The Hook Strategy - Everything You Need To Know!, 26.01 - Tournament report (1000p)

INTRODUCTION:

I have idea for this thread for quite a while now. Base of it is that I have played this game for 6 years and I still loose at beginners tournaments . Since I'm quite smart otherwise I come to conclusion that I simply do something wrong. Then I realised that probably I'm not the only one with such a problem so maybe such a thread can be of use.

MAIN THING:

I have read hundreds of lists and pages of tactical articles but I fail anyhow. so I ask you guys (knowing you play better than me as otherwise it would require a miracle I must say) what to do to win. I don't want to win every game (well it would be nice but I am realist) but I want to stand a chance against people who play as long as I do. Honestly I don't even know what question to as - but i feel I really need some help...

thanks a lot ladz

This post has been edited by Brog Ironfang on Jan 26 2008, 07:05 PM

Talk us through a typical gameplan for you. That might help to guage whats missing.

Taking a look at your army list would help too...

One thing I suggest is to make sure you really pay attention to victory points at the end of the game, alot of times realizing table quarters and what units you can get half VP for and what of your units are about to (and hopefully run them out of harms way) can swing the battle. Another thing is pay attention to banners. fleeing and getting run down is better then getting beaten in combat 9 times out of 10 caue it saves the banner.

Also what types of armies and stuff give you trouble will help as well

I've been thinking about this kind of thing for a while. I believe there's a need for discussion on general Warhammer strategy. It's easy to talk about specific units, army lists, this unit vs. that unit, etc., but it seems to me there isn't a real language to discuss general Warhammer strategy, with a few exceptions.

I've been trying to work on a way around this, but the best I've come up with so far are a loose list of ways people can play Warhammer. If this helps identify what kind of player you are or want to be, I am glad. If it doesn't, hopefully someone can do better because I think there's a need for this type of discussion.

Warhammer Level 1:
THE ARMY LIST

Almost everyone starts playing Warhammer at this level. They design the most powerful army they can, and send it screaming at the enemy, assured of its success. Units are designed to be indestructible, or at least have massive damage potentials. Characters with lots of magic items, unbreakable units, units with huge combat bonuses, armor saves, etc.

Admittedly, I hate playing these types of players, but this style really does have its uses. First, for new players it cuts down on the number of variables. They only have to worry about a few super expensive units rather than many specialized units, and mostly these troops are designed to be effective in every situation. Second, they tend to be small, so new players can play and paint their armies quickly.

Even so, the game is designed so that these super-units are usually less cost-effective than multiple lesser units (usually...). But luck plays a big factor. Occasionally the super units will under perform and the game will be lost more or less automatically, and occasionally they will be unstoppable no matter how good the other player is (which helps keep the new player from becoming frustrated). But generally a more experienced player with a more balanced list will pick these types of players apart, and the Army List Player will develop into a more sophisticated player (though certainly some never do).


Warhammer Level 2:
THE BATTLE PLAN

I'm not entirely sure that this style of play is at all inferior to the next type, but it's what I evolved into next, so I'm listing it in this order. This type of player has a plan for his units, frequently drawn out on a little piece of paper. From game to game and opponent to opponent this battle plan will usually not vary. It's usually based on a pretty simple maneuver like attacking hard on one flank while holding back on another, or holding the center and working around both flanks.

This is a much more efficient style of play than relying on the army list, which usually has very straightforward movement like "everyone charge forward and attack" or "everyone stand still and shoot." It allows units to support eachother, and depending on how well it's set up it can account for the odd bit of bad luck or well-played maneuver by your opponent.

But by its nature it is a little inflexible, and will occasionally meet a bad match up, forcing at the very least a hastily reworked battle plan. And variables like terrain or scenarios can really play havok with such a style.

Nevertheless, the most consistent success I experienced was with this type of play, and it seems that frequently a solid strategy will defeat even extremely clever tactics. There definitely seems to be an advantage to knowing what your army strengths are and sticking to them no matter what.


Warhammer Level 3:
THE MATCH-UP

This is where I am right now. At the start of a battle, there is only a vague battle plan. As your opponent deploys units, you deploy units that are equipped to deal with his. As I've said before, I'm not sure this is a better way of playing than The Battle Plan style. You're more flexible, but it's a bit reactive as opposed to proactive. It takes a good knowledge of the opponent's army and probability to be able to work out which units will do well against others, and there can be a lot of tactical maneuvers as you deploy your weaker units to distract or damage his stronger ones.

This style of play feels more controlled and surgical, but a lot can go wrong with the dice. A pursuit move too far or a lucky insane courage can leave your scattered units very vulnerable. A Battle Plan Style, while occasionally having to deal with units that they are poorly matched up against, has a certain amount of redundancy in that there will usually be several units of the same function massed together so that if one fails another will succeed.

I'm going to keep pushing myself with this style of play, because it feels more complicated and takes more forethought, so in my mind it should produce better results. And perhaps as I improve at this method my results will improve, but right now it can be pretty mixed, though generally successful.


Warhammer Level 4:
???

I don't know what this level is like, because I'm not to it yet, but I can feel it out there. I get glimpses of it in battle reports from very successful players and it seems like there should be a way of playing better than what I'm doing right now. I strongly suspect it involves planning ahead several turns, and probably in way that takes in the whole army, or at least more than the small number of units I can handle in my mind.

It would be easy to say that you should do these things, but there is constantly some surprising element that crops up in a game that I feel I couldn't have planned for. An unexpected move by the enemy, a key unit being taken out in an unlucky set of dice rolls, a too high or low pursuit roll that puts a unit right where I didn't want them, etc. I don't know how to account for all these things so I usually only try to think about one turn ahead.

But I think some people can plan for these things, or at least have a method of setting up ways to deal with the unexpected as they go along while also positioning their army to its best effect. Or maybe I'm overthinking it and it's really just a well executed combination of Match-up and Battle Plan styles.


Anyway, that's my ramble. My advice would be to decide what style of play you are, and either try a different one or try to become better at the style you are at.

If you use Match-ups, think it out. What units do you have to deal with dangerous war machines, flying monsters, tough infantry, etc.? What types of units do your present units excel against? What sort of units need to be avoided and how can keep them away from you?

If you use a Battle Plan, try to think of a better one. If your flank attack keeps getting crushed, maybe it needs more troops. If your center gets over-run, maybe it should hold back instead of rushing forward.

And if, Gork help us, you are an Army List player, you could always try to find a better army list. My advice: something with a Steam Tank or a Bloodthirster.

But as I said before, this just a primitive attempt at talking about Warhammer in broader sense. There's a lot to this game, but sometimes we get bogged down in the particulars. Anyone's comments on this diatribe or how to win at Warhammer in general are always appreciated.

EDIT at the beginning
Gashbad that was a really good read and I mean it ! - I have a question - do you think it is easier to play battleplan rather than match - up with orcs. Normally I would say that I try to start from the hardest one (this is what kind of man I am) but I learn that sometimes starting from easier fields is better. I think I tried to play matchups but maybe I really should try a battleplan - but how does a battleplan handles armies like WE that play differently than any other... is this a factor you need to have a separate battleplan for. Also I'm really patient - ande I want to aim high - you say it is natural to "evolve" from battleplaner to matchup (which I also think is better when you do it right) or is it better to start form the match up - fail at the beginning but learn and eventually get there...

the list might be a problem - for some reason I don't have my "style" of making them - I always take what I feel like and I really struggle when it comes to making a list with a good sense... I will dig threw my PC and post some of my lists later on

I think I have problem with variety. I used to play WE at the beginning (when driads had 2 wounds each and all...) and I won or was in first third at each freaking tournament I was into. Then I decided I need an army that allow me to develop in painting a bit more and switched to orcs - it was something like 4 years ago and since then it seems I can't play at all! I could say - oh well orcs aren't for me and switch back but I don't want to...

As for my typical game it looks like this - I read opponent list (this is common in Poland for some reason) and try to decide what can I do about things I'm most worried about. I try to see spots where it is better for me to fight (like a flank covered by forest or so) and then I deploy - usually when I finish I have to adjust the "plan" somehow as things usually change a little and after 2-3 turns usually it turns out that ... something went wrong - all the plans are good but somehow they don't work very often. I read several tactic articles and tried to use those too and I failed... I start to think that maybe army composition is my problem but if I post a list usually I get like 1-3 replies that say it's ok so...

*************************** LIST 1 (2000) *******************************

Black Orc Big Boss @ 129 Pts
General; Choppa; Heavy Armour
Horn of Ugrok [40]

Goblin Big Boss @ 112 Pts
Light Armour; Battle Standard
Rowdy Grott's Big Red Raggedy Banner [50]

Goblin Shaman @ 135 Pts
Magic Level 2; Little Waagh
Nibbla's Itty Ring [20]
Dispel Scroll [25]

Goblin Shaman @ 115 Pts
Magic Level 2; Little Waagh
Dispel Scroll [25]

24 Orc Boyz @ 174 Pts
Choppa; Light Armour; Shield; Standard; Musician; Orc Boss @ [15] Pts

23 Night Goblins @ 141 Pts
Netters; Shield; Standard; Musician
1 Fanatic @ [25] Pts

24 Night Goblins @ 144 Pts
Netters; Shield; Standard; Musician
1 Fanatic @ [25] Pts

24 Night Goblins @ 144 Pts
Netters; Shield; Standard; Musician
1 Fanatic @ [25] Pts

21 Night Goblins @ 117 Pts
Shortbow; Musician
2 Fanatic @ [50] Pts

5 Goblin Spider Riders @ 71 Pts
Spear; Shield; Musician

5 Goblin Spider Riders @ 71 Pts
Spear; Shield; Musician

5 Goblin Wolf Riders @ 71 Pts
Spear; Light Armour; Musician

15 Squig Herd @ 90 Pts
9 Squigs
6 Night Squig Herders

4 Trolls @ 160 Pts

7 Squig Hoppers @ 105 Pts

2 Spear Chukka @ 70 Pts

2 Spear Chukka @ 70 Pts

1 Doom Diver @ 80 Pts

Casting Pool: 6
Dispel Pool: 4
Models in Army: 186

Total Army Cost: 1999

*************************** LIST 2 (800) *******************************


Black Orc Big Boss @ 89 Pts
General; Choppa; Heavy Armour

19 Orc Boyz @ 144 Pts
Choppa; Light Armour; Shield; Standard; Musician; Boss

24 Night Goblins @ 144 Pts
Netters; Shield; Standard; Musician
1 Fanatic

10 Savage Boyz @ 85 Pts
Choppa; Warpaint; Musician

Squig Herd @ 60 Pts

6 Squigs
4 Night Squig Herders

5 Goblin Spider Riders @ 71 Pts
Spear; Shield; Musician

5 Goblin Wolf Riders @ 71 Pts
Spear; Light Armour; Musician

5 Squig Hoppers @ 75 Pts

1 Wolf Chariot @ 60 Pts
3 Goblin Crew

Casting Pool: 2
Dispel Pool: 2

Models in Army: 81

Total Army Cost: 799

This post has been edited by Brog Ironfang on Oct 26 2007, 09:20 AM

First of all relax

You're playing O&G now, da best army in da Vorld!

By now I'm sure you 've realized that our army's Ld.... well... sux! Forget about sissy "Immune to Psychology" abilities and such. If anything is outside the 12" radius of your General's ld 9 will, sooner or later, run.

In your 2000p list I see too many low Ld units. They will not fit inside your General's Ld radius unless you deploy them in two lines which I don't recommend due to animosity.

You cannot trust items like "Horn" to mend those liabilities. "Rowdy's" is not very useful either.

I also see there a lack of clear orientation. You do not have strong CC units which can break the opponent, neither heavy magic/shooting. All you can do, iMo, is sit back and wait for the inevitable or run forth to face it sooner.

It's a cruel world out there filled with terrifying monsters , lethal warmachines and powerful wizards.
It's up to you to decide the way to break their neck under yor bootz! (mine is to max CC efficiency)

PS
I play O&G and only O&G. I'm not the best player in the world but I'm sure one of the craziest. (I will go to UKGT without any shamans or Special Characters)

This post has been edited by mohammadurk on Oct 26 2007, 11:03 AM

Hiya, saul (Warboss Kurgan) asked me to look in on this thread.

which is high praise indeed now I've seen what the threads about.
As for background I don't tend to play with the usual obvious high powered races but I do try and make very effective lists within the fluff limits I set myself. Current armies are Tz beastmen, ogres and savage orcs for example. None of which are your standard tournament winning races but within that I'm not trying to pretend my lists are uber soft either.

In terms of battle plan you really should be aiming for a mix of all the above including things to minimise the times when your army decided it doesn't want to do what you tell it to. (Tz beastmen arguably even worse for this than greenskins as unruly and even lower leadership than orcs with out access to as much immune to psych stuff can really stuff your plans up, plus I play savage orcs so I know how it feels to have your units go off on one!)

Within your army list you need to have units that can deal with specific types of enemy units. e.g. in my beastmen list I have screamers and furies to deal with warmachines. Magic missiles to deal with fast cav/support units etc.

Have something that can destroy warmachines quickly, have something that can deal with knights, have something that can deal with enemy magic (either mage hunters or magic defence) etc.

Then when setting up your army you need to use a mixture of setting up your units in position to go after what you included them in your list to deal with, deploying so as to enforce the battle to be fought in the section of the board you want it to be fought in and to capatilise on any mistakes your opponent makes. The best/easiest way of doing this by far is to have multiple throw away units which you can deploy early without giving away where anything of value is going to go. (i.e. hounds / gnoblars / spider riders etc.)

Redundancy in an orc and goblin army is very important, as often you'll have units that wont do what you tell them to so another unit will have to do it instead. (i.e. take 2 units of squig hoppers instead of one - then when your first unit overbounces and ends up sticking out of the terrain you were trying to hide in you've still got the other in position to get to his missile troops.

When deploying you also need to keep units that were included in the list in the first place to support other units to be close enough to actually support those units!

e.g. No point putting my hounds out on a far flank miles away from the enemy if they were supposed to be screening my chariots from shooting.

All of this falls into a mix of the first three categories I guess. In terms of the fourth mystery category it really does simply come down to a mixture of
1) knowing exactly what all of your and, sometimes more importantly, your enemies units are capable of (this becomes much easier with open lists if you play with them).
2) Knowing the odds of any particular move happenning and then how serious it would be to the game if it worked.
3) Moving supporting units so that even if a move that was 80% likely to work fails then it doesn't lose you the game.
Prime example of this was on wednesday - my unit of 2 leadbelchers with +1S spell on them charged into the flank of 2 nurgle minotaurs with GWs. I expect to do about 2 wounds and have a flank so expect to win the combat by 1 or 2 and hopefully see them off. However if I don't manage to break them his herd will then have a flank charge on my leadbelchers, not such a big deal in itself but the overrun from that could potentiall put him into a flank of one of my other main ogre units which wouldn't be good. So I move up a unit of gnoblars to catch any potential overrun before it gets to my ogres. It's this type of planning for the worst a turn or so in advance in every scenario that can save games when dice go against you. (My leadbelchers did infact whiff against the minos and only won thanks to their musician but the minos held, if the gnoblars hadn't been there my line would have collapsed - instead the combat herd (2 characters) gets diverted away into my 40 point gnoblars.

Sorry about the rambling nature of this, I'll try and clean it up a bit later and add some more orc specific stuff.

Hope it helps a bit

Nethrag

Warhammer is won in denying your opponent the ability to move their units where they want to move and by sacrificing cheap units to gain expensive units from your opponent. Once you understand how to do this winning is easy against average opponents, yet still difficult against people of your own skill level or above.

For example i find fast cav units the best units in the game and O&G have access to some of the best of them. Fast cav are great bait / flee units, so position them so that if the enemy were to charge them, by fleeing you would send them off on a sharp angle exposing their flank to one of your heavy units the following turn. This is basic warhammer tactics yet so many players don't do it efficiently. Fast cav are also exceptionaly good at blocking off advancing units. For example in a game i player last week my opponent couldn't advance his kroxigors because my wolf riders have him wedged between my unit and a forest. His only option was to charge the wolf riders but by doing so he would have exposed his flank to a unit of 30 night goblins should my wolf riders decide to flee. This is a perfect example of how a 70 point unit can nullify a 230 point unit from the game.

Most beginner players look at fast cav as units designed to destroy enemy archers and war machines and while they can do this, the quicker you learn their real strengths the better you will become.

Forget trying to write a list of rock units to beat your opponents scissor units. Your opponent will be trying to do the same thing. Your opponent will probably have a beginners game plan by trying to match up the units he believe will beat yours, but by restricting his movement with fast cav or redirecting them his game plan goes out the window. People get impatient and eventually the fast cav running rings around his units will annoy them to the point they commit themselves to charging them which is where the game is won.

Don't be afraid to lose games by trying new things in an attempt to get better. Make it your goal next game to have enemy units facing the left and right edges on the board regardless of how you go about doing it. The better you get at exposing their flanks to your main line the quicker you will start winning.

Other random things.

1) Play to your armies strengths.
i.e. My savage orc units are there to hit things, not win by combat res so add choppa for them. My dwarves are the opposite so hand weapon and shield for them.
My savage orcs need the charge against a lot of things to be able to win (as they have no decent armour) so things like a well timed waaagh can win the game for me, or something like the waaagh banner on some savage orc boar boyz.

2) Plan for it's weaknesses. Negate psych as much as possible, have plans for screening your expensive troops from missile fire or taking the enemies out asap. etc.

3) Warhammer is generally won in the movement phase. Units like squig hoppers which can break some of the normal rules for movement/charging are priceless, as are small diverting units which can bait / redirect the enemies strong units. (fast cav/pump wagons)

Yes seperate battle plans are needed which is why you really need to do a mixture of both "battle plan" and "match up" strategies if you want to win consistently against whatever your playing.
The standard battleplan with say, my ogres, is to get into combat asap, let the tyrant with his tenderiser go to work on whatever the nastiest thing is in the opposition army and try and use the little units of leadbelchers to flank as much as possible while the gorgers turn up behind the enemy and either pin him in place or deal with warmachines.

Now if this is against WE's like in your example it needs to be slightly modified.
You deploy away from the forests as much as possible so his advantage there is gone, you deploy to minimise shooting on your key units, you look to see if he has a treeman or a treeman ancient (or both) as the tenderiser can deal with the treeman but not the ancient (annoyance of netlings) so you send the tyrant at the tree and the gnoblars (within generals Ld range) at the ancient. That's where knowing your enemy obviously comes in to play.

However on wednesday I was playing against Beastmen, who I could actually afford to sit back and make him come to me with (3 butchers dishing out panic spells can make a mess of beastmen) so the standard plan of get into combat asap didn't apply as that was what my opponent wanted.

The thing is that every plan can/should only be formed once you see your opponents army. What is he relying on to win him the game, what are the main threats to your army, can you kill them? If not, how can you delay them while you deal with the rest of it. The real main thing that puts some people over the top good is thinking 2+ turns ahead everywhere on the board. I feel I'm at the stage where I can confidently say what'll happen in a battle for approaching that, but there are people out there who do it even further ahead and ultimately they'll beat me.

You've also go to remember what your playing with. O&G are a decent army with some really nice units and can be played with and won with consistently against your standard opposition. But if your constantly finding yourself up against maxed out tournement lists then sometimes you just don't have the tools for the job unless you write a list to play them. (e.g. it doesn't matter if I'm a slightly better player than my opponent if he has a forest spirit list with ancient another tree, dryad spam and decent magic defence if I'm playing with my standard ogres. He can sacrifice a few units of dryads in charge me or be charged type situations and then multiple charge afterwards. He can even just stick his ancient infront of any of my units and say bring it on and unless I get lucky he'll hold and then counter charge. Sometimes there's not a lot you can do except chalk it up to experience and resist joining the dark side.

I think there is a lot of great advice, but a lot of it is for higher up players. The original question dealt with losing at the beginer's events consistantly. So, how can someone begin to play in a cohesive method and win games? I think that a lot of the previous advice is great, but it might be for someone further along.

I think the first place to start is to come up with what type of army you want to play with. You always hear about things like the dwarven gunline, the skaven shooty army of death, many small unit armies, etc. Just think of what type of armies we have as OnG. We actually have a lot of different types of armies. What type do you want to play? You can easily go with a lot of war machines and magic and hang back to make the enemy come to you. I want an infantry based list and I want to swarm my opponents. What about the all mounted list? You could go with an elite fighting army. There are concept armies, as well: An as many squigs as you can army; an all goblin army; all orc army; etc. Even an all-balanced list is a type. What type of list do you want to play?

After you pick a concept, you need to figure out how you are going to build an army with it. Is it a strategy choice, such as sit back and kill things from afar? If so, then you want as many war machines and magic as you can get. You probably don't want to have a large number of units as these will just get in the way of your war machines, but you have to have enough to protect them. Or if you pick an all (or mostly) infantry army, you need to think about how you plan on attacking. An example might be to have some fast cav or snotlings to go in the front to act as diverters. They can take the charges and flee at an angle to set up the enemy units to flank charges. Maybe you say you want mostly goblin infantry units and a large number of chariots to support them? You will want to pick a strategy of play that you like to play with. Are you aggressive? Do you like to be sneaky? Are fanatics your style? Do you love to outflank?

Lastly, you need to fine-tune your list. This step usually takes a long time and may never stop. You need to figure out the best way to accomplish the style that you want. This is where you need to think about what you are going to face and how to oppose it. There might be a number of guys at the store that always have really large monsters in their armies and you need to come up with a way to defeat them. Perhaps spear chukkas? Or, you don't want any war machines, how about squig hoppers/herders? Or even a unit of bowmen to shoot at large monsters? At this point, it's great if you can have a number of things to take on a number of situations. For example, the suicide goblin with one hit wunder and tricksy trinket can be used to kill enemy characters, enemy chariots (like the black coach), or even a small unit of knights (if he gets the charge). Spells can be useful against a number of enemies, especially the blasting kind. You can kill knights, large monsters, or elite units this way. Try to think of what has killed you in the past and how your new list will counter it. What will stop flankers from coming in? How will you deal with miners or beast herds coming in? What happens when you face an enemy gunline?

After you have played a few games with a particular list, don't despair and give up (if it didn't work out), but try to work out the kinks in the list. Perhaps the trolls just don't work when you have a night goblin general b/c of the low leadership? Maybe there are just too many shooty armies in your local club and that giant just gets killed in turn 1. What if you gave those orcs two choppas instead of the shield? Is that large unit of black orcs doing anything? Do you want to keep them? Then how to protect them?

It's also good to try to think of teams for your army. Or, you can think of zones of control. How are you going to handle the flanks and the middle? I've found that a unit of wolf riders, a snotling pump wagon, and a nearby unit of squig hoppers can really hold down a flank. If the other two are being slow, the wolf riders can use their fast cav status to just run behind or to the side of an approaching enemy so that the slower items get a chance to charge in. How exactly do you use that single troll next to the general's unit? Do those snotlings in the front help out or get in the way? Stick out that unit of 'ard grotz to try to take a charge while your orc units are just on the edges trying to get a flank charge in.

I think the key is to pick out a strategy with the units you want. Otherwise you are just making a list of items you think are cool, but you don't know how to really use them. We have a wide variety of units and a wide variety of tricks you can use with each one. It's important to have a plan when going into a battle about what exactly you are going to do. Perhaps you should do one of those battles where you decide on the map ahead of time and then write your deployment down all at once. Then, each player just plops his army down according to his plans. It forces you to think about how you are going to approach the battlefield in teams as opposed to just reacting to what units he puts down.

Well, sorry if I have been rambling, but I hope it helps.

Wow

I have never expected so much feedback - thanks guys

Well when it comes to style I think I'm an infantry attacking player. Usually I tend to have 3-5 foot troops units (orcs and goblins) with some back up (like fast cav, squig hoppers and chariot from time to time). I'm not the fan of magic so usually I take a Dispel dice BSB and a scroll caddy + some fighting guys. Honestly I think 2lv2 mages would be nice (as I think I simply like balance) but they tend to do next to anything. What I have problem with are things like flyers (not only dragons and big things but normal "flying units" as well) - something like a gyrocopter that lands behind your lines (and you go 4") while rest of his friends shoot you to death. Also big monsters are a threat.

If I would have to say what is my perfect strategy move I would say I'd rather have 2 gobbo units one on flank than big BO unit that simply reap everything apart. I would like to think about myself as a tactician but it seems that when I take more units some of them end up completely out of position and if I take stronger ones they got flanked and killed - hard thing...

The worst thing is I feel that I simply should ask about couple of things and play but I don't know what to ask about. So maybe I will do it like this:

I will think of an armylist for the next beginners tournament. They are played in 1000 point format and I think I will be able to attend for the next one (i hope they are only once a month and I cant go tomorrow :/) there are the "big" tournaments as well so it is quite possible that I will go for one as those as well. Ill try to post a list tomorrow with a description of what I think it should do

once more thanks for all the help !!

Unfortunately I misjudged time - I need to leave my flat now so I will be able to post something tomorrow - just don't think I lost interest in this thread

and even once again - THANKS !!

Hi All,

Thanks also from me. This is not only helping out Brog, but all of us....

This is a great post all helpful and constructive. I've found that some of the tactics posts can turn into moans about how strong other armies are and how weak ours is.

Yet this post is not like that at all.

Thanks once again guys...

Bidiot.

Do you play a lot of 1000 point games? I find orcs dont tend to do too well at that points range.

Also, if flyers are your problem then you simply need to load up on Spear chukkas. I would take 4 and position them so that at least two will always get a shot at a gyro or dragon behind your lines.

This post has been edited by Obfuscate on Oct 27 2007, 09:27 PM

i will check with a friend of mine about this and ask him to write something... i have known him for about 6 years and in that time he has only lost one battle (and yes, he plays pretty much)
why is some people so much better than others at stuff like this?