Lots of suspension work.
Rolling roaded on 27/03/09 @ 284.7bhp

And most importantly.......a welded diff tongue.gif
Top
Captain_Sl0w
Posted: Jul 22 2009, 12:14 AM


A grand master


Group: Tuning House
Posts: 275
Member No.: 12
Joined: 18-September 07



There are a number of compression calculators for honda engines on the internet, but they wont help you - they are made for pre-build part selection.


--------------------
EG6 @ 189bhp / 125ftlbs
DC2 @ ?
Top
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