Savage Orc Deathstar, wall of characters

So I don't normally like deathstar type approaches, but in looking for synergy, the savage ward save boosted to 5+ is pretty amazing.

I was thinking:
Level 4 shaman with shrunken, fencers.
Savage Lord with, ASF sword, glittering scales, and +3 MR talisman. (does this fit points wise? no book in front of me)
Savage big boss with the 2+ armour, + great weapon
Savage big boss with great weapon + dragonbane gem
Savage big boss with great weapon
Black orc BSB, with banner of discipline.
40 savages with spear.

The idea is that you run it 5 wide, leave the command in the front rank with lord and 2+ armour guy on the edges. Then when you make it into combat, make way with 2 of the savage big bosses. Leave the champ in front. BO BSB and Shaman stay in second rank.

Savages with spears because there are no rank n file in the front rank for AHW bonus, but some spear attacks MIGHT help. Not worth the points for big uns.

The BSB is protected, opponents have to allocate attacks, and everything they are hitting is T5 with a 5+ ward. The attacks coming back will be horrifying.

The unit has equivalent of MR5.

Obvious weaknesses include:
- unit deleting spells like pit of shades and purple sun. - no counter to this; a rock scissors paper thing.
- sword of anti-heroes. Ouch! Hope the lord can kill him with ASF.
- Frenzy baiting. Bring plenty of chaff killers.

The army would have to be constructed around this, with an abundance of chaff to keep away their chaff from diverting. Double doom diver for more chaff clearance.

Not much would be able to beat it in a straight up fight, and it will stick around with steadfast for a long time.

It is one hell of a points investment and is the definition of all eggs in one basket, but the free 5++ is a very very tempting synergy.

Thoughts?

You can try it for fun, but I don't think it will work against someone who knows how to divert. The big drawback here is frenzy. These units have to pursue/overrun, so if you charge the diverter you have on your front, you will move wherever he wants. If not, your super unit will be stucked for one turn.

That's the problem of unit with frenzy. And you are putting tons of points in there, so is even more tempting to do something like that.

Why not go all out?

Put them all on boars!

The cavalry base is 25 mm wide as well, so the 5 of them would fit in the front.

Then they would have 5+/5++ base.

NICE!

Aye, frenzy overrun is a real problem. Best to hope you can clear enough of their chaff and stick enough of your in front of theirs so the deathstar can get where it needs to. Then again, Hand of Gork is always nice for this too..

Heh, boars would be nice, make the unit very very costly though if you want to get a LOS roll. Uber deathstar!

Actually, on second thought, a 5+ armour save doesn't really add much. Only handy vs. str 3/4, and str 3/4 already struggle with the tough 5.
I reckon waiting for the opponent to strike first will be quite a nerve wracking experience, but if enough get through, wow will you bring them the pain.

why not? you will still get 3 extra ranks of attacks with a spear horde so making those attacks higher strength and WS is definitely worth it imo. Especially since the big un upgrade is so cheap.

edit:
sry I forgot you're not going horde . In that case the points might be better spent elsewhere

This post has been edited by Piccolo on Jun 17 2012, 07:06 AM

Every one uses the Shrunken head to save their savages that cost 11 points if they are big'uns with 2 choppas.

Everyone seems to agree that you need a Lord level shaman with fencers tot carry the head in order to be survivable.

Why not use the increased ward save to save a Savage Boar Boy instead that costs 24 points with the big'uns upgrade and two choppas?

Putting a shaman on a boar also gives him the protection needed to be able to take him down to a hero level.

I know people take Savages 'cause they're a core choice, but still I like the idea of a Hero level shaman on a boar with the head (he now has a 5+/5++) running in a unit of 9-ish S.O. Board Boys with 2-3 Savage Big Bosses (6X2)

Give the Big Bosses some armor, get them down to 3+/5++, and go chop some heads.

500-600 point unit for sure... but one hell of a death star.

(Add some MR onto the wardsaves, already immune to psych, insane amount of attacks, add a magic banner, get lucky and roll " 'ere we go!" for the shaman, this unit would HURT!)

Big Uns upgrade is not a BAD expenditure of points, and might be worth it if keeping them on foot and there is nothing else needed to spend the points on in core, but I don't think it adds a whole lot to the unit, given that as you pointed out, they are not horde.

Savage boars certainly make the ward save relatively cheaper, but on this deathstar all the unit itself is actually doing, is adding a wound pool for magic and shooting. The boars make each model slightly more survivable for 2-3x the cost per model.

In thinking about it though, movement 7 and swiftstride would make the deathstar far more likely to get into a combat it wants to. Perhaps points well spent?
I would probably be inclined to leave the character setup as is, but with boars, and run the unit with the savage boars with no upgrades just to keep em 'cheap'.
As stated this leaves the unit coming out of special points, which is a pity, because there is not much in core that really helps.

Unless.. it becomes a balls to the wall cavalry list. Max out on wolf riders, mount the deathstar, and zoom into combat asap!

I ran a "surprise, all cav!" army versus skaven (my opponent is very fond of the dreaded thirteenth)

the problem is with maxed wolf riders and spider riders you have no anvils.

the cav fared quiet well, and i lost on VPs with my general breaking on turn 6.

Try it and see theres not much that could stand up to it and if you can avoid being redirected or 6th spelled you might crush 1-2 units with this Deathstar.

Ok,

So there is probably an obvious answer that I am missing but....

Why can't you put the L4 SO + all the other savage orc character awesomeness, in a unit of normal orcs?

All the characters still get the benefit of the shrunken head and they're the ones who will be seeing combat. All the unit does is add bodies at the rear and normal orc bodies are both cheaper (much), have an armor save (albeit a crap one) and come with the added bonus of not being frenzied.

Yes the unit is not immune to psych but you do have a rerollable Ld 10 in the unit (Warboss + BSB + Banner of discipline).

I'm missing something aren't I?

Well, here's the way I see it:

-Your Boyz not having Frenzy isn't an advantage in this case - the unit still has to make Ld checks to prevent charges as long as any model in the unit has Frenzy, as well as having to make Overruns/Pursuits when they win, without the advantage of the extra attack.

-The more bodies you have in the unit with a Warpaint save, the more the Shrunken Head Shaman justifies his price.

-SOBU's make excellent stand-ins when characters die.

-The Armor Save that regular Boyz can get is, at best, a 5+, so against a combo charge (not so hard to get stuck in when the combats you win put you out of place) those ranks will disappear much more quickly than those with a 5++ Ward Save. If you choose the AHW option for your regular Boyz, then they will die even more easily, while not having as many attacks as SOBU's to fend off their attackers. Not to mention that those attacks will not be as strong.

Basically, if you're going to make a SO character wall, then you may as well go balls to it.

This post has been edited by DISCIPLE O' UD URA ZAHUBU on Jun 18 2012, 05:55 AM

Does the unit have to pursue/overrun if the unit is not frenzied?

It's my memory that the characters are bound by the units rules not vice-verse (although I could be wrong - don't have the rulebook in front of me).

I thought the point of this unit is to be a one turn death star with all the characters making way to the front line. It's damage output would be considerable and the enemy would only be able to fight against WS5/6, T5, 5++. The quality of the 'troops behind' almost doesn't matter.

Yes, it's not designed to be on the pointy end of a combo charger from multiple elite units connecting on multiple fronts - not many units are. This is also something that is very difficult to pull off against the O&G with our solid battle line and multiple re-directors / chaff.

It seems the real disadvantage to running frenzied characters in a non-frenzied unit is that perhaps each character needs to take a frenzy test separately? Does anyone know how this works under 8th?

The role of the troops is just to be present to break steadfast and add static combat res. Normal Orcs are 5pts to savages 8 (9 really with the almost compulsory AHW). And if you go Big Uns then the normal Big Uns can take a magic banner, leaving your BSB free to 'tool up'.

So a unit of 35 Orcs (5 wide and 7 deep) is 175 + command whilst 35 Savage Orcs will hit you for 315 + command. I'd lean towards normal Orcs.

Thoughts?

I think it's too expensive if you intend to fill the frontrank with characters. A cheaper way to do this, instead of using Orcs, would be to use Night Goblins with nets and having Big Bosses/Warbosses in the front. They will in theory be T5 just as the Orcs, but a Warboss Goblin will have 3W and 4 attacks for practically the same cost as an Orc Big Boss.

What about a wall of T5 characters in a unit of NG with nets, then?

If you have 4 orcs they are the same width as 5 goblins right?

25 NG, no command, nets = 120

4 orcs big bosses w/ GW = 236

An invitation to the cheeze fest = 0


Could work (?)





This post has been edited by Lexington on Jun 18 2012, 01:03 PM

Is that legal? Page 98 in the BRB states the rules for characters joining units with different base sizes, but this exact issue is not covered.

What is sure is that even though it sort of fits, I wouldn't really consider it fitting neatly.