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Newz: Da Warpath's 9th Conversion Competition: Chariot Edition Edition - ENTER HERE!

Pages: (4) 1 2 [3] 4  ( Go to first unread post )

 My 2500 Gt List (testing), vs DE and HE so far
Shimmergloom
Posted: Aug 20 2011, 06:53 PM


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Maneuver is mainly meaningless now.

You get free wheels to charge, combat reforms, free reforms if you have a musician.

When your unit of 50 gets hit by magic or mortars and you lose 25, then you are not effective anymore.

When you lose that many from a unit of 100, then you don't care.

Also, 10 wide w/spears and the 3 big bosses, will give you always 25 spear attacks + 9 S6 big boss attacks. More if the enemy is wider than 5 wide. If they are in a horde, then you have 37 spear attacks. That's plenty to take out core infantry from other armies.

As far as taking out elite infantry, greenskins have nothing short of manglers or black orcs that can deal with chosen or regular chaos warriors or regen'd grave guard or what have you and even black orcs will die in droves to chaos warriors. They will almost die as fast as the night goblins do.

If you are 5 wide, then you get 15 spear attacks and you are still going to lose your night goblins just as fast.


Also it is key that you have the ranks to stay steadfast in any combat. A bunch of units with 5 ranks are not as good at denying your opponent steadfast if they lost a combat, vs one unit with 10 ranks are.

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Warlord Ghazak Gazhkull
Posted: Aug 20 2011, 07:00 PM


Motm july 2005, the goblin mad mod, WAAAGH!!
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Nice reports mate, but that dark elf army looked pretty week to me. I think it would have suffered badly against my gobbos. But that is mostly because my numbers are higher and compared to you I'm lucky with my warmachines.

I also prefer a 50 man unit compared to a 100 man unit, altough I started putting together a unit from 100 for in bigger games.

Ps: I like your arachnarok.
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Groznit Goregut
Posted: Aug 20 2011, 07:18 PM


Waaagh!
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QUOTE (Shimmergloom @ Aug 20 2011, 06:53 PM)
Maneuver is mainly meaningless now.

You get free wheels to charge,  combat reforms, free reforms if you have a musician.


I disagree with this. I think it's less important (and that's a good thing), but it's certainly not meaningless....


QUOTE (Shimmergloom @ Aug 20 2011, 06:53 PM)

When your unit of 50 gets hit by magic or mortars and you lose 25, then you are not effective anymore.

When you lose that many from a unit of 100, then you don't care.


This is true, but how often does that happen?

QUOTE (Shimmergloom @ Aug 20 2011, 06:53 PM)

As far as taking out elite infantry, greenskins have nothing short of manglers or black orcs that can deal with chosen or regular chaos warriors or regen'd grave guard or what have you and even black orcs will die in droves to chaos warriors.  They will almost die as fast as the night goblins do.


What about Snotling Pump Wagons? I always give mine the S5 and no armor save upgrade. Those can take out swaths of Chaos Warriors. We can take 4 of 'em. When it comes to regen saves, though, you need the flaming banner to deal with them effectively.

I think it's alright to go with huge units, but it's not necessary. Sure, it has it's pros, but it also has its cons. Same as with going with smaller options. I think they are both valid options, but I am preferring not to take a huge unit at this time.

@WGG: Thanks!

This post has been edited by Groznit Goregut on Aug 20 2011, 07:29 PM
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Squigkikka
Posted: Aug 20 2011, 08:18 PM


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You lose all credibility with me if you say maneuvering is pointless.
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Shimmergloom
Posted: Aug 20 2011, 09:42 PM


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Flanking doesn't cancel out steadfast. Having more ranks than the enemy does.

Hence having more ranks is much more important than out maneuvering them.

Also, even when you do flank them, they just take a ld test if they lose combat and then get to reform to face you. Or if they win combat, they get to automatically reform to face you.

Chaos warriors don't care if you rear charge them. You won't do anything to them of consequence and they will just reform to hit you full force the next turn.

QUOTE
This is true, but how often does that happen?


Read my reports. Basically every game.

And it even works in my favor just as often. Read my report vs other greenskins. He has me surrounded by a night goblin unit w/nets, arachnarok, savage orcs and a squig herd. I hold due to steadfast and then countercharge the next turn with my savage big'uns.

Now when I win combat, every single one of his units break, because my night goblins out rank him.

He clearly out maneuvered me, he clearly had me surrounded.

It didn't matter at all.
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Squigkikka
Posted: Aug 20 2011, 10:01 PM


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Those fat NG units wont get to see combat because they'll be fed diverters while the rest of his army picks apart whatever unit your General is in. Steadfast on LD5 isn't very impressive at all.

That is what outmaneuvering will do. Your opponents aren't good if they try to take down the big blocks at all if the General isn't dead. Of course it's gonna work if they smash all their units into something that is going to be steadfast on LD9 with rerolls.

This post has been edited by Squigkikka on Aug 20 2011, 10:02 PM
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Groznit Goregut
Posted: Aug 20 2011, 11:32 PM


Waaagh!
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If you are saying that maneuvering with 10 x 10 blocks of goblins doesn't matter, that's one thing (though I will take some issues with it), but if you say maneuvering doesn't matter with anything else, you are dead wrong.

Your example of Chaos Warriors is just wrong. I was fighting Chaos Warriors with my Orcs. A unit of 25 Night Goblins flanked them. I had more ranks than the CW. I negated any ranks he had. The Chaos Warriors didn't kill a lot of NG as there were only 3 in contact with the flank. The Chaos Warriors lost hard due to static CR and a few hits that I gave them. They weren't Steadfast and they broke. I ran them down. If you out-maneuver someone and at least one of your units has more ranks, then you win.

If I can hit your 10 x 10 Goblin horde with my 5 x 10 goblin unit and a unit of squig herders into your flank, I will probably win. I will probably have more ranks than you. You won't be Steadfast and will most likely break.

All it really takes is just one round where I can end up with more ranks than you and you lose Steadfast. It is quite possible to throw enough at your unit while I have a unit 5 wide that lets me have Steadfast and denies it to you. Or at least break even so no one has it.

Or let me take two units of 50 against your one unit of 100 and I'm sure that I'll break you.
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Warriorinthedark
Posted: Aug 21 2011, 06:32 AM


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Nice report, Groznit. No worries about our battle as we will definitely have another before long. I must say that I field my all NG list and it does include a 10x10 100-man unit led by 2 bosses and a shaman. It also has nets and, of course, full command. I am not sure of the experiences of some but from my experiences with this unit, they are very hitty and often kill a lot of enemy infantry either Str 3 or 4. With so many dice being rolled, it often is to much for smaller units to handle. With the movement rules in 8th ed, the unit is rather maneuverable and can easily reform and redeploy. I support it with 2 smaller units of 42 and 56 NG infantry and they are very well suited for fighting units of similar caliber although they can not take the casualties of the main unit. All in all, the combo of all three work very well. I am with you as well when it comes to the squig herds. I have a unit of 38 squigs and 22 herders and they are a great shock unit. In my games, they are great at getting in the flank and really causing a mess. When they die, they take a lot of folks with them.

The use of the chariots and the added support units really does allow for combined arms on the field and can really cause hell for the opponent. I would love to add more but the theme is what matters to me. A win is awesome but fighting as a possible underdog is priceless!
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Shimmergloom
Posted: Aug 21 2011, 09:10 AM


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[QUOTE]If I can hit your 10 x 10 Goblin horde with my 5 x 10 goblin unit and a unit of squig herders into your flank, I will probably win. I will probably have more ranks than you. You won't be Steadfast and will most likely break. [quote]

If you've charged me, then first I throw my nets at your squigs, then you throw your nets at my night goblins.

Your squigs at 5 wide and S4 now, which should kill 7 night goblins, I have 7 attacks back and should kill 1 squig back.

In the front since you charged you get 10 night goblin attacks and can kill 2 ng's after saves(less if you are forced to put attacks into any of my big bosses).

I now have 9 dead 91 left for 9 full ranks.

I strike back in the front with 25 S2 ng attacks and kill about 3.5 after saves. My 9 S5 big boss attacks kill 5 more. you've lost 8-9 from your ng unit and now have 8 ranks of around 41-42 ng's.

I lose combat, but am still steadfast.

Even when you get the extra 5 spear attacks from the front, I can keep whittling down your 50 ng's to the front faster than you can take ranks from me.

So you can keep hoping that I will fail a steadfast check, which is entirely possible, but the point still is that despite me being out maneuvered in this scenario, I'm still steadfast.

And in this scenario you can't win the steadfast fight, barring bad dice rolling, which could happen to either of us and shouldn't be expected to happen.

If the ng's are in the flank and the squigs are in the front after round 1 we would each have 9 ranks. Which would be better for you, but you would really have to hope I broke, because in round 2, you'd be down to 6-7 squigs, which I should wipe out in round 2 of the fight and there goes your fighting strength.
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Squigkikka
Posted: Aug 21 2011, 09:22 AM


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If you include Night Goblin Bosses for another 100p, well, that's another two wolf chariots for a 2D6 S5 +2 impact hits! That's 9 impact hits and 8 kills. Then you can include the crew aswell, which is about 3-4 kills more.

It'd would be enough to tip the scales and match you in ranks, which would break steadfast... but his units aren't all stuck in one big fat unit, and so they can support and do other things, fulfilling a lot of different roles.

Or better yet, for those 100p I'll buy two units of diverters and place them in front of the fat NG block so you wont get anywhere while I mop up the rest of your army. Steadfast on 5 wont see you holding any combats. Or 6, if you include Night Goblin Bosses.

You're paying 475 for that block and it's not going to see combat until I want it to.

This post has been edited by Squigkikka on Aug 21 2011, 09:35 AM
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Shimmergloom
Posted: Aug 21 2011, 09:31 AM


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QUOTE


Savages are fine but how do you avoid being hit in the flank by a chariot if you haven't got support units? That removes your frenzy...


I forgot to reply to this.

Assuming a chariot hits me in the flank, how does this mean I lose frenzy?

First of all I would have 9-12 S5 attacks coming back at the chariot and I would most likely try to make way my general to the chariot to ensure it was destroyed outright.

And since it charged me, I don't have to overrun and it's destroyed, so I don't lose frenzy no matter how many savages it managed to kill. Which since I am T4 with a 5+ ward, won't be as many as you expect and really makes it no guarantee that it can even win combat, even if it isn't destroyed.
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Shimmergloom
Posted: Aug 21 2011, 09:40 AM


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QUOTE (Squigkikka @ Aug 21 2011, 09:22 AM)
If you include Night Goblin Bosses for another 100p, well, that's another two wolf chariots. Or 12 more squigs which means he can deploy 7 wide for 6 more attacks, for example, for a total of 21 S5 attacks. That'd be enough to tip the scales and match you in ranks, which would break steadfast.

Or better yet, for those 100p I'll buy two units of diverters and place them in front of the fat NG block so you wont get anywhere while I mop up the rest of your army. Steadfast on 5 wont see you holding any combats. Or 6, if you include Night Goblin Bosses.

You're paying 475 for that block and it's not going to see combat until I want it to.

I have a goblin big boss in there, I am ld7 even if outside my general's range.

That's an average dice score. Odds go up dramatically if I am in general's range and almost go up to being a given if my bsb is also in range.

You also want to pump more units into me to try and change things. Well I can do that too, since I have a 2nd night goblin horde, or a true orc horde, plus my savages, arachnarok or trolls and 2 manglers and my own chariots or pump wagons.

I can fit all those things in there too.

The thing is, when my mangler's go through your unit of 30 orcs or 50 ngs, you feel the hurt.

When you spin a mangler through my unit of 100ng's, I can shrug it off.

Super magic will hurt us both equally since any super magic cast will want to aim for the unit with your general in it first and there's nothing either of us can do to stop that.

But mangler's, mortar's and gunners will often shoot up units to make them panic. And your 50ng's will panic long before my 100ng's will.

And it's better to not take a panic test at all, then to take one on ld5, 7 or 9.
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BorkBork
Posted: Aug 21 2011, 09:47 AM


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QUOTE (Shimmergloom @ Aug 20 2011, 06:53 PM)
Maneuver is mainly meaningless now.


if you say that you are basically saying O&G are meaningless.
As we cant stand up head to head against a lot of thing.

My view of 8th is that you need a good mix big & small, anvils, hammers & support.
And the one who moves wins.

but back on topic:


nice report groznit. interesting read. gratz on the win.





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Squigkikka
Posted: Aug 21 2011, 09:47 AM


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LD7 or LD9 doesn't matter when you need snake eyes. Do the combat again including two wolf chariots, flanking and breaking ranks. You're losing bigtime, you're not steadfast, and it costs exactly the same while being incredibly flexible.

You gonna bring another 475 unit into it? No, sorry, you can't. I've played 50p worth of fast cav in front of it and it has to charge it first and then reform to expose its flank.

It's the same with your Generals block. Fast cav unit for 50p, angle it away, you overrun and I charge you in the flank because Frenzy has to overrun and pursue. Your deathstar is lost and with it your LD and Reroll.

If a player lets Manglers reach his units, then he's not good. The same goes for Manglers hitting 100 Night Goblins. Who is so stupid that he does that? It's pointless. Aim it for the Arachnarok or Savage Orcs instead. Same goes for Magic. If the opposing player targets my Night Goblins with superspells, I'll gladly let them through because they shouldn't be priority in my lists.
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Shimmergloom
Posted: Aug 21 2011, 10:14 AM


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2 wolf chariots cannot break my ranks.

And 2 wolf chariots cannot kill enough of my guys to make me need to roll on snake eyes.

And if you want to throw them into the fray, then now you are committing 4 units to take out 1 of mine. And you still have no guarantee that you will even break me.

In the previous scenario I had 91 ng's left.

Assume you got lucky and both chariots, spears and squigs all made their random charges and all somehow got to me in isolation, because somehow I forgot about the rest of my army.

Then your 2 chariots do 9 impact hits on average and will kill about 9-10 more night goblins total after wolf and goblin attacks.

So after throwing ALL that into the fray and me somehow letting it happen and not putting a mangler or troll out there to stop it, then we both equal 8 ranks and I don't have steadfast. This is a very narrow margin based on average rolls. If I kill 2 more night goblins to the front, then I am again steadfast 8 ranks to 7.

Also, my 2nd mangler already killed your wolfriders a long time ago and I had an arachnarok protecting the flank from those chariots to begin with. Because I still have a ton of units, only mine are bigger and stick around longer.

And if I didn't then I just charge them and then combat reform to face whatever direction I want after wiping the unit out in combat.

Either way, if you are allowed to pile more units into this scenario, then so am I.

QUOTE
As we cant stand up head to head against a lot of thing.


And this is entirely true. Show me anything we have that can stand toe to toe vs 30+ chaos warriors + characters and buffed by 2 war shrines.

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