Annoying We Game

Hello All! I'm new and wish I would've found this site sooner! I just recently played WE's for the second time in my life. My dwarves did good, almost ending in a complete draw. My orcs, not so good. I will admit that my friend had me at a disadvantage because he decided to use MY GIANT as his big rare tree guy and I had taylored my army around what models he owned.
Being that I knew his army was fast, my main idea was to include enough fast units to run circles around his, while my 'Boyz' and Trolls handled CC. The 2 mages were included as a way of whittling down his army. I was hoping to get the spell that caused 2d6 str4 attacks or the 1d6 Str 6 attacks. Of course, I got neither lol. What I did get was the level 1 spell and the movement spell for my goblin. I got the level 1 and the one that lets you attack first and reroll next round for the Orc.

Here's my 1500 point Army list:
Gen-Savage Orc B.B w/additional Choppa and Iron gnashas

lvl2 Orc Shaman w/Staff of Baduum

lvl2 N.Goblin shaman

10 spider riders w/Bows+full command

5 Wolfriders w/full cmnd+shields

5 Wolfriders w/full cmnd+shields

30 N. Goblins w/1 Fanatic, Full Cmnd

20 Orc Boys w/Shields + Full Cmnd

24 Orc Boys w/Extra Choppas + Cmnd

Boar Chariot

10 man Goblin Squig Herd

3 'Stone Trolls'

Had I known he was using that monstrosity of a Treeman, I would have put in a Giant or a Bolt Thrower, in the least.
My opponent basically had 2 units of Archers, 1 unit of Wild riders, 1 level 1 mage, 1 decked out Noble, a bunch of dryads and 1 Treeman.

In all fairness, we didn't even have time to complete this game but I saw how it was going to end. At the end it was obvious his treeman was pretty much going to annihilate everything. I did hit the treeman with my fanatic but did no damage. I also destroyed what was left of his wild rider unit in one round of combat with my general. Which I admit, felt Damn Good!

However, with his trees on the table (he won't play without 4 sets), my animosity, and low Ld, the speed and manouvering was going nowhere. Then at the end of the game he told me about his General's 'Kindred' Ability for 25 points that gave him not only plus 1 attack but a movement of 9 and an initiative of 9, I was shocked! lol. It's 30 points for an extra attack for the orcs and even 25 for just the +1 attack for my dwarves.
Plus it seemed like he had all these insane extra abilites (2 pages of em actually), while I had....Animosity and Waaghh

So, yeah, this is part rant because I have been noticing that the game seems a bit unbalanced. Then, after comparing the new Lizardman Codex (which has almost 0 negs and a ton of pos) to our new codex, I just felt jipped. But I can admit when I'm wrong. So, I decided to post this list just for the heck of it and see what you guys thought. Obviously hindsite is 20/20 and I would have put in my spear chukka, but I doubt that would have changed a whole lot (and buying and painting 4 of them suckers is just not something I can do right now).

lol i have no idea what you're talking about

ive been playing woodies for about 6 months and so far have yet to secure a win

which is why im starting OnG

maybe my list sucks...

get your opponent to stop insisting on 4 woods, the rules for woodelves were written with 1 or 2 woods on the table in mind (i.e a normal terrain setup +1 extra wood). insisting on 4 is pretty much insisting "give me an advantage or i won't play".

Yeah, I woke up today and could see my desk where my terrain is from my bed. The 4 bases of trees were sitting on it and I was just thinking, "wtf" lol.

The thing is, I've talked to him about it and he states that it is clearly within the rules, which it is. It's just annoying cuz If I get close to trees he can get that cheap spell off on only a 4+ that does d6 str 5 hits! Plus he can move em, so essentially over half the terrain on the board is unusable, as I dont want to be touching it. So, when we place terrain, all I can hope for is getting the highest roll and at least be placing first. That way I can at least try and position 1 or 2 of them 'out of the way'. Plus, I've told him that there's no rule that states that you HAVE to play with all those forests but he won't have it.

And I can tell the previous poster some tactics my opponent uses (no doubt gotten off of various sites). Trees are an obvious thing. You can move and use them to get in the way of chargers or put your dryads in trees (he hinted that they have some ability in trees but didn't let on what it is). The big treeman thing is a MUST compared to other rare choice, IMO. That thing gets 2 of the above mentioned spells for free plus has a ranged attack that will do an artillary dice worth of Str 5 hits if the opponent's unit is touching a tree. That's almost the equivalent of an organ gun! Plus st and toughness 6 aint bad either

The best tactic my opponent has used so far is also the simplest. WE don't get a penalty for moving and shooting, so you can constantly move your unit back about an inch each turn, just staying out of charge range. Usually you'll be within 15" of an opponent when doing this, if they are trying to charge and then the bows shoot at str 4, which be devistating if you're line is wide enough.

There is no part in the rules that forbids having 4 woods on the table, but it rarely happens very often out in the real world. I have yet to play on or see a table with 4 more than 2 (3 if you count the wood elf extra) and that's bad enough.

Back in good old 6:th edition there was a terrain generation chart that you rolled on before each battle. You decided how many pieces of terrain there should be on the table, then each player rolled and placed out 2 pieces each or 3 each depending on how many pieces there should be.

Perhaps you should try to get the old rulebook? You should be able to find it on "the pirate bay" without any problems

And yes... the 7:th edition has become a bit unbalanced, but if you think wood elves are bad then you should try to play against deamons or vampire counts...

I think random terrain is the best system. I wrote an article on terrain for the DWQ, but it isn't out yet. I listed a system for randomly placing terrain that is pretty fair that one of the guys in my local club created. Terrain is a very important part of the game and it can have a big effect on the game.

Treeman are some of the nastiest things in the game. I play a friend who regularly has no problems fielding two of them (usually with a dragon lord). It's hard to kill those things! I found giants to be the best way to do it. If you look at the chart that giants get and all three options are good. Yell and Brawl is the worst choice, but I have broken a treeman on a bad roll. Smash with Club can easily turn a treeman into splinters in one turn.

My friend used to play with a lot of elves in his army list. One of my army lists caused him to completely change that. It was my All Mounted list. It uses two units of 11 boar boyz. They can charge units on Turn 2! With T4 and 3+ AS, they can withstand the turn or two of shooting that comes at them. They can completely smash through dryads or elves. Two units of these just smashed his battle lines. The wyvern lord certainly helped, too.

Squig hoppers are great! They can go through woods (though watch out for those spells!) and can eat most things quite easily. I had thought that they would be great for taking out treemen, but since they get to Stand and Shoot with the artillery dice, it's pretty easy to destroy a whole unit of squigs.

Arrer boyz are good at shooting at Wood Elves, especially the elves. There are usually a lot of other better things for WE archers to shoot at than your arrer boyz, but if they happen to, it's not that bad! 10 arrer boyz are only 70 pts. The S3 will wound the elves and take casualties. They can still fight in a scrap, too.

Wolf riders with spears can take out elves, if they can survive the Stand and Shoot reaction.

We play with 2 woods and 2 hills where I game, pretty boring but thems the breaks, it seems to eb fair and balanced though. I wouldn't object to other terrain but thems the breaks. Nether-the-less wood elves playing in forests or playing lizardmen in the sea is equally unappealing and very bad manners.

This post has been edited by SeloneOrc on Apr 28 2009, 11:55 PM

Thanks a lot for the posts guys!

And I do have the last edition, the big one.
But that doesn't matter, my friend won't use that because he'd be giving up a big advantage and we don't use that book anymore.

And one of his other armies IS a VC army, lol...I've never beaten it with orcs

yeah, his first army was empire and I never lost to him once! Literally, not a single game in at least 3 years. No matter what he tried, My boyz would just own in the combat phase. I would make my units big so his shooting wouldn't matter all that much. I remembering breaking and wiping out a 15man unit of spearmen on the charge with my pump wagon, ahhh the good ol days. I once had his 200+point unit of knights w/general flee off the table when I declared a charge against them with my giant Themz sum ruf breaks right der! I mean, I would beat him SO bad sometimes that I would literally feel bad afterwords.

But the worst is that he went from never winning to just annihilating with his VC and then told me it was because 'I didn't do a good job making an army list'...course he said the same thing about that last game too..grrrr

But you guys have helped a lot cuz I decided to put more efforts in finding someone online to play against! I'm actually really excited about it. All the games I play are with the couple of people I know. But combined we own 7 different armies so things don't get bland. I apologize for getting off topic with this, but I do live in MD, U.S. If anyone wants to play me or knows how I can find someone, please let me know. I've looked online before but most of the people were somewhere in Europe. And I live about an hour from the closest city and 45 mins from the nearest GW store/gaming club. But I'm beginning to think that the drive will be worth it.

As far as those above mentioned topics with the calvary. I think that sounds awesome! The only problem is that I lost my job after breaking my back in a car accident recently and money is just non existent. That's why I was going with the wolves w/spears and spiders. I figured a 4str on the charge with a 4+ armor sve for the wolfs should of been sufficient (wasn't counting on elves causing terror tho!) In fact, that's what got me back into painting and such in the first place. I am buying for a new army right now and have been able to find some good deals on plastics. But metal seems hard to find cheap for any army. I remember how long I spent looking for a wyvern and when I finally found one at a decent price, I was broke haha.

you've just got a crap opponent then, start up a vampire or daemons army and cheese it out as much as possible, then completely ignore his complaints... he deserves it.

If your WE player refused to play with less forests, then it's time to refuse to play him then. When you play that way, it's just not a fair game. You can't always have 3+ forests on the table.

It sounds like your friends don't mind proxy. If he grabs your giant as a proxy for the treeman, you can proxy boar boyz out of the wolf/spider riders. Also, don't let him proxy your giant next time! If he is a pain about the woods, be a pain about the giant. Make sure to use him in your list.

Are you sure there aren't anyone else close by? Where is the closest local game store that isn't GW? I'm about 5 hours from the nearest GW store, but we have at least one independant game store in each city in my state. Most people use a local Yahoo! group to chat. You might be surprised and find a bunch of gamers a lot closer than you think. I would think that there were enough people nearby in Md that you could play someone else.

Sorry to hear about your back! I'm laid up on the sofa after ankle surgery. I fell off the ladder in 2007, but it's still been bugging me. I just got my ankle fused to stop the pain. It's hard to play WHFB when you can't get off the sofa.

ur friend reminds me of mine

he plays IG, back when the old codex was around without all those crazy varients he wanted to proxy his leman russ demolisher as plasma of doom one (from imperal armor (which he download ileggaly...))

i said he couldn't use it cause it wasn't from his codex he said he could because there was no rule against it, and there was a rule saying he could in IA1

when i said he couldn't he said he wouldnt play me with out it, after beating the dung out of him with my cheesemarines (i know no one likes cheese but against this Ahole..) i asked another friend who said that the IA1 is only usablebul with the correct models and told him to stop being a Ahole. when he got the new codex (2 weeks early and with out paying....) this all got resolved.

but yeah just stick it out and see if you can get someone else (preferable the a GW employee or guy who runs the club) to side with you

if that doesnt work, get a new friend (dont worry i am too!)

first off: that'll teach you building an anti list
second: don't expect a fanatic to do massive damage to a treeman
third:units of 5 wolf riders are a bad pick vs wood elves

-also i always build my army to be able to use terrain as best as possible no matter what the circumstances.,

if it's casual play, and he wants 4 forests, just roll for it 4+ and he gets them, but you deploy 2 of them, he places one and his free forest... deplomacy rules
(so all in all, het get a 50% chance for his forests, and even if you loose the roll you still get to put out 2 where it doesn't make a difference)

(btw the best save his general had was probably light armour...)
also the movement spell shouldn't be underestimated - you can deprive him of his stand and shoot, no fear or terror test for charging, easy flanking charge(on treekin for example) ...

This post has been edited by Grupas on May 22 2009, 03:17 PM

have you seen how many times WE can spam tree singing per turn? crazy number of bound spells!

First off, 4 woods is a ridiculous scenerio. I play every week on 4x6 tables and rarely do I see 3 woods on the tables, 2 is much more common. Use the terrain generator if terrain is an issue and as soon as you're allowed to pass do so and end the terrain madness.

Second off, if the purpose of a friendly game, played with a friend of yours is to win at all costs, you might want to re-evaluate why you play. The guy I play most and I each own 3 armies, of varying degrees of hardness in the current rules. Its agreed between us we warn the other guy if I bring y dark elves or he brings his daemons. (Does anyone care if I bring orcs or ogres or he brings beastmen or lizardmen?)

Wood elves are a tactically amazing army and I think they could be the best in the game with the right build and general... orcs aren't. That being said, I've beaten the woodland folks a few time with balanced lists... things that are good...

I like spiders to charge stuff they are using forests to move across the board. Even if you lose and run, you kill a model or two or they pursue out of the woods.

I usually like to stick a block of troops into the most annoying wood... let him wittle down a big block... it keeps him from hitting all of the important units.. and orcs or goblins are fairly cheap. Cheaper than fast cav, boars, war machines, etc.

Consider a wyvern against wood elves.. you need to be careful of archers, but it is one of hte only things you got that can catch things like dryads and wild riders. If you charge dryads at the right angle, you can get pursuits/over runs and get a nice chain of elven death going. Giants are great for treemen, too.

Good luck, your friend does not sound like someone I would enjoy playing against.