Title: Rock, Paper, Scissors
Description: -Getting better at the game
Lexington - June 8, 2012 11:05 PM (GMT)
Can we discuss Greenskin "rock-paper-scissor" tactics e. "what works well against what"?
-Squigs: Best used against great weapons (iron guts, bestigor etc)
Weak against high I, multi attack units (L.Seaguard hordes etc)
Squigs generally do well agains everything in close combat since even if they lose, they bite back.
-Boar Boys: Haven''t really found a situation yet where they shine...
Very weak against high Str, I>2 units (Chaos, Swordmasters etc)
Very hard to find a place for boar boys, best suited as a very dedicated flame banner unit to hunt ABoms and other regen monters.
Please chip in!
rothgar13 - June 8, 2012 11:11 PM (GMT)
Good against - Just about any infantry and monstrous infantry unit you can think of.
Bad against - Chaff units that can take advantage of your Frenzy, tarpits that can slow you down for more than two turns, monsters with very high Toughness.
Best used - A block of 30-40 Big 'Uns with a Shaman that has the Lucky Shrunken Head seems to be the way to go here.
Johnny-Crass - June 8, 2012 11:52 PM (GMT)
While I strongly dislike thinking in Rock Paper Scissors mindset I will pitch in
Best use: MSU/MMU removal
Bad against: Fast Chaff
Best used: Pairs
Morten C - June 10, 2012 10:59 AM (GMT)
The boar boys is a great unit, but you have to remember that their main attribute is their movement! The can destroy chaff, and threaten with flank charges. In my last fight against daemons, I wish I had had a boar boy unit of 10 or so. They would have helped me put pressure on the daemons by capturing a flank.
Not many units dare to advance if they know that they're moving into the flank of boar boys. And with all our warmachines, that means that we can hold back and shoot his nasty units.
Being 20 pts incl upgrades does make them too expensive to charge any decent unit head on.
As usual though, you need the synergy! manglers, wolf riders, chariots. You need that stuff to draw fire away from the boar boys!
Squigkikka - June 10, 2012 03:10 PM (GMT)
I don't really think you can do a rock/paper/scissor comparison for Warhammer. Too many units perform on a similar basis or win over a supposedly bad matchup simply by attacking in the flank, being more in numbers or whatever.
For example, I would not say squigs are weak to either high I or many attacks specifically. Of course that also depends on how many squigs you have! If there's only 10, then high I is bad news... but if there's 30 squigs you couldn't care less.
We could take your lothern seaguard horde for example (DAMN that's expensive?). If there's 40 of them, they'll hit 30 and wound 15. If we assume a squig herd of equal size (40 squigs and 10 handlers is still cheaper than Lothern) then we'll have 35 attacks, 17,5 hits and about 14 wounds.
So, they are pretty much even.
The best you can do imo is not think of it as Rock/Paper/Scissor, treat every unit individually instead and think "Can my X beat unit Y? And under what circumstances?".
theorox - June 10, 2012 04:16 PM (GMT)
|QUOTE (Squigkikka @ Jun 10 2012, 03:10 PM)|
| I don't really think you can do a rock/paper/scissor comparison for Warhammer. Too many units perform on a similar basis or win over a supposedly bad matchup simply by attacking in the flank, being more in numbers or whatever. |
Lexington - June 12, 2012 09:08 AM (GMT)
@Squigkikka: Don't forget stand and shoot. And yes, I have never had that many squigs in a unit so mine tend to get chopped up before they can bite. And also, not caring seems a bit arrogant to me (no offense at all); if you had the choice to strike first, wouldn't you take it?
I realize there are no sure wins/losses like in rock/paper/scissors, but having favorable match ups tilts the odds in your favor.
Wouldn't all of you agree that the game can be won/lost in the deployment phase? Why is that? Match ups play a big part in Warhammer. Maybe I should have named this thread "Good vs Bad Match Ups for O&G" instead.
No unit is equally effective against all units and I seem to be learning that the hard way; I am just looking for an opportunity to learn from other peoples' experience.
Squigkikka - June 12, 2012 01:00 PM (GMT)
Striking first is neat, definitely. But for 40 Lothern Sea Guard you can get 60 Squigs and 15 Herders. Striking first isn't that important anymore with those numbers! Of course, Lothern Sea Guard isn't exactly the best comparison because they are not generally considered top notch!
What I am saying is that sometimes striking first is nice, and sometimes it doesn't matter very much. While it's absoutely fine to sketch up a general idea of what Squigs are good and not so good against, I think that making sweeping statements such as "Poor against high I" is a bit too broad :P
An enemy that Squigs don't do well against most of the time is Swordmasters, but only if they are hit in the front and if there's sufficient numbers of them. Those multiple attacks S5 ASF reroll really hurt, that's for sure!
Krolog da FaceMangler - June 12, 2012 04:52 PM (GMT)
|QUOTE (theorox @ Jun 10 2012, 04:16 PM)|
| Rock-Paper-Scissors-Lizard-Spock? :P |
This is a never ending game as we will all choose Spock :wub:
Dam you Shelden Cooper!
I for one dont care for Rock-Paper-Scissers as I try to always hit flanks and redirect units. My battle lines are never lined up straight across from the unit I want mine to fight.
staticelf - June 13, 2012 09:57 PM (GMT)
to get us back on track.....
Good Matchups: Chaff Units they can wipe out with their impacts. Also can be used to help out a unit (such as BOrcs/SOrcs) who are already in combat and could use their impact hits to tip the CR balance (Note: They need to be able to wound the enemy more than they will give wounds to the enemy!?!)
Bad Matchups: letting them get charged and cut down due to poor movement choices or fast chaff units. Big blocks of elites will cut them apart but if using multiple wagons you may be able to "whittle down" a large unit of elite troops to a smaller less lethal block before they can get into combat with your BOrcs/SOrcs.
I also like to use the wagons to catch those weasley units that would run away/stand and shoot by Random Moving into them with the wagons first then charging in with the Orc Blocks after.
Johnny-Crass - June 14, 2012 12:01 AM (GMT)
By after you mean your next turn right? As charges are declared and move well before random movement
staticelf - June 14, 2012 02:03 AM (GMT)
Oh yeah might want specify that. Catch the unit one turn with random move (hopefully kill it) and then charge in next turn with block to finish it off (and save your heroic wagon if possible?)
staticelf - June 15, 2012 03:15 PM (GMT)
Good Matchups - Monsters as their Choppa GWs are very strong (especially regen monsters if they are running a flaming banner). Str 3 Troop Blocks (usually core) because they can break out the Choppa extra hand weapons to do a bunch of CR then use their armor rolls to cancel out most of the str 3 wounds that are caused.
Bad Matchups - I wouldnt say Str 4 (usually elite) Blocks are a bad matchup but what really counts is the question of can you statistically end the first (choppa) round of combat with more CR and more Borc Ranks than the Opponent? (if not this is where I add in one or two of my waiting Spikey Roller PWagons or chariots x3 to tip the stats in my favor.)
Other Bad Matchups are elite blocks with a bunch of killy characters as Borcs are not super CR generators due to their avg WS (for elites)