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Newz: Da Warpath's 8th Conversion Competition: Rank and File Edition - ENTER HERE!

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 Forest Goblin Spider Riders., How best to use them?
Snikpik
Posted: Feb 13 2012, 12:45 PM


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Largely touted as being inferior to Goblin Wolf Riders but claimed by many to still maintain a role in an Orc and Goblin army. How do you field and use yours? Are there any circumstance where you think Spider riders are invaluable?

Edit: please try to keep this thread abou spider riders and not the old spider rider vs wolf rider deabte. smile.gif

This post has been edited by Snikpik on Feb 13 2012, 01:32 PM
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mickkk666
Posted: Feb 13 2012, 01:10 PM


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I think their best use is in Siege scenarios! In other situations, wolf riders are better. For fluff they can be pretty funny, but wolf riders have all the love because they are better in almost every aspect.
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theorox
Posted: Feb 13 2012, 02:31 PM


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I like them a lot, 2 units of 5 with musicians are 150p together, and are good redirectors/warmachine hunters or even flankers! smile.gif Poison really helps a lot in my experience, and zooming through terrain (and over buildings) is amazing. In larger games I'd run them 10 strong with FC. That's 160p I think, wich is OK and take a bit of shooting from Warmachine protectors, archers etc.

Theo
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Groznit Goregut
Posted: Feb 13 2012, 02:44 PM


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While not as fast as other fast cav we can take (won't get into it), they aren't slow! They can also move through a lot of terrain. I think they excel at attacking buildings. The rider and mount gets to attack there. The higher init and Poison makes them more reliable in combat, too! I'd feel better having them go take out war machine crew.

I think they are used about the same as other fast cav. Oh, and bows allows them to get pot shots off at things. There are still lone characters that can be hurt.
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Noisy Assassin
Posted: Feb 13 2012, 02:56 PM


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I run all goblins, and it's mostly because I have more spiders than wolves, but I run 8 spiders as a bunker for my general and BSB. Giving up on the extra movement and armor is sad, but I can run them through terrain without having to take tests on my very important characters, and at least once they have scuttled over an impassible wall to get their bubble where it needed to be.
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Arfa
Posted: Feb 14 2012, 12:54 PM


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QUOTE (Noisy Assassin @ Feb 14 2012, 01:56 AM)
I run all goblins, and it's mostly because I have more spiders than wolves, but I run 8 spiders as a bunker for my general and BSB. Giving up on the extra movement and armor is sad, but I can run them through terrain without having to take tests on my very important characters, and at least once they have scuttled over an impassible wall to get their bubble where it needed to be.

This seriously made me shudder, no offence dude but shouldnt your general and bsb be a little more protected than being surrounded by 8 T3 5+sv wounds? Thats like, one round of S4 shooting/magic and their gone, and you're left with two delicious and very important characters in there. Id be considering upping the unit to at least 15 (13) or putting the characters on foot, they are vital to your success especially with an all goblin list.

The problem with spider riders is that poison really isnt THAT effective when you've got so few attacks. In fact you have the same chance at poisoning something as you do failing a terrain test with the wolves, so much of a muchness for me. If the guys on top got poison then sure, that'd be much better (at least the 2nd rank would get poison then) but alas no luck. Its not the movement issue for me either but more the save issue, 4+ is far better than 5+. Yes they can assault buildings well but then again an orc or savage orc is still better at it, they wont get there as fast perhaps but they'll be far better once they do.

Theyre still good diverters and general fast cav nuisances, and they can be handy to chuck into a giant when youve got nothing else to do in hope of that magical 6 with four dice, but ultimately they're just not as good as the other options. Naked boar boyz are 3pts better for twice the survivability & damage output (and can be bumped up to 7pts more to get even more of both) and the wolves are cheaper and better. Hell for pure diverters you can just run wolves naked, you cant with the spiders they have to have the shield and spears, most likely because thats what they have on the models Im guessing!

The biggest differences I guess are the two special characters (Snagla & Gitilla). Snagla is kinda cool actually, and he turns the unit into a lot more dangerous and unpredictable unit, striking from anywhere capable of doing some serious damage to the flanks of a unit where they work best (no step up). Whilst he's a bit of a glass cannon, S4 multiple wounds can really hurt things like Ogres and with poison as well you could even take down something big. Against Empire theyre even better, popping up from the flanks and chasing down warmachines or running into the back of a unit of spearmen and loving that juicy hatred. Most importantly they can start out of LoS to enemy handgunners, although if you do include them in your army Id suggest taking the Scroll of Shielding as well to protect them from a magic missile flying their way, it could mean the difference between negating their warmachines/flankcharging or your 200+pt unit disappearing in smoke.

Arfa da Grate
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Squigkikka
Posted: Feb 14 2012, 02:54 PM


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A fast cav bunker hiding behind other units across the field is not a good target for shooting, and magic missiles are relatively few, perhaps spent better on more immediate threats.

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Noisy Assassin
Posted: Feb 14 2012, 03:31 PM


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QUOTE (Arfa @ Feb 14 2012, 06:54 AM)
This seriously made me shudder, no offence dude but shouldnt your general and bsb be a little more protected than being surrounded by 8 T3 5+sv wounds? Thats like, one round of S4 shooting/magic and their gone, and you're left with two delicious and very important characters in there. Id be considering upping the unit to at least 15 (13) or putting the characters on foot, they are vital to your success especially with an all goblin list.

Granted, I haven't played many games with the gobs (5 to be precise), but the fragility of the bunker was only a problem one of the games against Woodies. That was mostly my fault though, as I forgot to scout-block and he put two units of Waywatchers behind my lines!

Otherwise the mobility more than outweighs how fragile they are. A unit of 15 would be way to hard to maneuver with, and is really getting up there in points. Problem with putting them on foot is that in 3/5 games that I've played there would have been enemies that could get a relatively easy charge against a static block. I also play in a very mobile, chaff-oriented way, which means I want my bubble to move as the army does (speciffically, it needs to follow the Trolls). Once I get more models built I'll experiment with a more block-oriented strategy that can afford to have a static general, but I'm not looking forward to spending points on all the protective gear that comes along with a general and BSB that can get charged.

And, of course, as a caveat, I have only been playing the goblins as a casual army so far, so you may be more right about they getting ganked from afar in a tournament-type environment.
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Wechselbalg
Posted: Feb 14 2012, 04:52 PM


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Special rule and poison make them somewhat good. There is not much that can stop their movement - terrain wise. Plus they excel at siege scenarios. I think itīs not that easy to work them into a really competitive list but I have to admit my experience with the "new" book and 8th edition is a bit limited. Less than 100games means, I wont judge anything for the last time.
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Krysdagger
Posted: Feb 14 2012, 05:41 PM


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Just the other day, because I have the models and can do it, I fielded a unit of 40 Spider Riders w shield / spear ....

I added:
a Gobo Lord on Gigantic Spider - Armour of +3 T and impact hits
a BSB with banner of +1 leadership but unit can't use inspiring presence.

Yes, this was as expensive to field as you think it would be...


It was just for fun and for the shock effect ... I vanguarded forward and waited for the bottom of turn 1 for my turn...

The nearest unit of gobos failed animosity ... rolled a 1 .. threw some sticks at the spider riders ... they were unhurt, but retaliated by killing off 5 of the offending gobos ....

Anyway, sitting in the middle of the field for the start of turn 2 having done nothing ... bad .. they survived until turn 5 ... did get off one charge at one point but only 1 impact hit ...

All in all it was a fail (which was not unexpected), but it does have some fun potential .... next time with special character ... smile.gif

Krys
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Cannibalbob
Posted: Feb 14 2012, 06:46 PM


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QUOTE (Groznit Goregut @ Feb 13 2012, 02:44 PM)
The higher init and Poison makes them more reliable in combat, too! I'd feel better having them go take out war machine crew.

Poison is nifty, but not that amazing without a fair number of attacks, but the initiative boost is something that I don't think has been hit on enough in this thread. The higher initiative of the mount (which combines with the poison attacks) makes these guys a bit more useful in close combat than wolves. Sure, the wolves get armor saves, but you are not throwing a unit like this into combat and expecting to get multiple turns out of it. If you are charging with a unit like this then you are either flanking or engaging something you hope to do some damage against (skirmishers, other fast cav, tiny units, war machine crews, etc) and having I4 is a very good thing in this situation.

If the wolves were still ws4, as they once were, then I would agree that they outclass spider riders in every way. But now that they have the same combat stats as the spiders, but with lower initiative and no poison the spider riders get the edge in combat.
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Gorks_wundapantz
Posted: Feb 16 2012, 01:16 AM


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QUOTE (Cannibalbob @ Feb 14 2012, 06:46 PM)
If the wolves were still ws4, as they once were, then I would agree that they outclass spider riders in every way. But now that they have the same combat stats as the spiders, but with lower initiative and no poison the spider riders get the edge in combat.

if wolves were still ws4, the spiders would then be s4 as they were in 4th ed.
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sgu97bjd
Posted: Feb 16 2012, 09:50 PM


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I don't really use spider riders as they don't fit into the fluff of the rest of my army but i would definitely take them were it not for this. I don't think they are going to be as good as wolf riders at war machine hunting and missile support but i can still see a role for them.

Both Sneaky Stabbin and Gift of the Spider God from the little waaagh deck work very well with the spiders making the most of the poisoned attacks so if you can get them in a position to make a supporting attack in the flank (which with the strider abilities should be more than possible) they could easily turn a combat in your favour.

Also the Gigantic Spider mount is one of the best upgrades for any character in Warhammer i think. For 40 points you get +1 wound, +2 armour save & 3 Str 4 poisoned attacks at initiative 4 and a stomp. Add in a magic item or 2 and for around 100 points in total that’s a lot of attacks. If you put this guy in with some normal spider riders they can make pretty good monster / lone character hunters. The only shame is they can't get flaming attacks.

Would be interested to know if people have used them in this way or whether they think there are better ways of fulfilling these roles with other troops.
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rothgar13
Posted: Feb 16 2012, 10:25 PM


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A Gigantic Spider doesn't fit in well with a unit of Spider Riders. It's on a 40mm x 40mm base and is Monstrous Cavalry, whereas the normal Spider Riders are on 25mm x 50mm bases and are normal Cavalry. That means you don't get Look Out Sir! or anything of the like from putting a Gobbo Big Boss in there. You're better off running him out on his own (in fact, several people do this to good effect).

Unless you think you're going to win a building assault with them, they're almost strictly inferior to Wolf Riders. If you are going to assault a building, I hope that the garrison consists of Zombies or Skavenslaves, because Gobbos are trash in any combat when they don't have overwhelming numbers, and that a few WS3 S3 I4 Poisoned attacks won't change that.
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Cannibalbob
Posted: Feb 16 2012, 10:48 PM


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I thought the gigantic spider model was on a 50mm base? I was planning to convert one for my Night Gobbo army that is on a 50mm base. The model on the GW site looks like it is on a 50mm base to me, but I have not seen the model in person so I don't really know.
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