></a>
</div>
<!-- google_ad_section_start(weight=0) -->
<!-- IE6/Win TABLE FIX -->
<table  width=  · Portal  Help      Search      Members      Calendar

Enjoy forums? Start your own community for free.
InvisionFree - Free Forum Hosting
Welcome to The 110 Club. We hope you enjoy your visit.

You are currently viewing our forum as a guest. This means you are limited to certain areas of the board and there are some features you can't use. If you join our community, you will be able to access member-only sections, and use many member-only features such as customizing your profile, sending personal messages, and voting in polls. Registration is simple, fast, and completely free. Once you have registered, please post in "Welcome Center" to request administrator validation.

Join our community!

If you're already a member, please log in to your account to access all of our features.

Name:   Password:


 

 Why double surname for italian women??
RaroZero
Posted: Feb 10 2013, 12:10 PM


Youngster


Group: Members
Posts: 15
Member No.: 1,470
Joined: 4-February 13



Hi, I don't understand why for you and your lists the italian women are the only ones with a double surname.. It's absurd for me. dry.gif
Italian women keep the same last name after marriage!
So Maria Radaelli remains Maria Radaelli, and not also Granori.
Emma Morano remains only Emma Morano, without Martinuzzi.
Just in the obituary you can find in big "Emma Morano" and after, least "in Martinuzzi"...or, if housband already dead, "vedova Martinuzzi" (widow of Martinuzzi).
So why in your lists and tables, you don't return the only origial surname to all the italian women?

I'd like to read Maria Radaelli, Emma Morano, Maria Gravigi, Rosa Frau, Rosa Bandini... and not their husbands! dry.gif

tongue.gif tongue.gif tongue.gif

I hope you'll approve this smile.gif

This post has been edited by RaroZero on Feb 10 2013, 12:14 PM
Top
OscarLake
Posted: Feb 15 2013, 08:47 AM


.


Group: Moderators
Posts: 906
Member No.: 1,466
Joined: 28-January 13



QUOTE (RaroZero @ Feb 10 2013, 12:10 PM)
Hi, I don't understand why for you and your lists the italian women are the only ones with a double surname.. It's absurd for me.  dry.gif
Italian women keep the same last name after marriage!
So Maria Radaelli remains Maria Radaelli, and not also Granori.
Emma Morano remains only Emma Morano, without Martinuzzi.
Just in the obituary you can find in big "Emma Morano" and after, least "in Martinuzzi"...or, if housband already dead, "vedova Martinuzzi" (widow of Martinuzzi).
So why in your lists and tables, you don't return the only origial surname to all the italian women?

I'd like to read Maria Radaelli, Emma Morano, Maria Gravigi, Rosa Frau, Rosa Bandini... and not their husbands!  dry.gif

tongue.gif  tongue.gif  tongue.gif

I hope you'll approve this smile.gif

Hey, RaroZero. l understand your point, it is alot easier to read and write their names with only one surname.

However, l think it's a rule to have a person's full name; the name that they have on their passports and papers.

Any name changes on the lists wouldn't be consistent with their official names. lt might create confusion, perhaps.

lmagine if we, out of convenience, started writing Jiro Kim on the lists biggrin.gif
Top
davzar
Posted: Feb 15 2013, 09:38 AM


Amazing SC Emma Morano :)


Group: Trusted Members
Posts: 3,096
Member No.: 1,245
Joined: 4-January 12



QUOTE (OscarLake @ Feb 15 2013, 08:47 AM)
QUOTE (RaroZero @ Feb 10 2013, 12:10 PM)
Hi, I don't understand why for you and your lists the italian women are the only ones with a double surname.. It's absurd for me.  dry.gif
Italian women keep the same last name after marriage!
So Maria Radaelli remains Maria Radaelli, and not also Granori.
Emma Morano remains only Emma Morano, without Martinuzzi.
Just in the obituary you can find in big "Emma Morano" and after, least "in Martinuzzi"...or, if housband already dead, "vedova Martinuzzi" (widow of Martinuzzi).
So why in your lists and tables, you don't return the only origial surname to all the italian women?

I'd like to read Maria Radaelli, Emma Morano, Maria Gravigi, Rosa Frau, Rosa Bandini... and not their husbands!  dry.gif

tongue.gif  tongue.gif  tongue.gif

I hope you'll approve this smile.gif

Hey, RaroZero. l understand your point, it is alot easier to read and write their names with only one surname.

However, l think it's a rule to have a person's full name; the name that they have on their passports and papers.

Any name changes on the lists wouldn't be consistent with their official names. lt might create confusion, perhaps.

lmagine if we, out of convenience, started writing Jiro Kim on the lists biggrin.gif

No, that's not correct because on passports and ID the name is only Maria Redaelli because Granoli is the surname of her husband...
Top
Futurist
Posted: Feb 15 2013, 06:41 PM


To the limit!


Group: Trusted Members
Posts: 11,057
Member No.: 1,176
Joined: 6-September 11



QUOTE (RaroZero @ Feb 10 2013, 12:10 PM)
lmagine if we, out of convenience, started writing Jiro Kim on the lists  biggrin.gif

Jiro Kim might be a cool "gangster name" for Jiroemon Kimura. smile.gif

This post has been edited by Futurist on Feb 15 2013, 06:41 PM
Top
RaroZero
Posted: Feb 15 2013, 10:53 PM


Youngster


Group: Members
Posts: 15
Member No.: 1,470
Joined: 4-February 13



QUOTE (davzar @ Feb 15 2013, 09:38 AM)
QUOTE (OscarLake @ Feb 15 2013, 08:47 AM)
QUOTE (RaroZero @ Feb 10 2013, 12:10 PM)
Hi, I don't understand why for you and your lists the italian women are the only ones with a double surname.. It's absurd for me. dry.gif
Italian women keep the same last name after marriage!
So Maria Radaelli remains Maria Radaelli, and not also Granori.
Emma Morano remains only Emma Morano, without Martinuzzi.
Just in the obituary you can find in big "Emma Morano" and after, least "in Martinuzzi"...or, if housband already dead, "vedova Martinuzzi" (widow of Martinuzzi).
So why in your lists and tables, you don't return the only origial surname to all the italian women?

I'd like to read Maria Radaelli, Emma Morano, Maria Gravigi, Rosa Frau, Rosa Bandini... and not their husbands! dry.gif

tongue.gif tongue.gif tongue.gif

I hope you'll approve this smile.gif

Hey, RaroZero. l understand your point, it is alot easier to read and write their names with only one surname.

However, l think it's a rule to have a person's full name; the name that they have on their passports and papers.

Any name changes on the lists wouldn't be consistent with their official names. lt might create confusion, perhaps.

lmagine if we, out of convenience, started writing Jiro Kim on the lists biggrin.gif

No, that's not correct because on passports and ID the name is only Maria Redaelli because Granoli is the surname of her husband...

Exactly!
On passaport and on documents there are only the original surname!
Top
gijs412
Posted: Feb 16 2013, 05:52 AM


Jeanne Calment


Group: Trusted Members
Posts: 1,295
Member No.: 1,046
Joined: 4-November 10



Dutch woman also have double surnames.
When a Dutch woman named "Katrijn van Aert" for example marries a man named "Peerke in 't Ven", her name will become: "Katrijn in 't Ven-van Aert".
Because she will get her husbands name first and then her own name.
Top
paniscus
Posted: Feb 16 2013, 06:46 AM


Youngster


Group: Trusted Members
Posts: 54
Member No.: 1,437
Joined: 8-December 12



You have to consider that the use of the birth surname as the only legally valid one is quite recent in Italy. I think it was stated in law in the Seventies, but it took several more years to be widely adopted in the common use.

So, many of the Italian elderly ladies (who typically married quite young, having done nothing socially significant before, and having mostly remained housewives after marriage) are deeply linked to the old use, and they are actually known by their married name by most of their acquaintances. If you go in a small town and ask about a very old lady by her maiden name, you'll probably meet people who don't wnow who you are talking of!

Obviously things are deeply changed for more recent generations (mainly because women marry later in age, are used to have an independent social life befor marriage, and work in contexts that have nothing to do with the family). Even my mother, who is 70, uses her surname, but it was natural for her, because she always worked, in a place where she had to sign official documents by her own, and nobody knew her husband! For me, it would have been simply unconceivable, the idea of changing legal identity at 30 or more!

I'm the first agreeing with you in NOT liking at all the "social" use of the married name when it has no legal validity: it's a completely unfamiliar thing for me, and I wish it will be completely abandoned in a few years...

...but don't forget that "longevity recordwomen", 40 years ago, were already old, and they already had spent MOST of their lives with the husband's name!

Lisa

This post has been edited by paniscus on Feb 16 2013, 06:47 AM
Top
blaz1
Posted: Feb 16 2013, 06:50 AM


Top Ten


Group: Trusted Members
Posts: 434
Member No.: 1,213
Joined: 20-November 11



In Slovenia, the double surnames for women (= when a wife takes her husband's surname plus keep hers) are rare. This tradition was almost unknown before WWII. The vast majority of women, married before WWII (and decades later, to today) took her husband's surname. For example Katarina Marinič (maiden surname Gabršček). .
Top
dakota86
Posted: Feb 16 2013, 07:00 AM


World's Oldest


Group: Trusted Members
Posts: 534
Member No.: 1,126
Joined: 9-May 11



Very interesting question RaroZero (welcome in the forum)...

I think the same like you...when I have edited pages on wikipedia I have noticed that in the most of countries, women lose their surname after marriage and take their husband's one.
So I consider that was correct specify also maiden name...in Spain, people have two surname (one from father, one for mother) so in the italian wiki page about Spanish supercentenarian I have written both.

I think eng wiki should be change way to report the name of Italian women sc... wink.gif
Top
ryoung122
Posted: Feb 16 2013, 05:06 PM


Senior Advisor


Group: Advisor
Posts: 5,027
Member No.: 17
Joined: 23-October 07



QUOTE (RaroZero @ Feb 10 2013, 12:10 PM)
Hi, I don't understand why for you and your lists the italian women are the only ones with a double surname.. It's absurd for me. dry.gif
Italian women keep the same last name after marriage!
So Maria Radaelli remains Maria Radaelli, and not also Granori.
Emma Morano remains only Emma Morano, without Martinuzzi.
Just in the obituary you can find in big "Emma Morano" and after, least "in Martinuzzi"...or, if housband already dead, "vedova Martinuzzi" (widow of Martinuzzi).
So why in your lists and tables, you don't return the only origial surname to all the italian women?

I'd like to read Maria Radaelli, Emma Morano, Maria Gravigi, Rosa Frau, Rosa Bandini... and not their husbands! dry.gif

tongue.gif tongue.gif tongue.gif

I hope you'll approve this smile.gif

First of all, this also done for cases from Spain, and generally nations where a woman marries but doesn't "take the husband's name".
Top
ryoung122
Posted: Feb 16 2013, 05:14 PM


Senior Advisor


Group: Advisor
Posts: 5,027
Member No.: 17
Joined: 23-October 07



QUOTE (paniscus @ Feb 16 2013, 06:46 AM)
You have to consider that the use of the birth surname as the only legally valid one is quite recent in Italy. I think it was stated in law in the Seventies, but it took several more years to be widely adopted in the common use.

So, many of the Italian elderly ladies (who typically married quite young, having done nothing socially significant before, and having mostly remained housewives after marriage) are deeply linked to the old use, and they are actually known by their married name by most of their acquaintances. If you go in a small town and ask about a very old lady by her maiden name, you'll probably meet people who don't wnow who you are talking of!

Obviously things are deeply changed for more recent generations (mainly because women marry later in age, are used to have an independent social life befor marriage, and work in contexts that have nothing to do with the family). Even my mother, who is 70, uses her surname, but it was natural for her, because she always worked, in a place where she had to sign official documents by her own, and nobody knew her husband! For me, it would have been simply unconceivable, the idea of changing legal identity at 30 or more!

I'm the first agreeing with you in NOT liking at all the "social" use of the married name when it has no legal validity: it's a completely unfamiliar thing for me, and I wish it will be completely abandoned in a few years...

...but don't forget that "longevity recordwomen", 40 years ago, were already old, and they already had spent MOST of their lives with the husband's name!

Lisa

Greetings,

I appreciate the perspective of someone who is a little more mature. Too many kids today think the world began the day they were born. rolleyes.gif
Top
Daniel
Posted: Feb 20 2013, 08:49 AM


Jeanne Calment


Group: Trusted Members
Posts: 1,480
Member No.: 1,099
Joined: 27-March 11



It can be annoying sometimes and makes the names harder to write and say, but I think its just for completeness.

As for Italian women (despite being born in the US) there is Marie-Josephine Gaudette, but she has a double-barrelled first name instead laugh.gif



Top
paniscus
Posted: Feb 20 2013, 09:09 AM


Youngster


Group: Trusted Members
Posts: 54
Member No.: 1,437
Joined: 8-December 12



QUOTE (Daniel @ Feb 20 2013, 08:49 AM)
As for Italian women (despite being born in the US) there is Marie-Josephine Gaudette, but she has a double-barrelled first name instead laugh.gif

By the word "barrelled" do you mean the hyphen? The symbol as " - " ???

It does NOT exist in modern Italian use (I think it's a residual of French origin), and I think it would not be accepted in present registrations.

Many Italian women have composit names (mostly with Maria- or Anna- as the first term), and use them completely... but usually they are written apart, or simply connected as a single name: Maria Grazia, Maria Cristina, Anna Laura, but also Annamaria, Annalisa, Mariangela, Mariarosa, and going on.

A similar thing happens with male composit names, most of them formed wit "Gian-" (shortening for "Giovanni", as John) or "Pier-" (a variation of "Pietro", as Peter): so we have a lot of men named Giancarlo, Gianluca, Piergiorgio, Pierluigi, and similar, also written as "Gian Carlo" or "Pier Luigi", but no hyphen or dash at all.

Never seen a hyphen in a modern document!

Lisa

Top
Daniel
Posted: Feb 21 2013, 07:09 AM


Jeanne Calment


Group: Trusted Members
Posts: 1,480
Member No.: 1,099
Joined: 27-March 11



QUOTE (paniscus @ Feb 20 2013, 09:09 AM)
QUOTE (Daniel @ Feb 20 2013, 08:49 AM)
As for Italian women (despite being born in the US) there is Marie-Josephine Gaudette, but she has a double-barrelled first name instead  laugh.gif

By the word "barrelled" do you mean the hyphen? The symbol as " - " ???

It does NOT exist in modern Italian use (I think it's a residual of French origin), and I think it would not be accepted in present registrations.

Many Italian women have composit names (mostly with Maria- or Anna- as the first term), and use them completely... but usually they are written apart, or simply connected as a single name: Maria Grazia, Maria Cristina, Anna Laura, but also Annamaria, Annalisa, Mariangela, Mariarosa, and going on.

A similar thing happens with male composit names, most of them formed wit "Gian-" (shortening for "Giovanni", as John) or "Pier-" (a variation of "Pietro", as Peter): so we have a lot of men named Giancarlo, Gianluca, Piergiorgio, Pierluigi, and similar, also written as "Gian Carlo" or "Pier Luigi", but no hyphen or dash at all.

Never seen a hyphen in a modern document!

Lisa

Yeah, I mean connected by a hyphen, also known as a 'hyphenated name'.

That is how her name is written on Wikipedia's list of living supercentenarians and Table E. In fact, I have never seen her name written in any other way in English.

Interestingly, there is no hyphen on her Italian Wikipedia page now that I look at it.

I didn't know her name wasn't written with a hyphen in Italian though, so thanks for explaining it to me smile.gif
Top
Pascar
Posted: May 29 2014, 09:55 AM


Supercentenarian


Group: Trusted Members
Posts: 170
Member No.: 1,035
Joined: 24-September 10



About Sister Cecilia I read:

- "Marie Josephine Clarice Gaudette" on her birth certificate,
- "Marie-Josephine Clarisse Gaudette" on her baptism-confirmation act,
- "Marie Josephine Clarice Gaudette" on her American passport,
- "Marie Josephine Clarice Gaudette" on her residence certificate.

So we can notice an hyphen between Marie and Josephine, but also Clarisse (not Clarice) on the only religious act, because it is in French. The entire act is in French.

But we have to consider just civil acts.

So her civil/legal name is "Marie Josephine Clarice Gaudette", without the hyphen, with Clarice, not Clarisse.
Top
0 User(s) are reading this topic (0 Guests and 0 Anonymous Users)
0 Members:
DealsFor.me - The best sales, coupons, and discounts for you

Topic Options



Hosted for free by InvisionFree* (Terms of Use: Updated 2/10/2010) | Powered by Invision Power Board v1.3 Final © 2003 IPS, Inc.
Page creation time: 0.0967 seconds | Archive