Fighting Back

Hejsan,
another question ... assume the enemy has a champion and a character in the first rank and I inflict 5 wounds on his unit, killing 5 regular troopers as I did not target his champ nor character ... does his champ and character fight back in this combat round (my guess is that they should as they were in the front rank all along)?
cheers
K

Yes, you got it right. Unless you direct attacks against the champ or characters they can fight back even if you killed 20 models.

-Myst

Do remember however, that if you kill enough models to have 'wasted kills' The champion gets killed even if you didn't target it.

Lets say there are 10 goblins including a champion, if you do 10 wounds, the entire unit is dead, the champion doesn't escape!

Silver: I know your right but what page is that on? Just so I can show future players.

p81 CHAMPIONS
paragraph 3, last sentence.

"If the unit suffers enough wounds...."

read the rest (;
Applies to Magic, Shooting and Combat of course.

So if my first rank has five models including the champ and a character-I get five wounds, lose 5 models, but I can still attack back with the champ and character? I've been playing it as no attacks back (and that's how they play at my LGS). Is there a reference to this in the rule book? All I can find is "casualties inflicted will reduce the number of enemy left to fight back." in the close combat section. I can't find anything that excludes the champ and character (even though they are not killed) from that rule. Can you point me to the page that mentions that? I might get pummeled with dice if I can't back that up in the rule book.

This post has been edited by Paiant Slapah on Nov 8 2009, 03:44 PM

exept with dwarven slayers as they are considered a mixed unit.

Paiant Slapah - you should probably read the section on characters pages 75 and 76, and also the combat section especially "which models fight" on page 32.

I don't think it is stated clearly in the rule book but I think it is there implicitly

On p32 it clearly says that models in base contact with enemy 'may not refuse to attack their enemies'.

On p36 it states 'any casualties inflicted inflicted will affect the number of enemy left to fight back'.

However it is clear that if you kill 10 models in a unit that contain no champ nor a character only the first five kills will affect the number of enemy left to fight back (given that you have 5 models in the front rank you will already be without attacks after 5 kills ... the rest of the kills go into excess casualties).

I guess it may be a bit of a stretch but when you attack a unit with a champ and character without directing any attacks their way only three models in the front rank are available the be classified as casualties and all additional hits will go directly into the 'excess casualty' pool, thus leaving the champ and character to fight back.

Anyways ... that would be my interpretation.
salute
K

correct. If there are no attacks directed at the characters, and there are excess wounds that can be removed from the back ranks, then that's what happens. The character and the champion aren't dead, so they have to fight back.

-Myst

So unless you specifically say you are attacking a character or champion, it is assumed you are attacking the 'ordinary warriors' leaving the character and champion to attack back.

What if the front rank was all characters. Do the characters take the wounds even though the attacks were not specified to a particular character, or would the back rank and filers take the wounds.

This post has been edited by Paiant Slapah on Nov 9 2009, 05:21 AM

that would be pretty rare since it would mean you put the unit standard and musician in the back... but in that case I would think that the enemy models would have to declare which ones they were fighting. This would lead to interesting things like 2 models attack this guy, 1 model attacks that guy, etc.. since all of the enemy rank could not attack the same character.

-Myst

Correct. Always worth chucking an attack or two into the champion, especially if you know you're going to lose the combat and especially if you're playing fellow greenskins, as our champions are nasty (especially savage orc champions with twin choppaz- 4 WS4 S5 attacks first round!).

As for all characters, first Id slap you for running all your characters in the one unit, but then Id say you can only attack things in base contact with that particular model. So if there is a model who can only attack characters then you have to specify which characters he wants to attack, and no he cant attack the unit! Remember that standard bearers and musicians count as a regular rank and file trooper (hence why you cant snipe them with 'eadbutt or a hockland long rifle) but the champion does not, you have to direct a different attack towards him. Also if the front rank is full of characters the unit wont benefit from any musician or standard they have, as these have to be in the front rank to work.

Arfa da Grate

If the frontrank of 5 models are giant slayers (musiscian and standard bearer) and all dies, do the troll slayers pick up the banner and instrument? Or are they gone?

both gaint and troll slayers can carry it so it just gets picked up.