Title: How To Make Grimgor & His Unit More Durable?
TheGreenShogun - August 1, 2012 03:31 AM (GMT)
In the past three games (all 3k), I've played Grimgor and his 29 Da Immortalz. I run them in Horde formation (10x3).
I do not have issues with their killing ability. The issue is that they're not durable. The 29 Black Orcs easily get reduced to 0 from shooting, magic, and close combat.
The problem is that no other character can join the Da Immortalz. This means the BSB cannot join. A character with Crown of Command cannot join. Grimgor and the Da Immortalz desperately need stubbornness.
Often, Grimgor and his unit would lose combat and would need snake eyes to pass the break test. Of course, they don't and they get run down. If they actually outrun their pursuers, they cannot rally because it's below 25% unit size (needing snake eyes for that too).
Any idea how to make them more durable?
Make them 5 models wide?
Have Da Immortalz use SnS to have 4+ armor and parry?
Have a night goblin screen in front of them?
Get more Da Immortalz? (10 more? 20 more?)
BorkBork - August 1, 2012 05:11 AM (GMT)
i haven't used grimgor ever as i find him too much eggs in a single basket, but if you use him i would use a slightly bigger unit then 30.
Squigkikka - August 1, 2012 10:26 AM (GMT)
How the heck do Grimgor and Da Immortulz lose combats often? Against what, exactly?
Shadowlord - August 1, 2012 11:19 AM (GMT)
|QUOTE (Squigkikka @ Aug 1 2012, 10:26 AM)|
| How the heck do Grimgor and Da Immortulz lose combats often? Against what, exactly? |
While I can think of a dozen units and chars that would crunch though Grimgor and his unit (Mindrazor chicks, Ogres with tooled up chars in the front, chosenstars etc.), the problem with fielding 30 of them will make them reduced to crap from shooting, magic etc. what the original poster wrote.
Have more units that require attention like manglers, chaff, savage orcs mayhaps, and while problematic due to animosity, screen them. Make them a less obvious target.
That or increase their size so they reach combat and deal out those rerollable 30+ str7 attacks (need a wide front opponent).
TheGreenShogun - August 1, 2012 02:31 PM (GMT)
In a game against WoC, a Nurgle Sorcerer cast Cloying Quagmire on the Black Orc. I think about half was killed. The spell was cast with IF.
Against Ogre Kingdom, two Ironblasters did grapeshot against da Immortalz. More than half was removed.
Against Empire, Grimgor and da Immortalz fought a horde of Greatswords with a Warrior Priest in it. The Greatswords had hatred, ward 5, and rerollable to-wound. Grimgor and Immortalz were winning and killing about 15, but the Greatsword was stubborn. Many Immortalz were killed in return. So in the 2nd round, the Immortalz no longer benefit from their hatred and choppaz. Then the Steam Tank came crashing into the rear. I didn't realize that the Steam Tank can charge in any direction due to its random movement.
polybus - August 1, 2012 02:50 PM (GMT)
Yeah, I always think Black Orcs in general are overpriced for what you actually get out of them. I mean they have some good matchups but mostly am underwhelmed by them. I think a unit like this should just be run 5 wide with shields and form them wide only against things that will be utterly in the BO's favor. Fighting side by side with some kitty cornered netter goblins could be ace.
BTW, the Ironblaster's with their grapeshot have to roll to hit with those shots. BS 3 -1 for moving, -1 if over 6" away means that the grapeshot will rarely be better than just firing the dang cannon.
TheGreenShogun - August 1, 2012 09:47 PM (GMT)
Ah, you're right about the grapeshot. I've always thought it's auto-hit. Next time, I'll let him know about this. I'm sure he made a honest mistake.
Malorian - August 1, 2012 10:00 PM (GMT)
I see the ironblaster issue was already worked out, and I really think the immortals should have had no problem with great swords.
Going with double choppa you strike first, hitting on a rerollable 3+, wounding on a 2+, and they only have a 6+ armor and a 5+ ward (which you should have dispelled). In return what's left (half the unit) hits you on a rerollable 4+, wounding on a 2+ and no save. Between you having more attacks, hitting first, and hitting harder, the immortals should win every time. Not to mention Grim taking out the priest in a challenge or by being in base to base.
I guess before all of this the first problem is that your unit doesn't have any room for losses. I take my black orcs in units of 40, and that's when there isn't Grimgor. With Grim you can bet I would take at least 40 each time.
You then need other targets to draw fire. Units like the 100 night goblins will draw template fire simply by the sheer number of models the opponent can take off (a matter you really don't care about as long as the black orcs are safe).
In the end you are taking the immortalz for the killing ability, but if you are losing combat you are doing something wrong and need to start breaking down those situations to correct them.
Shadowlord - August 1, 2012 10:46 PM (GMT)
|QUOTE (Malorian @ Aug 1 2012, 10:00 PM)|
| You then need other targets to draw fire. Units like the 100 night goblins will draw template fire simply by the sheer number of models the opponent can take off (a matter you really don't care about as long as the black orcs are safe). |
Who in his/her right mind waste shooting on Night Goblins, no matter the size?
Kill the leaders and LD5 steadfast ain't worth crap.
Better to focus on stuff that counts with your fire and/or units/models that will dent you or will be psychologically disturbing.
Malorian - August 1, 2012 10:50 PM (GMT)
Logically it doesn't make sense, but I see it all the time.
My opponent has his big 5 inch template and has the option of going after my savages, my black orcs, or my night goblins.
In their minds the fact that even a scatter is basically a direct hit and that you are going to be hitting and killing so many models is better than a situation where a scatter could do little and even a direct hit would hope to kill 5.
Shadowlord - August 1, 2012 10:56 PM (GMT)
I would never waste any shooting on a such a large and weak unit.
Total waste if you ask me.
TheGreenShogun - August 1, 2012 10:57 PM (GMT)
You're right that there is something wrong with my tactics and that's why I posted this on this forum ;)
It was my first time fighting the new Empire, and I'm still a bit new to Warhammer. I realized prayers are bound spells and bound spells can be dispelled, and I didn't try to dispell the Priest's 5+ Ward and Re-roll To-Wounds. Next time, I'll keep it in mind.
I just got two Mangler Squigs. I'm planning to get 2 more (my typical games are 3k). They do help out a lot.
The problem with challenge is that if I issue a challenge with Grimgor, he'll probably just pick the Champion. Grimgor would be rather be killing 3 more Greatswords than a lone champion.
Malorian - August 1, 2012 11:03 PM (GMT)
Shadowlord, you look at it this way because you are a greenskin player. Look at it from the Empire point of view and things chance. He wants his warmachines to kill as much as possible. He may also want the NG reduced so that his own units have steadfast on their side.
TheGreenShogun, place Grim in the unit so that when the two units meet Grimgor and the priest will be in contact, then don't issue a challenge. If his unit champ makes a challenge then yours accepts. If he doesn't issue a challenge Grim kills his warrior priest.
Shadowlord - August 1, 2012 11:13 PM (GMT)
|QUOTE (Malorian @ Aug 1 2012, 11:03 PM)|
| Shadowlord, you look at it this way because you are a greenskin player. Look at it from the Empire point of view and things chance. He wants his warmachines to kill as much as possible. He may also want the NG reduced so that his own units have steadfast on their side. |
Main army is Ogres, and I played Empire exclusively for six years prior to that.
O&G is just my current project and I definately disagree with your point.
Shooting at 3pts minis with LD5 is pointless and waste of ammo unless his LD unit is destroyed. I want your Blorcs and chaff dead, your savage horde running after crap and getting destroyed by a charge in the side, and most of all I want your General smashed so your NGs won't stand loosing with a single wound.
Malorian - August 1, 2012 11:20 PM (GMT)
And what if I put my general in the night goblin unit? ;)
Lets say this, I agree with you that the priorities are wrong if you target night goblins, but I can tell you that I have seen people do it over and over with gleaming eyes at how many dice they are rolling and how many models they are taking off the table.
Shadowlord - August 2, 2012 07:40 AM (GMT)
|QUOTE (Malorian @ Aug 1 2012, 11:20 PM)|
| And what if I put my general in the night goblin unit? ;) |
I still wouldn't shoot at it - but it would be my first unit I would try to charge. B)
I think we are in agreement that your opponents are shooting at the wrong models and that the Blorc unit must be larger than 30 to survive.
Marukas - August 24, 2012 08:28 AM (GMT)
When you take Grimgor, go 6 wide in deep formaton 35 imortulz, of corse you need shields for protection from shooting, and you need 2 mangler squigs... manglers will take some shooting from your imortulz.
And banner of swftnes, you need to run in combat fast as you can.
Tremendous - August 24, 2012 01:23 PM (GMT)
I think you need to add more BO's to Grim's unit if you want em to be effective. Orcs are always better in LARGE units. Doesnt matter the flavor, More = better.
Also, Shadow, I know its been a while but I personally think that people fire at Night goblin units because they believe (And rightfully so) that 3 fanatics are going to come flying out of them and do an insane amount of wounds if anything gets to close. Its the reputation of what could come out of the unit, not the unit itself, that causes night goblins to catch so much artillery.
I see people take 2 units of 20 NG's one with Fanatics, one without, and their opponents tend to get frustrated since they have no idea which unit to fire at.
Groznit Goregut - August 24, 2012 02:19 PM (GMT)
I think going deep instead of wide might be a solution. That and making sure those important augment/hex spells don't go off.