Warmachine/scout Hunters, Squig Hoppers vs. Spider Riders

Trying to figure out what would be a better option for warmachine / small scout unit hunting. Squig hoppers and Spider riders have the same points value.

Squig Hopper pros (+) and cons (-)
+ 2 S 5 attacks
+ WS 4
+ Immune to Psychology (aka Immune to Panic)
+ Skirmishers (shooting - 1 to hit)
- Skirmishers ( no ranks, no disruption)
- Random Movement
- Squishy ( T 3, no AS)

Spider Riders
+ Fast Cavalry
+ Short Bows
+ Striders
+ Poison Attacks (spiders)
- Also Squishy ( T 3, 6+ AS)
- Low WS / Low S
- Low Ld (panic prone)

I'd like your opinions and experianced thus far in 8th ed.

Squig Hoppers have an average move of 10.5", Spiders move 14". Spiders have Vanguard giving you a free 12" move. A big unit of Spiders can disrupt where as a unit of hoppers wont. Spiders have a save to prevent being spammed with small-arms fire. Finally Spiders count towards core, where Hoppers count towards Special.

So yeah, Spider/Wolf riders all the way for me.

Arfa da Grate

My beloved squig hoppers have been taken from my army case for the duration of 8th ed
With so many units having a larger charge range, their 3D6 is more of a liability than benefit now, along with TLoS and striking at initiative in combat.

For warmachines, I would take wolves (faster) or Orc boarboyz (durable, hitty but pricey).

RoV

The rule that hurt them the absolute worst is step-up. The only way they won fights/survived last ed was by killing everything in base contact (which wasnt too hard admittedly) so that they had maybe one or two attacks back. WS4 T3 no save is not hard to kill, and when you're fighting in two ranks you can almost guarantee that they will die horridly.

Arfa da Grate

The rule that hurt them the absolute worst is step-up. The only way they won fights/survived last ed was by killing everything in base contact (which wasnt too hard admittedly) so that they had maybe one or two attacks back. WS4 T3 no save is not hard to kill, and when you're fighting in two ranks you can almost guarantee that they will die horridly.

Arfa da Grate

my issue with this is warmachine crew is not going to rank up. And a skirmishing unit of scouts is most likely not going to kill 5-10 squig hoppers.

So for what they are being used for (warmachines and skirmishers/scouts), is there really a huge drop off. You actually the same number of attacks at a higher strength and weapon skill with a slightly worse survivability.

Against the average warmachine crew, a unit of squig hoppers will get 10 WS4 S5 attacks. A unit of spider riders will get 5 WS2 S4 attacks (on the charge) and 5 WS3 S3 Poison attacks. Even with the warmachines striking first (but not always) three crew members can at most kill 3 squigs or spiders. I don't know if it's just me but I think squig hoppers are getting a bum rap based on theoryhammer here.

I myself take spider riders x5 plus a big boss on a giant spider. I find this works well for warmachine removal with the combination of the vanguard role and Waaggh can mean combat in round 1 - never a bad thing

Though it would be interesting to try a goblin on a squig for war machine removal...

Thats fair, but for me its still just that little bit too random for warmachines, you're just not moving fast enough. I understand for scouts but in all honesty I never see them thesedays, except cham-skinks in which case I feel a pump wagon is best to deal with. Each to their own I guess

Arfa da Grate

edit - got rid of quote pyramid

This post has been edited by Arfa on Oct 26 2010, 08:45 AM

You don't get vanguard since that unit is not fast cavalry. hey are joined by a character who is not fastcav=they loose fastcav as well. Hopefully that's corrected in our next AB.

As for the thread i'd say 2 units of 10 fastcav with FC (or without) should be in most armies. Fastcav is such a useful tool. Add 10 squighoppers for good measure, they should be great against light troops and other fastcav in combat. (Except khornate marauder horsemen with flails... )

Theo

the gigantic spider is fast cav. I don't know the page but if you look up the rules for spiders (both types) it will say they are fast cav.

Both the standard spiders and giant spiders are listed in our book in the spider riders section (where they are listed in details with fluff, etc) and listed as having fast cavelry.

Given that giant spiders are only available for goblin characters, its not much of a leap to say that it maintains fast cavelry and therefore can join a unit of spider riders and still get the vanguard rule.

My squig hoppers are now being used as regular squig herd squigs. Still love those models!

Two units of 6 spider riders/wolf riders deployed in 2 ranks of 3 (they still all get to fight) are excellent war machine hunters

In the bestiary Gigantic Spiders are listed as having Fast Cavalry special rule. In the army list section they are listed as not having the Fast Cavalry Special rule. Which is correct and have they corrected this yet in an FAQ?

The bestiary one is dubious at best, the armylist one is pretty straightforward if you ask me.
Same situation as the giant squig and ItP, treat it as 'without' to prevent discussions during your tourneys. your opponent will have a good case if he decides to drag a judge in it.

IMO the beastiary is the correct rules, army list is just points and options, not rules, they belong in the bestiary. So the giant squig is ItP and the gigantic spider is fast cav.

This post has been edited by Flogger on Oct 27 2010, 11:23 AM