Question came up on another forum, is it legal to declare a charge at a unit with a fanatic in front of it, then charge over the fanatic.

the O&G book notes you cannot charge a fanatic, and if moving after declaring a charge isn't charging gork alone knows what is.

as I see it you cannot legally declare the charge, as there is a "unit" (the fanatic) in the way and the little bugger isn't going to move aside.


nothing stops players moving over the nutters but the rule prohibits charging them.


Thoughts? reasoning?

You can declare a charge just fine. You're not allowed to charge the fanatic, but that's not what you are doing, you are charging the unit behind it.

Normally you'd not be able to declare a charge on a unit if another unit was intervening (with no chance of moving out of the way) but the fanatic has special rules that states that if someone moves over it, it's taken out and inflicts hits.

So, since the fanatic isn't an actual obstacle but rather merely a very painful roadbump, there's nothing that stops you from moving through it. Again, you're not charging the fanatic, you are charging the unit behind it and you are simply moving through it during the charge.

Squigkikka is right as the fanatic pops once you contact it and it dose the 2d6 hits to the charging unit. If said unit takes 25% model damage then it has to take a panic check.

Noted, as per my comments on WHF not convinced but it seems to be a clear consensus so accepting it.

many thanks.

It's like if you declare a charge against Night Goblins, and a fanatic pops out and only travels 4". You MUST continue the charge in that instance, and hence the fanatic is removed, and you take 2D6 hits.
If the fanatic just happens to be in the way, in later turns, then as Squigkikka said yyou are free to declare a charge at the unit behind the fanatic, an you will treat the fanatic exactly as above.

Fanatics are great at dissuading people from charging, but do not stop it happening unless they cause the charging unit to run away screaming...

RoV

I'm the lunatic who has challenged the perceived way in which Goblins affect charges. I posted this on the Warhammer.org forum But as you guys are the experts..

Please note that I'm not talking about the turn in which the fanatic is released rather the turn(s) after which it has been released.

Points for not being able to charge a Fanatic.

1 - When a fanatic is released it counts as a unit - Page 53 of the Orc and Goblin Army book - This is unambiguous.

2 - "There is one important principle that you should always keep in mind when charging: under no circumstances can a unit use its charge move to move into contact with an enemy it has not declared a charge against." Page 22 little rulebook. Please note the use of the term charge move - This is unambiguous

3 - "Force of destruction: Fanatics cannot be charged," - Page 53 - This is unambiguous,

4 - “A unit cannot declare an impossible charge- i.e. one that it cannot possibly complete, either because the enemy unit is outside of the chargers' maximum possible charge range, or because intervening obstructions make it impossible for the unit to make a charge move that allows it to move into contact. Page 22 little rulebook - This is unambiguous. If, say, the Fanatic been a Troll, a single Character or say a High Elf Eagle everyone would accept that they constitute and obstacle but people don’t appear to want to accept that a Fanatic is an obstacle….

Points for being able to charge a Fanatic.

1 - "Force of destruction: Fanatics cannot be charged, but models can move into contact with them……" - Page 53 - A IMHO this is ambiguous.

Overall then we have 4, unambiguous, points that indicate a Fanatic will prevent a charge being declared against a unit behind it against 1 point that indicates the fanatic does not constitute an obstacle and can be ignored for the purpose of declaring a charge…..

I’m therefore of the opinion that in this situation the fanatic can’t be charged through and nothing anybody has said here so far has changed my mind.

Link to full thread http://warhammer.org.uk/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=104634

Happy reading, it's a long one.

And nothing you have said here will change anyone elses mind or make the thousands of times our fanatics have been poped by charging units somehow not happen. The rules are have been there for along time and nothing you have said will change that. You can think what ever you want but out of all the warhammer players your are amoung the .01% that has a problem with this.

Really people when we are disscussing rules that have been established throughout the Warhammer community you really should leave your off the wall comments and "Opinions" where they belong. ie not in everyones face.

Indeed!

There is another forum for that.

Gentlemen, yes, it is a futile attempt to repudate a long standing and almost universally accepted rule, BUT, lets be nice.

I don't dispute any of the rules you quoted. However, I only left one in the quote above. It is the most relevant one, even if you think it is ambiguous.

It isn't.

It is a clear exception to the rule that units can only come into contact through a charge. "Fanatics cannot be charged, but models can move into contact with them."

This leaves no doubt. You say part of the rule is unambiguous, but the "models can move into contact with them" part is? I'm sorry, but how exactly is that not clear? You cannot charge them, and the rule specifically gives you permission to move into contact with it.

I say no to your attempted fanatic roadblock. :)

RoV

I think you're looking at the fanatic as an obstacle, this in my opinion is the error. The fanatic does not stop you from continuing your move after coming into contact with it. This allows a charging unit to move into contact with the fanatic, take their lumps and continue on with the charge move. The fanatic is not being charged but also is not an obstacle because it does not stop or even hinder movement.

put more detail on WHF, TL:DR version is simple:

when charging the only way to contact a unit other than the one you charged, is to also declare a charge against it.

thats 100% compatible with the bulk of the fanatics rule, just indicates that if you wish to contact something you have to declare a charge against it. even says "under no circumstances" next to it, seems to read like the old Necron "Living Metal" "no matter what" rule.

the fanatic rule simple notes you can "contact" them, the above these two do not contradict each other, one says you must delcare a charge - the other notes you "may contact".

if not for the first four words banning charging a fanatic you would be fine.

well aware this is not how this gets played, and equally aware thats highly unlikely to change (if it does I'm buying a lottery ticket), just noting thats what the rules say.

suggest an FAQ change to specifically note that "a fanatic may be contacted without needing to declare a charge against it" which removes the issue 100%


the argument against seems to be:

"we have always done it this way"

to which the obvious response is "and?"


play it however, the way people actually play it makes more sense, its just not what the rules say

To me the rules are pretty clear, you may charge over it at all times.

I'm guessing that is what they intend the rule to be, it certainly makes more sense, its just not what it actually says.

just needs to be clear you cannot charge a fanatic, but do not need to charge one to contact it - thus lifting all the relevant bits of the charge rules as you can now charge something else with a fanatic in the way without needing to declare the charge on the fanatic which you obviously cannot do.


problem is the O&G book may be clear, I don't think it is but you can sort of see what they mean. The main book is very clear though to the point of calling this an "important principle" and noting "under no circumstances" etc, which just needed a few words adding to the rule as outlined above.

indeed reading: "fanatics cannot be charged" as "Fanatics cannot be charged, but may be charged over as follows" clears this up totally by providing an explicit exception to p22 of the BRB and the principles of charging. either that or noting to treat fanatics as terrain when moving with "the following effects on units moving over them" covers it very nicely as you cannot charge terrain but can charge over it

You have to remember that lots of army books have rules that override main rulebook rules, the O&G as well. B)

The only way you can contact a unit is when moving or charging. You cannot charge it leaving just the movement.

Seems pretty clear to me. I wonder if the guy who joined the site just to support the other view is coming back...

;)

RoV

Everyone agrees that you cannot declare a charge against a Goblin Fanatic.

The Army book states that a Goblin Fanatic is a unit.

So page 18 of the little rule book states:

CHARGING MORE THAN ONE UNIT

A unit can normally only declare a charge at a single enemy unit. However, if there is no way at all of completing the charge against an enemy unit without touching another (sometimes known as 'clipping') then the charging unit must also declare a charge against the other unit(s).

As a fanatic cannot have a charge declared against it the charge against the unit behind the Fanatic is invalid.

No, no and no. That is not so. It is not a multiple charge.

As pointed out, and so far ignored, the special rules explicitly tell us you CAN'T charge the fanatic, BUT YOU CAN move into contact with the fanatic. How can you do that? Two ways. Move into contact by charging a unit behind them, or come into contact in the movement phase.
Yes, I know, you can't normally charge through other units. This particular one has a rule saying I CAN come into contact with it, and the rules then explain the mayhem that ensues (unless it's me and I roll a total of 3 hits on 2D6...).

It is against the normal rules which is why it has an exception. Why did you join up just to argue this point?

RoV

If you insist in arguing with rules from the main rulebook, at least refer to rules that gives you some credibility.

This is not the same as a charge against multiple units.

Why do you even bother using army book rules if you intend to ignore the rules in them?

point is reasonably simple*

the fanatic rule says "you may contact" the fanatic, which will override a rule that says you cannot.

point is, neither charging nor fleeing have a rule saying you "may not" contact another unit - indeed both already say you can, and provide rules for how to do this. as such they do not interact with "you may contact" the fanatic, as both already say you can, as long as you meet the conditions under these rules.

nothing in the charge rules say you can't contact him, they just say that while charging you must declare a charge in order to do so, the fanatic rule does not remove the condition, it just also indicates you may make contact - which you already could as long as you declare the charge



* though the rules on p2 & p3 provide an explicit way out of this, and indeed any other situation.

I have no issue with people playing the game any way they desire, justifying it or not as they see fit, as long as the game is fun they can move fanatics 4D6" or further, provide a reroll for the direction etc - rule of funny in effect etc.

Still can't see how it is a problem especially when you look under the Release the fanatics! Rules. Chargers must and all that but the sentence starts with moves - but charges has to bla bla bla etc.

You may play it differently, and that is fine by me, because I have never visited a gaming table anywhere where it wasn't played just as it is here by thousands of greenskin players.

"Release the fanatics!" is an easy one.

point with a charge - there is only one point the restrictions come into play - when you declare a charge you must see if it is legal, there is nothing requiring you to check again once you make the first check.

hence if you declare a legal charge then a fanatic pops out you charge is already legal and the "release the fanatics!" rule tells you want you "must" (not "may") do in this case.


Can play it either way here, only requirement is to know pre game which way people want to run it - easy to make an "assumption" as to which way peoples default view will be as well unless stated otherwise.


the other thread the OP asked if a charge was possible, guess the correct answer could be:

"no, but virtually everyone plays it as if the answer is yes"

Except it starts with moves... The charging part is just an explanation.

But if you play it diffently in your meta so be it, won't change anything as far as I am concerned.

Meh, my last post on this, as I think you decided what the result would be before coming here to ask the question.

You normally cannot charge a unit if there is a unit in the way that you cannot charge. UNLESS that unit has a clear exception in it's rules saying you can contact it.

Also, perhaps there is reason you leave this bit out; "The fanatic model is then removed and the unit may carry on with it's move." A charge is a move.

Play the way you wish, good luck convincing people that you can have your fanatic roadblock. I have NEVER seen it played that way, here in Australia or in the UK, and I regularly play tournaments.

:cheese:

RoV

For the record I've never played fanatics as road blocks, but then I've never had anyone try and charge over them either.

well aware how this is "normally" played, also aware how the rules actually read.

also aware GW are not known for well written rules that make sense, this cropped up from a question someone else asked, figured I'd see what people thought. a few have argued the way I do on WHF, most have argued otherwise.

Clear the way people would "expect" this to be played, and to be honest if the "normal way" of playing any given unit is different to the rules, as long as people are aware of this it doesn't matter - sort of like the rules on the game being played using "citadel" models v the way most people actually play that.


I knew how I read the rules before coming here to ask, I know them in a lot more detail now though - not that it matters as thats not how the rules are played which is more important than how they are written yes?

for giggles I lined my nine fanatics up and asked them.

one fell over, and took another out with him.
three said they were looking forwards to being charged over, so they could wrap that ball round some necks
three quivered then ran off screaming
the "decider" sat there and said nothing, for that one is a plastic model and not a real goblin after all


tournament play is generally not the best way to see how a rule is played, as they are not exactly known for playing the rules exactly as written without a Comp/FAQ pack to clear up a range of issues, and generally improve the game.

point being this is an easy one to clear up in favour of the way it is generally played - treat the little sod as terrain that has the "force of destruction" effects when you contact or otherwise move over them. sort of like an anti shipping mine without a tether at the whim of the currents and lord Neptune.


if nothing else, "Rule of Funny" allows charging over them, the chance for that elite unit to take a few hits, panic and flee is too good to miss - specially as the O&G player can force them to flee again very shortly afterwards in their own turn.

ho hum. splat splat splat.

Actually, tommoxyz joined a couple years ago (Joined: 4-April 10), but has not posted until now. ;)

So, as these are your first posts, tommoxyz: Welcome to da warpath.

You can go in circles with this. I think there is too much reading into the rules, and a mixed application of the general and specific in arguments. I'm stopping my circle at charge through my fanatics and manglers if you want. That is probably the intent and makes sense to me. After all, fanatics and manglers weren't designed to be used as shields to prevent a unit from being charged. That's not the greenskin way.