Thought I'd start up just one more thread to get us going on the Handbook, this time on the sneakiest sneaky tactics available to O&Gs in the 8th Edition of Warhammer Fantasy.

I've seen a few sneaky tactics over my time here (from dodgy use of Nasty Skulkers, to character placement and many many more naughty-goblin tactics), so if we could use this thread to compile information from previous threads and of course, try to come up with some new and mean-spirited devices to crush the hearts of our non-green opponents with! :D

I'll start with one (although someone will have to confirm this) - you can release fanatics from the back of your Night Goblin regiment or the sides so that it lands where the enemy unit will end up in combat with you, there fore netting you 2D6 of killy fanatic blows. Or is it 3D6? Or could I be entirely wrong? Haha, I guess that's what this thread is for... :wub:

Ehm. Adding a goblin boss to a unit of wolves to get vanguard, then leaving the unit to go WM hunting.

Night/goblin bosses in a unit of NG with netters to essentially make them a T5 wall al la orc bosses / OK bruisers and hit as hard with GWs. Can remove steadfast if combat won this way.

Various tactics involving 20 and 25mm bases. Like above, instead use orc bosses to make them T6, hit harder, better WS and Ld. Can keep characters safer.

Good ol hand of gork for complete surprise manoeuvers.

goblin big boss, dragonbane gem, unit of 5 wolf riders, vanguard and get in the face of the bloodthirster (or any flaming attacks), removes him from the game

Fanatics from the rear doesn't work so much anymore. With the new 8th Ed book, whenever an enemy unit touches a fanatic in their movement phase, they take double damage and kill the fanatic. So, releasing them from the front is just as good. Well, just don't roll over an 8. You do measure when to release from the closest point. You can try to release from the far corner to their far corner and try to make it longer.

As for the Sneaky Skulkers, you can put them in a unit with champ and another character. When a unit attacks, they can't attack rank and file. They have to attack characters (as Skulkers count as characters). So, if facing a horde, it greatly reduces the number of hits for their CR they can do. Oh, those characters in the front are most likely dead and it only works for a turn, but it can work. I was able to stop a horde of Hammerers for a turn and able to flank them when it was my turn.

As for generic "sneaky" stuff, people tend to forget that Snotling Pump Wagons are 360 movement. Not crazy sneaky, but fun.

As for redirecting with Fast Cav, it's a bit different. Instead of fleeing when you get charged, you hold. Well, first you get up front and you position yourself at an angle. So, when they charge (and you hold) they align to your frontage. That means they either overrun off to the side or smash that unit and sit there. The goal is to then have a number of units that can charge it after smashing your fast cav and reforming. So, it delays and hopefully sets up the enemy unit for you to counter charge.

The skulker trick is actually crazy good. What was that, a horde of marauders? Can't get enough CR while I slap yer face in? Eeeexcuse me, Chosen Warriors? No one left to hit and all you got was a skulker?

I love that trick and I am thinking about using it as my only means of fighting things ever since it's cheap, comes from core and is suitably gobliny.

Groznit, you can kit out defensive goblins to survive the onslaught! Potion of toughness, fencer blades + glittering scales, 4+/4+ and things.

Yeah that Skulker trick is friggin' amazing. :lol:

I didn't realize that Goblin Bosses can benefit from the fast cavalry rule if they are in a unit of wolves or spiders... How is this possible?

The mount (wolf or spider) has the fast cav rule.

Yesterday I tried the sneaky goblin trick with a champion, a tough hero and 3 skulkers (in a unit of 38 goblins, shield). It worked perfectly, except that I got shot too much times. When I got in close with the shooting unit (dwarfs quarellers) I was at 17 goblins but it work perfectly, I won the 2 following rounds. He didn't have any characters in unit (except a runelord on an anvil) but I'll try it again to use killing blow on one...

Fanatics and manglers being bounced trhough units. Example:

Enemy


T
T


NG's

Where T is a couple of trolls. Keep about a 4,5-5" gap between the gobbos and the back troll. When the enemy charges the trolls you hold and send your fanatics into the trolls, one at a time. They won't need much at all to reach the trolls, and then bounce true and end up pretty much right in front of the trolls, thus inflicting 2D6 hits each! The trolls can take it decently too, they Regenerate and anyway they're cheap.

Another fanatic trick: Try sending your fanatics through the entire unit from the back rank, it doesn't say anywhere from wich point of the unit you have to send the fanatics... same deal as above, do it when an enemy charges your NG's.

Yet another: Reform your NG's 1 wide andl ike 20 deep, thus giving you ridiculously long reach with wich to throw your fanatics. The only restriction AFAIK on reforms is keep your centre the same, nothing about how far any model can move. Or has this been changed? :unsure:

All viable, the last one dirty and the second one questionable.

Theo

I'm sure this has been changed.

Yep, while reforming a model can move max. double of its movement ratio, so reforming Night Goblins cannot move more than 8". Anyway, in 8" you get something like 10 Night Goblins anyway so it doesn't matter very much.

- Cheers, Skarsnik.

Good to hear that our sneaky tactics are being tried, tested and successful! :yarr!:

Id go Dragonhelm and Potion of Foolhardiness, GW, LA, Shield and Wolf. Any flaming attacks cause fear in the model and in the case of terror I'd like to have an option of ITP just in case he legs it, still damn cheap. 3+sv and 2++flaming will protect from fireballs and shooting and even if theres no flaming attacks he makes a great warmachine hunter.

Arfa da Grate

I've never tried with trolls, but it's a beauty if you leave a unit of NGs an inch behind a savage orc horde. The horde will normally take 2d6 3+s to kill (3d6, but a 5+ ward save makes it effectively 2d6). The charging unit will receive 6d6 2 or 3+s to kill. Even against heavy cav or demons it still works an absolute treat.


Using Hand to port stuff in isn't particularly tricky, but works very well if you can drop night gobs v close to the enemy unit, guaranteeing their fanatic missiles hit. And they can follow up with bowfire nicely too (for what its worth) because they haven't moved.

I've used fanatics behinds trolls as they will regen a lot of the hits. I've found, though, that you can also put them to the side of the trolls and a lot of people will forget it, too. they charge the trolls, but you release fanatics out in front of the trolls. Enemy continues it's charge and lands on top of them. It's good as even if you roll higher than 8" it usually hits them.

Last game, I placed back my mangler 1'' un front of a chaos warriors unit after it pass through. I love Hand of Gork :)

Malorian from Warseer is the god of the sneaky tactics, here's his newest tactic video. I think this is awesome and very sneaky. :)

Suicidal Night Goblins

- Cheers, Skarsnik.

I don't think Malorians tactics are very good or well thought out :P The video you linked to is a terrible tactic because it actually helps the opponent get closer quicker. How so?

Well, Malorian has got a pretty important bit wrong. The idea he has is based on the assumption that the night goblin big boss dies and the charging unit isn't allowed to overrun or do anything. Problem is, they are allowed to both reform and overrun (FAQ, 3rd answer under close combat).

So instead of delaying the opponent for another turn which is his intention, he gives the enemy block a 2D6 + Movement charge that then is allowed an overrun or reform. This will take it further than it would've if it simply had marched.

A much better tactic would be to buy a naked goblin big boss on a wolf for 47p (instead of the 55p this costs, boss + fanatic) and have him act as a diverter instead. Put the wolf boss 1" from the block you want to delay, angle him in a way to that overrun results in going the wrong direction and force the opponent to reform, letting him only gain 1-2" altogether.

If I understand the FAQ correctly, the enemy can overrun the Night Goblin Big Boss if they have first managed to make a successful charge first and after that the Night Goblin Big Boss disappears.

For an example, let's imagine that a Shaman has charged an enemy unit (for some reason). In the magic phase the Shaman explodes and dies. The enemy unit can make a reform just like if the Shaman had been killed in a close combat, because the FAQ says so.

If the enemy never successfully makes the charge, why would it get to make an overrun at all? I'd say it's a failed charge as the charge cannot be done. I'm not 100% sure does it work like this but at least this is how I see it.

- Cheers, Skarsnik.

Refer to the FAQ instead of not being sure :P Here's the exact wording, and it doesn't mention it having to be a succesful charge or not- just a charge.

All the necessary recquirements for the charging unit are fulfilled, that is, it charged and the unit it charged got destroyed. It may overrun or reform.

* Skarsnik closes his mouth and sneaks into the shame corner *

To be even more sneaky!!! Charge a unit with a wolfrider boss, or wolfriders (plain 50 pts) into opponents unit. Use the 2 inch long cavalry base to get a release of 6 inch when you move your nightgoblins forward, putting fanatics into wolfrider and thru the opponents unit.

The wolfriders will probably die, but thats good, becuse now you can do magic and shooting against unit. And it can not overrun becuse its been charged.

That is too much exploiting of rules for my taste. I've thought about charging with cav lined up in a row 1 wide and 5 deep, but it looks dumb and feels dumb.

Haha, perfectly viable though- except in that case you can't get within 8" from the back. :)

Theo

You don't have to if you walk up along the side of the unit.

Don't forget the exact same method could be used to deliver a mangler squig from your part of the table, since the charge move happens before random movement. Then you aim the Mangler squig so that it hits the unit, travels through the wolf riders and then into what they charged and out the other side for a possible turn 1 mangler delivery.

It's utter filth and is why I haven't shared it- but it's not like I haven't thought about it :P

My only problem with this tactic is that it assumes we want the fanatics to go through the opponent's unit, which personally I dont! I'd rather the fanatics be sitting in front of my opponent so that when he is forced to finish his charge then he'll finish on top of the fanatics and cop double damage with no repercussions to me = winning.

Arfa da Grate

We play dirty; i like the tactic. especially if you fire 3 fanatics in an echelon and the overrun you (read: FAQ) "allow" them, but this overrun gives them the option of plowing through more fanatics, or reforming and taking more of a pounding with rocklobbers, magic etc.

eat it swHordemasters[jerks] !

having said that

i would hate to see it played in a friendly match because it really is one of those situations where the rules dont go far enough to cover every possibility and its gunna be an arguement and a sore point.

Best tactic for night goblinms is 'misdirection'. Even if there are no fanatics in a unit before my opponent even moves close to them I say 'don't forget you need to stop 8" away so i can deploy any fanatics' I always have 12ish next to the table as well just to reinforce the fanatic factor. Last week a pegasus knight ended up stranded in front of my black orc and 2 night goblin units after going in for a failed fanatic bait.

Heh, unfortunately I play most of my games in an open tournament environment so that doesnt really work for me, but I can see how it'd be fun :D

Arfa da Grate

Well, I didn't know Malorian made videos for OnG. I'll have to pay attention to them. I see he plays my old friend, OnceBitten. Darn that fact that he had to move away!

rules says that you don't tell your opponent do you have fanatics or not

Yes, but if you are playing an open tournament, the rules of the event means you have to tell your opponent if they ask.

Open tournaments usually involve having lists you hand over to your opponent so he can see everything.

that kind open tournament rules will break against rules in O&G army book. Even when it's commonly used.

No it doesn't break against any rules. The rulebook says the game can be played with both open and closed lists, and it's up to the players (or in this case, tournament organizers) to decide.

The intent of charge is completed charge. Lets say they declaired a charge but failed. During the magic phase they do a spell that wiped the unit out. This is before Close combat. Does this unit get a overrun or reform from victory since they charged the unit that was wiped out?

Please point out where it says it has to be a completed charge.

While it doesn't say "completed charge", the FAQ is in the close combat stage. So only completed charges are charges.

If you state that the word charge alone can be either failed or completed. Then you agree that if a spell wipes a unit out that was a target of a failed charge then that unit (the one that failed the charge) can do a overrun move or a reform. Likewise on 2nd round of combat, I tried to charge a on going combat but failed, I would get +1 charge CR since a unit did charge the combat.

That is actually a good point worthy of consideration. Hmm.