Hi All!

We have a new Empire book and many people are complaining it has broken their army. Their Core troops have gone up a point. The Steam Tank is only T6, and the Arch Lector's War Altar is no longer unbreakable. Oh, and Warrior Priests don't gain Dispel Dice every round.

They did gain a few things. Their detachments gain the special rules of their parent unit, including augments. Does that include hexes, too? There are also a number of new units, too!

DEMI-GRIFFIN KNIGHTS = Griffins without wings that are Monstrous Cavalry. They can take lances or halberds. They have a 1+ AS and are otherwise like Inner Circle Knights. Tough guys, but very expensive.

I would assume Doom Divers, fanatics, Black Orcs with GW, and Orc Shaman with Fists of Gork will take them down!

There are some new chariot type units, but I don't know the full rules on them. I'll let someone else chat about them.

WITCH HUNTERS = Heroes that can snipe out another character. They have the Killing Blow ability. I'm sure there are a few other rules, too.

So.....lots of good stuff to talk about! This is just an intro post to get people chatting about them.

I'd say the first thing to worry about are the buffwagons (Celestial Hurricanum and Luminark of Hysh). +1 to hit or a global 6+ Ward save are no joke, especially when they generate extra PD (Hurricanum) or DD (Luminark). Getting rid of those is priority 1 for our artillery, and running an Orc Big Boss into them can also work (just don't let it run into you!).

Next, bring some heavy muscle, because Empire is a fairly well-armored army. State Troops aren't (but those aren't much of a challenge for our units anyway), but Greatswords and Knights are both tin cans that need to be opened. Speaking of Knights, beware of the Grand Master - he can now carry the Runefang, which means if he gets to land a couple shots on our Warboss, he's in deep trouble.

After that, magic is the standard "watch out for buffs/debuffs/I-test-or-die" warnings, and you might want to advance under the cover of chaff, because a Helblaster Volley Gun can potentially take a big chunk out of a unit.

That's all I have... for now.

It also seems that the hellblaster can use the Engineer's BS skill to shoot and also use the Engineer for re-rolls. That means that these things will hit a lot more often and blow up less. I've seen some Empire generals taking two of these guys in each list.

It seems that our Rock Lobbas are going to be important for taking out the big stuff. Some people swear on Doom Divers, but Rock Lobbas are S9 and great for taking out things that are higher than T5. Enemy war machines and these big augment wagons seem the perfect target for our Rock Lobbas. Big units of infantry aren't a bad choice, either....

Oh....another note...Flagellants only have Frenzy for the first round!

I wouldn't expect to see Flagellants in many Empire lists going forward. They got nerfed pretty hard.

I would, they are still a good unit. What I would not expect to see are multiple massive units of them. They are too expensive and too easy to kill. However, they can be buffed and that can make them a bit more resilient. For instance, the luminark can give them a 6+ ward save in combat by being nearby, or a Warrior Priest (or the wagon) can grant a 5+ ward save in close combat. They also still hit quite hard in combat.

I expect to regularly see either one large unit or a couple small/med ones. They are somewhat like a self-buffing squig herd unit.

I agree. I think the buffing wagons are some of the highest priority targets. I expect that the more dangerous Empire armies will be the ones that make use of layered buffs to make highly dangerous core troops. These will then be supported by more self-sufficient units and artillery. The key to fighting something like that is to knock out the source of the more dangerous buffs.

With that in mind I think the most important buffs to take out come from the War Altar and the Hurricaneum (+1 to hit in close combat). The Hurricaneum is pretty vulnerable to artillery (even spear chukkas). The War Altar is roughly the same, although it has a 4+ ward - so it is likely to be tougher to take down. In addition, killing the War Altar might not remove full access to some of the buffs since all of it's buffs are standard Warrior Priest buffs. So units can still get them if there are still Warrior Priests.

So Warrior Priests become another priority target. They will be in units most of the time, but they don't have the greatest stats around. So you should probably allocate a fair number of attacks to them by normal troops if you can. But you can also dispel the buffs they cast.

Dispel priority is going to be a big deal against the Empire since they have very good access to buff spells through both wizards and warrior priests.

Given all the buff ability they have I think it is important not to underestimate the combat potential of any of their core units. The statlines for state troopers is not very impressive, so there may be a tendency to overlook them as being dangerous, but with the right combination of buffs they can be made quite potent. So once again the key is to be aware of what buffs the various models can give out, and how to neutralize those buffs to prevent them being stacked against you.

I would be prepared to face armies without War Altars as well. It got more expensive, and no longer protects the Priest on top of it. It has some nice bubble effects, but I wouldn't be shocked if people took a General or a Grand Master and stuck them into a unit of Greatswords/Reiksguard Knights and essentially made those Unbreakable (Ld10, re-roll, Cold-blooded Break tests, and the Knights are also ItP).

Actually, beware of the Grand Master - he can have a Runefang as well as a 1+ save and force you to re-roll Ward saves thanks to the Other Trickster's Shard, which is pretty devastating. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised to see an Empire army headed by a cavalry-star.

I think it will depend on the player. For infantry heavy forces I expect you will either see the War Wagon or individual Warrior Priests in units. They have some really good unit buffs, such as reroll to-wound or 5+ ward save. I cannot imagine a player fielding infantry and not trying to get those buffs onto his units. The War Wagon can hit multiple units with one buff, or you can try to spread them out a bit with multiple warrior priests. Using multiple warrior priests would give a bit of redundancy in case some die, or your buffs are dispelled, but they also would use up more power dice.

I could certainly see someone deciding to spearhead a force with cavalry, but we should not have much issue with those builds. Greenskins have never really had issue with cavalry given access to fanatics and doom divers.

Worth noting that augment spells targetting regimental units do not boost the detachments. Only the warrior priest augment boosts do.

Just something to think on for dispel priority.

Are you sure? If so, that makes Warrior Priests even more needed in Empire armies.

One question I have is are Warrior Priests considered Wizards for the 'Eadbutt spell? Can we blast 'em?

I don't have the Empire book on hand, but I think the answer is no. A character is stated to be a wizard in their army profile and I don't think a Warrior Priest is designated as a wizard.

The spells they cast are all bound spells and not normal magic spells.

The only thing I've come up with so far is "Kill the characters and buffwagons" and then you should have it set. :)

Theo

I've gone on Warhammer-Empire.com and basically see two types of lists. One is the All Mounted list and the other is the Lots of State Troopers, cheap heroes, and buffs.

I could see Spear Chukkas not being a bad choice against either list. The mounted guys won't like the Chukkas. The big buff wagons won't like the chukkas. Ranked units (while not ideal) don't like the Chukkas.

Reading the book, the part about warrior priest powers is listed under the Warrior priest Special rules where it states if a prayer affects a regimental unit any detachments to that unit also gain the bonus.

Reading through the detachment special rules there is no mention of spells being passed from one to the other only that they use leadership of the regimental unit or that they gain frenzy/stubborn/itp/hatred (plus a couple more examples) if the regimental unit has them.

I don't think the warrior priests classify as wizards either.

Does anyone think that all the hero options in the new Empire book might bring out the Common Goblin and the Sneaky Skulkers? I think they could be a great way to deal with Warrior Priests, Empire Captains, Witch Hunters, and the like. Or do not enough people actually own Common Goblins enough to make that happen?

If they did, do you think it would be worth bringing them out?

I have some goblins that I find very useful against empire. With a shield, they can go well against core block like swordmans, even halberdiers.

Usually, my opponent put mages or low armored characters in big infantry block like this and my skulkers love this :) Try it, you'll see...

On paper it looks like a decent strategy, although I'm also in the camp that thinks the common goblins with shield and shortbow look like a decent choice for any O&G list.

A lot of VC lists are also pretty character heavy, and although they're generally tougher to kill, they're also especially critical to their army. I see a lot of vampire heroes (not lords) alone who are ~250 points, not to mention all the little necros running around. Quite a few VC lists that I see have 4+ characters (although some just have 2 as well).

For 250 points, you can get a unit of 50 common goblins HW/shield, shortbow, standard, musician and 3 skulkers. Probably not going to be successful all that often, but seems like it may be worth the chance.

Alternatively, you can probably get a couple of decent sized common goblins units (30ish) with skulkers and just use them as suicide units. In that context, it's probably not all that hard for gobbos to earn their points back against character heavy armies.

I'll stop rambling now...

Try to pull his units away from his leadership bubble. Also units with priests and detachments can be dangerous. Only engage if you can force the detachment into a position where it can't move to get a counter charge into your flank.

So to echo a few of the points already raised and add a few of my own, this would be my 4 step guide to taking on the empire.

Step 1: Army selection, A lot of the combat blocks you will be facing will be stubborn or have 3D6 on break tests, therefore build your army to cope with long combats. They also rely on combat buffs to be effective so I would definitely take aL4 for the bonus to dispel.

Step 2: Ranged combat, as has already been discussed the main targets are the artillery and buff wagons. Which ones depends on your army and deployment but I would focus on the chariots if you are going to be into combat quickly, cannons if you have monsters and HVG if you are going to have any of your key units in range of one. Doom divers are obviously great against knights.

Step 3: Close combat:, Get some trolls in against their knights and demigryphs and they will be in all sorts of trouble. Manglers and fanatics will also do the trick if they don't get shot first. For the infantry blocks target as many attacks as possible against the characters, e specially the wizards and the warrior priests, use nasty skulkers if you can.

Step 4: Waaagh, by now all they should have left are a lot of puny 'ummies. Without all of the buffs they should now be easy pickings for your far superior orcs. Realistically O&G armies are very well equipped to deal with empire armies thanks to our ability to field lots of things that can penetrate armour.