Ello' ladz!

This is my first post but I have been watching these forums for a very long time, and done a lot of reading on the tactics, tips, and advice. I have come up with a stragety similiar to the hook, but intended to be used for big games. I haven't written the darn thing up but I will give you a premise. I want to know if it's even worth looking into.

As we all know and it's well said that the tournament scene is filled with units the cause fear and what not. Our units are well, unreliable. Common knowledge. This stragety i want to develop is called the double hook Ead butt.

Basically we use the hook stragety, on each flank, each hook potentially a crushing force in itself, and a strong middle for the headbutt. This stragety is intended for more than 2000 point games as fielding all the units would be expensive. The headbutt part would consist of units that need to be close to our general (night goblins, boyz, etc) while the outer part of the head would consist of a few flankers that can be independant (black orcs, savage orcs, etc)

The hooks would be our savage boar boyz, our chariots, our giants, our trolls whatever we wanted it to be! This gives our opponent a lot to think about, as he has to worry about two different flanks, and a strong center.

What do you guys think, should we attempt to build this stragety or what?

Leaving your trolls alone in a flank is doomed to fail.... ld 4 on a stupidity test is just asking for a unit that will just keep moving forward doing nothing.

Also put in mind that alot of those hook units you mentioned suffer from animosity, Be sure to atleast have a spare unit there to take the other ones place if it rolls a 1.

Keep trolls close to the general, thats where they can dish out a lot of damage, do what you want to do and scare the dung out of everyone.

About fear and terror, bring either a lot of chukkahs, some itp units and perhaps a ng big boss on a squig with wollopas.
If your facing something like VC then your best bet is savage boyz in general. but you can also make due with normal boyz if you keep your general close or have a character in the unit with higher ld than 7, same with ngs....

Just aim not to be locked into combat for too long and you'll be fine... thats what often brings my units down against VC,TK and DoC

Just my (2c)



Good luck kicking ass with a pretty good strategy in general.
Might try this one out in the next tournament, with some changes perhaps :D

Ha ha ha ha just suggestions, I PERSONALLY wouldn't take trolls on my flank.

I would take savage orc boar boyz because they can act independantly, or a wyvern, or a giant. Things that can survive independantly, of course with screens or shields of spider riders or wolf riders.



Please, more feedback is welcome.

Trolls could work really well in the center, though. I know you would probably want to save the points for your flanks, though. Still, large units of trolls are pretty resilient in the center and are great anvils. They just need something to be the hammer for them at times.

I think a double hook would be a great idea. Part of what makes the Hook work, though, is being fast. So, you will need to have a lot of boar boyz, giants, wolf chariots, etc on the flanks to really make them work well.

Yes, I would want to save my points for the flanks, faster flanks of course. Savage boar boyz are a must have for one of the flanks, due to their independence. The giant as well, but how successful is a Wyvren, and who should ride it? Wolf riders are a must as well as are spider riders. I haven't given much thought to chariots...

Glad you posted Goregut, I remember you were of invalauble help to the original Hook concept. Look forward to getting more of your wisdom.

Thanks for the compliments! I'll take that as high praise if you consider my advice to improve the wonderful thread that is The Hook Thread.

Is a wyvern good? Hmmm......there is not an easy answer to that. The wyvern and warlord would be the best tactics in your strategy that I can see. The shaman tends to get shot up if he isn't hiding. The wyvern lord can be a nice combat beast and get places fast. He's 500 pts, though! I know you said that this is for playing bigger games, but I am not sure how big a game you are going to play? If you are playing 5k games, then it shouldn't be too much of a problem. You can get a lot of other things for those points, though.

It might come down to what minis do you have? If you are just short on more boar boyz, chariots, and other fast things, you might want the wyvern. How big a game? Do you get two lord choices? A second lord to zip around the flanks can be a lot of fun. Having a general in the center of your lines will make your middle stronger and his leadership will help keep the other units from fleeing too much. A warlord on the flanks adds considerable hitting power, too, though. Which do you think you need more?

When it comes to chariots, I really mean wolf chariots. Boar chariots are tougher, but too slow. They only go 7" until they can charge 14". That's about the same as your infantry units. A boar chariot will be pretty slow. The wolf chariot, though, can move 9" and then charge 18"! Sometimes, they will be too slow for a Turn 2 charge, but they can be considered a 2nd wave that can help break combats that might get bogged down. If someone rolls their Insane Courage and you get flanked charged, the chariot will be a good thing to save your boar boyz! They are also good for taking out enemy fast cav and other smaller units.

Don't discount fast cav, either. If you are going with frenzied troops, you will want to screen them to ensure that your opponent doesn't make you charge off into some woods that will take you 2 turns to get out of. Stick the fast cav in front of them and you won't be forced to flee. Also, the fast cav are great for charging smaller support units. If you have an Empire unit with a detachment, you don't want them counter-charging. Charge the detachment with the wolf riders and hit the main unit with your important stuff. They can also be set up to help take advantage of the 2nd round situation. They can charge the flanks of any units that don't break (you don't want to get bogged down) or maybe charge that other unit in the middle in their flank. With 18" charge range, they can go pretty far and they are great for blitzing through enemy lines to cause uncomfortable situations. Sometimes forcing your opponent to react to something that isn't in his plan is the best weapon. It forces him to make mistakes that you can then capitalize on.

Sometimes it's good to pair a couple of things together. I've found a wolf chariot and a giant are great to work together. They have about the same speed and are hitting about the same targets. The giant can sometimes get crummy attacks and the impact hits of the chariot just help to really break that unit you hit. You don't want to get bogged down.

Ive actually had great experiences with trolls in units of 2 or 3.
They are great for holding smaller enemy units due to fear, regen and their vomit.
They are great if you play 2 as Stone trolls and using them near your squishy units(ngs) so that when that naughty aoe spell that is s2(not dangerous for t4) is going to hit everything it will most likely hit the trolls as well. giving you additional dd.
Also against Tomb Kings they are to ALWAYS be in line of sight of the casket.
giving you a almost guaranteed dispell of the light fire(or w/e its called) Incantation.

Did i mention the awesome flank charges on knights?
Charge a cavalry unit or another unit with just one rank and vomit on them making them completely unable to strike back. makes me chuckle everytime....


Just make sure you dont give them a too tough job to handle and always have a hammer unit close so it can pull them out of sticky situations.


And about wyverns, i prefer not to have a warboss on a wyvern because you cant possibly use him as a general... if you field any ngs,trolls or what so ever. He wont be in reach to supply them with his LD.
Plus he is a large target.... Costing you 300(200?) additional points making an pretty easy kill for most armies, Like Dark elves.....
4 repeater bolt throwers make for a bad afternoon. For you that is.

Check the 2nd warhammer facts. You cannot use the stone trolls MR against Area of Effect spells or the Casket of Souls. The Trolls must be targeted individually for the MR.

Goregut- The point limit is 3000-3500, whichever the hard boyz tournaments are now a days. My resources are practically unlimited, if we can work this out together I will have the models to back the list, let's work on this as if we could have any models we wanted.

:)

I've noticed a lot of people take a Shaman on the Wyvern, and have a Black Orc as their general to stay in the middle.

I had planned on making sure my boar boyz would be protected, clever generals would shoot them down or take advantage of the frenzy. I was thinking a spider rider/wolf rider screen

So you think Goblin wolf chariots huh? You'll take the speed over the harder hit? I'll definately pick up both and experiment. I reckon we should make a sample list sometime soon huh and tweak it from that?

I'm considering trolls in the center near my general... :P

"Q. What happens if an enemy unit with Magic
Resistance is in line of sight of the Casket when its
incantation is released? Do you really add the Magic
Resistance dice to the dispel roll (and very easily screw
up the incantation)? More generally, if one of the
targets for the Casket has a special ability against
spells (Magic Resistance, rebound, dice stealing,
casting score reducing…), does it apply to the whole
Casket’s spell effect?
A. Magic Resistance does work against the Casket’s
Light of Death, so long as the model/unit with Magic
Resistance would be affected. Where there is more than
one unit with Magic Resistance that will be affected,
only one model/unit can add their extra dice (usually
the highest). In all other respects, the Light of Death
counts as magic that affects any enemy unit that can see
the Casket, so other effects would also work as they
would against any other magic. Having said that,
however, a magic item that ‘rebounds’ spells isn’t going
to have any effect – the Light of Death only ever affects
enemies."


Taken from A GAMESWORKSHOP TOMB KINGS FAQ.
im not sure if im allowed to link to it so i can say this. Google Tomb King Incantations and it will come up a link called TOMB KINGS FAQ with a link to games workshop.

But what do you know, if you Tomb Kings fanboys cry hard enough then maybe they will fix it so you can have your almost uncounterable casket waste themed armies as well. :wub:

That FAQ is invalid.
It was released in 2006 and the more recent ERRATA (Errata > FAQ) changes the entire wording and thus mechanic of MR.

Casket of Soul does not trigger Magic Resistance.

Actually it was released 2008-02.
Does that make any difference?

Edit: Oh btw i read the erratas that came after the 2008-02 tombkings FAQ.....
You know what it said about MR? They added
"is targeted against the magically resistant unit"
where to be added to the text in the book.
YOU ARE WRONG


Can we has moar on topicz nowz?

I myself like the toughness of the boar chariot more, mostly because i face more bolt throwers and the like than cannons or s7.
Then also you can rely on it more to be closer to your army.
Its not always good to have your chariot on the other end of the table... alone...
If your taking a wyvern to go in their back-lines thought, this can be devastating for the enemy army to have not just terror but a chariot ready to charge in the front/back/sides of any unit trying to take out the wyvern.
the chariot can also end some of the bolt thrower trouble pretty fast.
Just be weary that you get easily shot down as gobbos....


Yeah keep your trolls near the center and near your general. thats mostly the place knights and other high value high armor save troops are heading.
and in those cases you have a static amount of kills to the number of trolls :P


make sure to pack alot of anti large target stuff at 3-3.5k points arrerboyz has always blown me away by their usefulness in firing away at large targets and units on hills.
small 21 groups of ngs with bows packing a fanatic and a musician can never fail.
just keep it so it wont flee throught your doomdiver or other ng units....

Alright, it's settled then, trolls shall form in my center, near the general as an additional part of the ead butt element.

What trolls do you recommend? Hill for the cheaper price?

I have more to add but I am gonna get some dinner, I'll put more thought into tieing the whole stragety together.

Thanks for the help guys!

I prefer having 2 stone trolls supporting the General unit but still being close to the night goblins to be able to support them.
Also you get the magic resistance against aoe spells(actually you do,if the trolls are affected) and also you get scaly skin which is a 5+ armor save.

River trolls is to much for too little in my oppinion.

Normal trolls is probably the way to go if you feel that you have a superb magic defense, meaning 5-8 dispell dice and 1 or 2 dispell scrolls.
plus you can have lots of them for a pretty small price.


I myself run around with 6 dispell dice + sneaky stealing.
and the stone trolls to compliment.
havent found a spot for a dispell scroll yet, and hope i dont need one either.

They all have regen, so count that they have approx double the wound it shows.

I got lucky with my trolls against a bunch of chosens(double 6 EotG) that got 16 hits or so.
I regenerated 14 of those 16, puked at them. and stayed :)

My magic defense is going to be the BSB and spirit totem, and several boyz around him, of course that's part of the main ead butt stragety, having the boyz that can't be independent close, and doubles up as my magic defense. Stone trolls I am leaning on, I think they look better personally, even if they are goofy.

You might have a hard time with points for the trolls, but if you are only going to use 2, maybe not.

Boar chariots are more sturdy, but they are not fast. They are only moving 7" a turn. If the idea of Da Hook is to have some fast moving units sweep a flank, boar chariots will not do this. Wolf chariots are the only chariots that will be able to participate in Da Hook.

'Ard Boyz is 3,000 pts. I started a list for you and threw in a bunch of stuff to see how points went. I ran out of points without really finishing it. I had a Warlord and Orc Great Shaman. There was the BSB with spirit totem and two goblin shaman on wolf chariots (one with 2 scrolls and the other with staff). I then had 2 orc units in the middle with 2 'ard grotz units (common goblins with shields). Each flank then had a giant, 6 savage orc boar boyz, 2 fast cav, and a snotling pump wagon. I think I hit 3k pts there.

Goregut- Do you mind posting the list on here so I can see it?

I'm at a different place in Iraq right now and my book is at my room.

Do you think Two giants is too much? If the wolf chariots are ideal, how come we use boar boyz in the hook, wouldn't they be too slow as well?

Far be it from this n00b to question a seasoned vet, I'm just trying to understand...

:lol:

You're in Iraq? You betcha I will get it posted. It won't be till tomorrow, though. Sorry on that.

Boar boyz can march 14". Chariots can't march. So, the wolf chariot will be moving 9" until it can charge, and then go the 18". Boar chariots only move 7", which is even slower than infantry. It then charges 14". I say just try it out and you will see that boar chariots are not fast enough. The wolf chariots are still like a 2nd wave along with the giants.

I don't think two giants are too much, especially with that many points. The idea is to have so many things for a cannon to shoot at that it doesn't know what to do.

Yes I'm in Iraq, unfortunately. Duty calls.


:(

Thank you I can't wait to see what sample list you had in mind. Yes I see your point now on the Boar chariots, that is lame. They wouldn't be able to keep up. Two Giants, one on each flank... I thought about a warboss or shaman on wyvern (not general) one on the flank and a giant on the other flank. I was thinking roughly 1500ish points gets spent on the flanks, and 1500ish gets spent on the head part of the attack force.

What about all those things that cause fear are there any ace tricks you have up your sleeve to deal with those threats?

Sorry to keep a serving man waiting! I forgot my laptop at home yesterday and I just don't have the time to hang on the forums much with the kids.

OK....here is what I was able to start with. I didn't go with a wyvern, as they just cost so much points. I figure this is a base you can use to start with and tweak it the way you want. I used one orc unit in the middle and two units of 'ard grotz (common goblins w/ shields) as they are pretty solid and will be around the General for LD. There 150 pts left over, though, so you can upgrade them if you want. I don't think I used all hero slots, either, so you can add another hero if you want.

Unnamed3000 Pts - Orcs & Goblins Army

1 Black Orc Warboss @ 270 Pts
General; Heavy Armour
Shaga's Screamin' Sword [50]
Enchanted Shield [15]
Warboss Um's Best Big Boss At [30]

1 Boar @ [0] Pts

1 Orc Great Shaman @ 339 Pts
Magic Level 4; Big Waagh; Choppa
Staff of Sorcery [30]
Nibbla's Itty Ring [20]
Dispel Scroll [25]
Dispel Scroll [25]

1 Boar @ [0] Pts

1 Black Orc Big Boss @ 180 Pts
Heavy Armour; Battle Standard
Morks Spirit Totem [50]

1 Boar @ [0] Pts

22 Orc Boyz @ 168 Pts
Choppa; Light Armour; Shield; Standard; Musician

1 Orc Boss @ [15] Pts

24 Goblins @ 120 Pts
Light Armour; Shield; Standard; Musician

1 Goblin Boss @ [8] Pts

24 Goblins @ 120 Pts
Light Armour; Shield; Standard; Musician

1 Goblin Boss @ [8] Pts

1 Giant @ 205 Pts

1 Giant @ 205 Pts

2 Pump Wagon @ 80 Pts

2 Snotling Crew @ [0] Pts

9 Squig Hoppers @ 135 Pts

6 Savage Boar Boyz @ 213 Pts
Frenzy; Choppa; Spear; Warpaint; Shield; Standard; Musician

1 Savage Orc Boar Boyz Boss @ [17] Pts

7 Boar @ [0] Pts

6 Savage Boar Boyz @ 213 Pts
Frenzy; Choppa; Spear; Warpaint; Shield; Standard; Musician

1 Savage Orc Boar Boyz Boss @ [17] Pts

7 Boar @ [0] Pts

1 Goblin Shaman @ 165 Pts
Magic Level 1; Little Waagh
Staff of Sneaky Stealin' [50]

1 Wolf Chariot @ [60] Pts

2 Goblin Crew @ [0] Pts
Spear; Short Bow

2 Wolf @ [0] Pts

1 Goblin Shaman @ 165 Pts
Magic Level 1; Little Waagh
Dispel Scroll [25]
Dispel Scroll [25]

1 Wolf Chariot @ [60] Pts

2 Goblin Crew @ [0] Pts
Spear; Short Bow

2 Wolf @ [0] Pts

5 Goblin Wolf Riders @ 71 Pts
Spear; Light Armour; Musician

5 Wolf @ [0] Pts

5 Goblin Wolf Riders @ 71 Pts
Spear; Light Armour; Musician

5 Wolf @ [0] Pts

5 Goblin Spider Riders @ 71 Pts
Spear; Shield; Musician

5 Giant Spider @ [0] Pts

5 Goblin Spider Riders @ 71 Pts
Spear; Shield; Musician

5 Giant Spider @ [0] Pts

Casting Pool: 8

Dispel Pool: 6

Models in Army: 127


Total Army Cost: 2862


Mayve the magic items aren't the best. Maybe you want something different? I figure the 3 infantry units in the middle. Each flank would have the savage boar boyz, giant, snotling pump wagon, goblin shaman on chariot, and some fast cav. Each flank isn't super heavy, but heavy enough that both of them should cause problems to your opponent. The middle isn't that strong, though. Make sure to put some fast cav to march blocking or diverting. Make sure to keep the middle back. Your hooks are fast, so they might not have to wait long before hitting the middle. The snotling pump wagons are best between the middle and sides. They are slow, but can go in any direction. Hit anyone that tries to get around your hook or hit his middle as it advances.

Interesting - this tactic used to be called the "Horns of the Buffalo" or something similar, after the ZULU tactics in the movei Zulu Dawn. The central "Anvil" is the "Head of the Buffalo" and gets stuck in holding the enemy in place, while the "Horns" come around each flank.

When it works it's pretty cool. But a refused flank often gets around it - throw some stubborn/ hard to kill/ disposable units at one Horn while the majority of your army sweeps to the other side and crushes the other "horn", then turns in and flanks the "Head". You bring numerical superiority against one flank, and if done right the enemy units on the other flank never see combat at all. Either redirected away from the center of the board, or stuck in trying to kill/ break a trash unit for most of the game.

A smart general, though, would not commit the flank that gets the bulk of the enemy. The idea with these flanks is that they are fast and can strike most enemy by Turn 2. Unless your opponent deploys with a refused flank, you will still be able to strike. If your opponent does deploy in a refused flank, you don't rush in with that hook/horn. You keep it with the middle. Advance both at him in an even battle line (or with the middle even moving further). This way, you can swamp his refused flank with more than just one hook/horn.

Also, if you can defeat what is on the unbreakable side, it should be fast enough to help out, too. Each hook/horn should be able to dish out some damage. The boar boyz, giant, and chariot should be able to help decimate anything that is trying to hold it up. Only a very large unit of very tough unbreakable troops would be able to stop you. If you do find yourself against such a unit....you might even be able to just bypass them and run past them! Each hook/horn is pretty mobile and might be able to cut across the middle and help out the other flank.

Also, if you see that the enemy is deploying in a refused flank, you don't have to stick with your initial plan. You can dump everything on one flank, as well.

A good foundation, I see you are a few points short on the list though... is that intentional? I also think it's interesting that you chose not to run night goblins.. is that to break up the predictability of the night goblins with something more reliable?

A good foundation. I like it so far, and supposedly I'll get back to Camp Victory on the 28th or so, so I'll be able to add a lot more things once I read my book cover to cover.

:lol:

And would you care to elaborate more Padraig? If this trick has been used before I'd definately like to know what it's weaknesses were.

Yes, I know it's short of the full thing. It's meant to be the foundation. I figure there is enough room left for you to tweak it to your taste. Do you want more heroes? Magic or combat? More units? Want to change numbers or go from common goblins to night goblins?

Speaking of Goblins, I was thinking you wanted reliability. You don't really want fanatics. I was thinking that they would most likely get in your way. Your Hooks will be slapping them around and trying to get in their backfield. Fanatics will just get in our way and hit your expensive units. I figured you didn't want that. So, if you aren't using fanatics, why would you want night goblins? Common goblins have a point higher in LD (even though you are going to be near the general), but they can also be 'ard grotz. For 4pts, you can have goblins with a 4+ armor save. You can get big units and they can last. Have your BSB and general near by and they can most likely hold. That's what your center is suppose to do. You can always spend your points and make them units of orcs, but I figured you could do it on the cheap with 'ard grotz.

As you can see, 3,000 pts can add up really fast. You are about out of points and you don't have a wyvern in the list. 3,000 sounds like a lot, but I always seem to run out of points very fast. I liked the 'Ard Boyz when it was 3500 better.

You should tweak the magic items for your great shaman as you like. I don't think I gave him a boar, but he should have one. It's a cheap way to get a +2 to AS and the movement can't hurt. You may not need all those dispel scrolls and I'm sure you can pick some better magic items. I'm not used to going magic heavy.

This list is meant to give you a base idea. Go ahead and tweak the whole thing till it fits what you want.

Alright, interesting point, I never thought of it like that. Duely noted. Now my next question is about the actual models of the Common Goblin. Do they come with hand weapons on the sprues?

I have never bought any I have mostly night goblins, so do they need some convertin' or do they come with hand weapons?

Common goblins don't come with hand weapons. It's a shame, really. My first conversion work was to get 50 gobbos with hand weapons. I still haven't painted half of them.....

There is word that the next starter set that comes out will have Greenskins and have common goblins in it. No one knows when that will be. Rumors say the earliest would be this summer. Others say when 8th Ed comes out.

You don't have to do common goblins, but 'ard grotz can be tough.

Got any tips for making hand weapon gobs?

There is supposedly a new box set coming out in november december... maybe we'll get lucky?

The old skaven arms are great. I just filed off the hair and it worked fine. Also, dwarf arms are good. Just use the arm as is, really. There are a lot of Empire arms from the Free Company set that are great. Skeleton arms are good, too. Sometimes you just use the weapons. Sometimes you use the whole arm.

Check out page 3 of my blog. Link in my sig.