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Newz: Da Warpath's 10th Conversion Competition: Cavalry Edition - ENTER HERE!

Pages: (3) [1] 2 3  ( Go to first unread post )

 Warbossez For Da Killy Time, Question about the Main Warbosses
Murphy'sLawyer
Posted: Mar 6 2012, 06:45 PM


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So I have been looking through the forums for info on the top Character Bosses, notably Grimgor, and I have found little mentioned for the 8th edition and new army book.

I know they are expensive and players like to make their own Lords but aside from that what do players think of them.


Azhag seems hit and miss to me while Gorbad and Grimgor look expensive bit what they do for their units seems outstanding. More than one unit of big uns and Black Orcs that are even more Killy makes me smile.

I know these units are considered big bulls eyes and would have to be screened by gobos crossing the Killing fields but when they make it in they look like Dwarfs and Chaos Warriors would be worried.

What is the communities thoughts.

I should say hello to everyone too. All new and all. laugh.gif

This post has been edited by Murphy'sLawyer on Mar 6 2012, 06:47 PM
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Cannibalbob
Posted: Mar 6 2012, 07:05 PM


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Well, Grimgor is pretty much the apex of murder-machines in 8th edition. If you look at all the current 8th ed army books (ignore the old books remaining from 7th and 6th ed), he is by far the meanest special character in close combat.

He is also relatively cheap for just how nasty he is. However, his cost is masked a bit by the fact that he has to bring a unit of black orcs along with him. But thats not really a big deal since if you are using Grimgor you are probably bringing black orcs anyways and he makes that unit better.

Azhag is pretty decent. His main downfall is that characters on monster mounts are cannon-bait in this edition. It is one of the main flaws that 8th ed has since characters riding big monsters such as dragons & wyverns are pretty cool and it is a shame they tend to be a bit of a liability. But despite having a high cost he provides a lot of value. He combines a lvl 3 wizard with a stat-line which is better than an orc warboss. He has pretty good magic weapons, prevents animosity in a large area, and gives us access to a magic lore other than Waaaagh magic. If you don't have to worry about eating cannonballs to the face he is not bad.
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rothgar13
Posted: Mar 6 2012, 07:08 PM


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I'll also point out that while Grimgor is indeed a beast and arguably the strongest CC special character out there right now (with a filter for 8th edition books, of course), you still don't want him anywhere near a tooled-up Ghoul King or Vampire Lord. Their powers can be used in much scarier ways than what they did for guys like Vlad.

I think he's definitely the guy to bring if you're going to bring a SC, though. WS5 Blorcs sounds delicious.

This post has been edited by rothgar13 on Mar 6 2012, 07:08 PM
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Cannibalbob
Posted: Mar 6 2012, 07:44 PM


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I didn't see any of the vampire upgrades that would be a huge issue to grimgor. The leadership bomb with the paralyzing gaze was about as nasty as I saw, but unless my memory is failing me again all that does is force Grimgor to reroll any hits. So that will pretty much wash out with his hatred. But I agree that you can tool up a vampire to be nastier than the special characters.

However, I don't see either of those characters living through the first round of combat most of the time. One of them is most likely going to kill the other, and they will both tend to be roughly the same cost. I think they are both about equally likely to kill the other. I think I would be willing to lose Grimgor to take out a tooled up vampire. I think that would hurt the vampire player more than the greenskin player (although loss of the general is pretty painful for greenskins).
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Wechselbalg
Posted: Mar 6 2012, 08:20 PM


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Losing that tooled up VC lord and general is more painful than losing our general Id say. Grimgor may lose but the opponent as well so its ok most of the times and there are not many lords SC or not that can kill him. Hes just "da bossiest boss" out there. Plus his boyz are somwhat overpowered. You get BO heroes with 1LP each so yeah, I pretty much luv Grimgor and his Immortalz. So if you are allowed take him or go with Azagh and try to build around him - hes great as well.
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Cannibalbob
Posted: Mar 6 2012, 08:31 PM


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All of the special characters we have in the book are fairly decent - none of them are really bad at all. Gorbad is pretty good, although without a ward save you need to be careful with him. You also have to make absolutely sure that he is never forced to flee from combat since it will auto-kill him. But he gives you nice flexibility in building your army since he can take tons of Big 'Uns. He also swings one really mean magic weapon, and provides a VERY good leadership bubble.

Skarsnik is cheap, can mess up the enemy by delaying important models, has a nice magic blast from his prodder, has a lot of wounds, and has a lot of attacks. His downside is that he has little protection (lots of wounds is basically his protection) and his large base allows a lot of enemy infantry to attack him. But he is still pretty good for the cost.

Grom is a pretty nice mobile murder machine for a goblin. His axe is very mean and he is fairly survivable with regeneration. He can be quite a lot of fun and is not too expensive.
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Groznit Goregut
Posted: Mar 6 2012, 08:50 PM


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I started a thread last month on the issue. There is a GT in the area that allows Special Characters. The reason you don't see many people talk about them is the fact that most tournaments don't allow them.

For what it is worth, I would take Grimgor if I didn't think I had a shot at winning Best Painted. I don't have my Black Orcs painted to any decent standard and wouldn't win with them. So, I am gunning for the paint victory instead of the table top victory.

I love Azhag, but the biggest problem is the lack of a good ward save. He's a bit open on that wyvern and easy to be killed....

Here's that other thread.
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Murphy'sLawyer
Posted: Mar 6 2012, 10:26 PM


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Nothing really surprising here. I was beginning to think I was missing something bad with them due to the absence of many discussions. (Did a search yesterday and didn't see your post Groznit. These Google search engines can be hit and miss becuase it prioritizes the search by popularity instead of latest and relevance. angry.gif )

Also the 8th ed sticky guide needs more entries.
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rothgar13
Posted: Mar 6 2012, 10:30 PM


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Red Fury and any sort of Strength buffing item are bad news for Grimgor, and Quickblood is an easy way to negate Gitsnik's ASF without committing an item to it. A Vampire can typically greet Grimgor with 5 high-Strength attacks at equal or higher WS than Grimgor's (Dread Knight), and have each unsaved wound generate extra attacks to make sure they finish the job. You want no part of them in combat. That said, he should be good to go against most other things, and WS5 Black Orcs will make a good showing for themselves against virtually anything.

Gorbad I'm a bit iffier on, and that's in large part due to the lack of a Ward save. Still, he makes Boar Boyz really, really good, and gives armies that rely on Animosity-prone and low-Ld units a much-needed rock to build around. Again, though, no WS - so be careful about where you stick him into.

Azhag is cannon-bait, plain and simple.

This post has been edited by rothgar13 on Mar 6 2012, 10:32 PM
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Cannibalbob
Posted: Mar 6 2012, 11:19 PM


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QUOTE (rothgar13 @ Mar 6 2012, 10:30 PM)
Red Fury and any sort of Strength buffing item are bad news for Grimgor, and Quickblood is an easy way to negate Gitsnik's ASF without committing an item to it. A Vampire can typically greet Grimgor with 5 high-Strength attacks at equal or higher WS than Grimgor's (Dread Knight), and have each unsaved wound generate extra attacks to make sure they finish the job. You want no part of them in combat. That said, he should be good to go against most other things, and WS5 Black Orcs will make a good showing for themselves against virtually anything.


Quickblood makes them strike simultaneously - unless there is something there I am missing. And sure the Vampire stands a decent chance of killing Grimgor, but Grimgor stands a good chance of killing him as well. Even striking at the same time I would let Grimgor try to go for the kill. Odds are a vampire toting that many upgrades is quite expensive and his loss is felt much more across the undead army than Grimgor's loss is to the greenskins.

And even with str upgrades Grimgor's armor and ward hold up pretty well. That said, I would not challenge that particular Vampire, but rather just try to get Grimgor into base contact with him. That way you can dump attacks from the Immortulz onto the vampire as well. And odds are that the vampire character won't challenge Grimgor. He stands a good chance of getting killed, even if he manages to kill Grimgor in return, and with Red Fury and high str he is much better off dumping his attacks into the rank & file troops and trying to win either by attrition on the black orcs or just outright winning combat through casualties.

But personally, against a character like that I would probably just feed him goblins. Red Fury is pretty awesome, but I still have more gobbos than he can kill.
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rothgar13
Posted: Mar 6 2012, 11:31 PM


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Yes, they would strike simultaneously, but the Vampire has higher WS and a better Ward save (and is likely making Grimgor re-roll his), so he has a decided edge. He's also not that much more expensive than Grimgor himself.

You'd be surprised at how many Goblins you have to feed these guys - a properly kitted Strigoi Ghoul King can slaughter up to 16 Gobbos per round of combat (hits on 3's with a re-roll, wounds on 2's, and their Lore has a spell that gives them re-rolls to Wound, so it's very feasible), while still presenting a T5/5+ Regen save frontage (4+ with a nearby Mortis Engine, which will spit out an aura that will also help trim the Gobbos' ranks), and that's not counting all the damage done by his unit. Vampire Lords are a legit menace, and the only real way I've been able to deal with them while actually meeting them in combat is to literally bombard them with debuffs, which is not something Greenskin magic can do. I think I'd either try 'Eadbutting them (they're all casters, so this works), or aiming artillery at them so that even if they make their Look Out Sir! rolls, at least your unit has a chance of winning the ensuing fight, and if they do that enough times he'll crumble away.

This post has been edited by rothgar13 on Mar 6 2012, 11:36 PM
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Cannibalbob
Posted: Mar 6 2012, 11:57 PM


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Vampire Count units are generally not that threatening to goblins - oddly enough. Nets neuter most of the infantry units pretty well. Grave Guard with great weapons are about the only unit that just ignores nets. The VC players have some pretty good buffs at their disposal, but you just need to prioritize which spells to stop. Even with buffs their units don't do a whole lot. The vampire is the real threat. And sure, 16 wounds is nasty, but thats what 100 gobbos is for. Takes a lot of turns to take that out, and you always have the option of flanking his unit to turn the tide.

The vampire possibly has a better ward save than Grimgor, but I doubt he has a better combo of ward and armor. Grimgor should still get a decent armor save even if the vampire has a weapon that increases his strength.
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rothgar13
Posted: Mar 7 2012, 12:50 AM


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A 5+ against most Vamp Lords, a mere 6+ against Ghoul Kings (not that it'll matter - the Ghoul King will attack him 8 times before Red Fury anyway). Not much to write home about.
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Cannibalbob
Posted: Mar 7 2012, 04:32 AM


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QUOTE (rothgar13 @ Mar 7 2012, 12:50 AM)
A 5+ against most Vamp Lords, a mere 6+ against Ghoul Kings (not that it'll matter - the Ghoul King will attack him 8 times before Red Fury anyway). Not much to write home about.

A 5+ is a decent save. And any save is better than no save. A 5+ save and a 5+ ward save translates to about ~55.5% chance to save a wound. That's about what a vampire is gonna get against Grimgor if they bring defensive magic items.

And a 6+ with a 5+ ward save is roughly a ~44.4% chance to save a wound. Those are not terrible odds, and that is actually slightly better than what the Ghoul will get against Grimgor unless you fight him next to a Mortis Engine (might want to kill that thing first...).

Out of curiosity, how does the Ghoul king get 8 base attacks? I don't have the book on me, but I don't recall him having that many attacks. Pretty sure he has frenzy, but I don't recall it granting that many extra attacks.

This post has been edited by Cannibalbob on Mar 7 2012, 04:33 AM
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rothgar13
Posted: Mar 7 2012, 05:05 AM


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Not Frenzy, Sword of Bloodshed. He doesn't worry about defense, as he has Regeneration baked in. On the turn he fights Grimgor, he pops a Potion of Strength and becomes an S8 monstrosity. At 8 attacks with S8, Grimgor doesn't make it to Round 2. The normal Vampire Lord would use an Ogre Blade to take him to S7, but he'd also bring The Other Trickster's Shard to make Grimgor re-roll that Ward save, so the odds to survive aren't quite as good as they look at first blush.

This post has been edited by rothgar13 on Mar 7 2012, 05:10 AM
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