Okay, so I considered posting on the old HE topic but given the changes to the new army book it is probably better to just start a new topic.

So how do we fight the new High elves, what with all their Always Strike First glory? Hopefully we'll get some positive discussion out of this! For the record I've yet to play vs. the new High Elves (I'm eagerly waiting though), so for now this is all theoryhammer. :rolleyes:

Anyway, might as well start with...

The Obvious

- Chariots with their impact hits should put out some serious damage against HE units. Even a snotling pump wagon has a decent chance of actually beating a unit of the feared swordmasters in combat (4 wounds and those swordmasters won't be able to strike back!).

-War Machines should still make a mess of the high elves as usual. I don't see Arrer boys being taken all that often but fast cavalry with short bows might be able to strip a rank or two from the nastier units. Night Goblins with short bows are, as usual, probably best used trying to shoot any dragons that come their way, especially the Dragon mages if your opponent is foolish enough to put one near your bow-armed gobbos.

- Fanatics, like shooting, can seriously mess up a charge by the high elves if you can pull it off. The trick is ensuring that the HE's only real sacrificial unit, the great eagle, does not draw your fanatics out first. For this reason it may be worth considering targetting the great eagles first with any shooting/magic you could possibly send its way.


Shooting

I know I've just dealt with war machines but I think this is a key point to make. Alot of the time there is very little reason for a HE army to charge us. They will always strike first anyway, so a smart HE player will probably be content to sit back in their defensive line and let us come to them.
This is why you need at least a decent amount of shooting and/or magic (if you're able to get past the High Elves own defensive magic). The fragility of the elves means that the risk of losing massive chunks of points to falling rocks/goblins will force the HE player into trying to engage you, which is going to be very helpful if you want to pull off some tricks of your own...

Combat

- Head to head, swordmasters are capable of doing a hell of alot of damage. 7 with a champion will net about 5 1/2 kills against shield-armed orcs or net-armed goblins. If shooting/magic isn't an option, the best approach should be to redirect, then flank those swordmasters, the former with something cheap like the ever-useful snotlings or goblin fast-cavalry, and the latter with something substantial enough to beat their tiny frames into a pulp.

- Despite all the fear-mongering, Spearelves only have a slight edge (by 1CR) against Night Goblins with nets or shield-armed orcs. A good rule of thumb then, is to make sure you can tip the odds in your favour by either dropping some elves to shooting, adding a hero, or pulling off a flank charge with fast cavalry (4 elves will kill 1 wolf/spider rider, which should be enough to keep your flank bonus).

- Beware the Dragon Princes! They get 2 Attacks each so on the charge they'll probably have only a marginally smaller kill count than the sword masters. Once again, if shooting/magic isn't an option then do your best to redirect and hit them first. Fortunately they'll only be S3 without their lances, so even with their striking first rules, if you can avoid the charge and engage them with something half-decent you should be able to take care of them (heroes aside, of course)


- Just one more point for now...remember that high elf armies are expensive. You should be able to severely outnumber your oppoenent which will give you two key advantages;

1. You will see where you opponent places all his big units before you have to place something critical of your own. This should enable you to match up each threat with something suitable from your own force

2. Hitting your opponents flanks should be easier. Not only will you have a longer battle line to envelop his, but your abundance of cheap sacrificial units should help you redirect his forces into exposed positions

That should be it for now. Would anyone like to add to that?

I'd like to add one thing:

Always wait for them to charge you!

If you charge them, they strike first anyway. But the biggest advantage of being charged is that the next turn will be yours (instead of the Elves' if you charge).
So forget about the Waaagh!, prepare your units to be charged and countercharge the next turn. (And maybe keep svg Orcs at home, but I just like them!)

ZOnq

Very true, so the trick is to convince your opponent to actually charge you, which is where the shooting comes in handy.

Of course in the event that the O&Gs are actually able to cause more damage from afar than you, then you've little choice but to advance yourself. If that's the case then I'm guessing the best approach would be to take advantage of your far-superior numbers and force him into getting hit in the flank with something substantial.

Fanatics could work right? Do some decent damage to those pansies before they even enter combat. :P

Top tips towards beating high elves (w/o a dragon!)...
a.) fanatics
- i recommend at least 3, i take six between two units w. hw/shields (no nets). High elf cavalry can do little against this but back down, widen the sphere of influence to limit his charge options
b.) spear chukkas
- i reccommend at least a pair, while obvious for most, the chukkas knock down a few sword masters [gork for bid a dragon!]. Ranks are a luxary to elves, should he pay for it, it is quite costly with 15pt infantry, make him bleed for it!
c.) magic
- while his natural resistance is deterring, i jump into the jaws of hell!!!, goblin magic is insane damage wise, and gork'll fix it is great to ruin a combat that looks his way. Remember elvish armor=no armor, i say take 4-6 levels but thats against a non-dragon list, if he does i think the ld. 9 boss would be best
d.) knock out the chariots!!!
- focus on chariots first [specifically lion chariots], they are nasty and will surely break you, chukka and zzap em!
e.) "god speed"
- believe it or not, luck is big, elves ain't easy especially with suffecient goblins, fear and tricksy movement is annoying, but grab em by the balls and squeeze, he'll give in!

Other things to be mind full of:

HE Spears - the bloody cheating what's-its get to fight 2 ranks deep on a charge, 3 ranks deep when being charged. NEVER CHARGE their front flank on any unit wielding spears. Stoopid elvish training :angry:


If you gonna take gobs, take only night gobs. them nets will do wonders against his units. silly str 3 elvies can't do as well when netted.


staff of sneaky stealin is almost a must against them. strip them of their magic as often as possible. very few lists for HE don't have a mage of some sorts.

while fighting in three ranks with ASF is annoying, it´s not really that scary against T4 4+ AS Orcs. I once charde a ranked unit of spearmen, took 14 hits and one wound :D
I would fear the special stuff he can field, and his superior movement. Apart from shooting and magic, our best chance is to rely on numbers and make him pay for having oh so expensive infantry units...

I must say I really hate fighting the panzies, though, they´re not an easy matchup...

hi everyone i play orcs since 2006 (im a noob on this) and one of my friends have a HE army and he usually put in a phoenix guard a battle standard bearer with a banner which gives his combat resolution an extra D6, how could i defeat this kind of unit, my army have almost everything, so i'll pleased of reading your advices.

P.S: sorry for my poor english, i'm from south america.
P.S 2: the noble with the banner have barded horse, heavy armour and shield.

As far as the +d6 banner goes. Avoid it or kill the bsb. Killing the bsb involves challenges or nailing him with Nibblas ring. Another way is to bait him into a unit with a fanatic slingshot trap making him end his charge on top of the fanatics. An then everyone beats upon his bsb. Outnumbering the fairies is paramount to winning.

you hit em with the hardest u got
bring forth ur general and kill that squisy elf in a challenge.
U might loose one round of combat, but with high numbers and the overkill your warboss should have from butchering the unit champion u will maybe loose by a piont or two since they wont inflict many casualties.
Then next round bye bye Standard bearer with nasty banner.
Then break him!!
Also NIbbla`s is good but the unit might carry a Banner of Arcane Protection, then Nibbla is no good.
And guard you flanks while the combat goes on!!!

Best solution is to feed it something and try to take on something else. No magic will punch through HE defense, no BSB stupid enough to take a challenge from a general or character.

trolls with a good equiped character go a long way
I've even slaughtered 15asf black guard with lord in them & cauldron backing them up.
chariots are nice too (but remember the fear elves )
& fanatics are nice if he doesn't use eagles

btw, you need to challenge if he has a champ, and in order to kill the bsb with your boss you need at least a champ or other character to accept the challenge of his PG champ, so your boss is free to kill the bsb.

Honestly I have no fixed strategy for beating them, I always fear the match up even though the best a high elf player ever got against me in a fair fight was a draw, (and I do play them frequently) - somehow I'm just blessed I guess that my opponent doesn't kill enough with his asf :P
My rule of thumb however, is kill all his ranged first, after that you have not that much to worry about.(besides the dragon)

-edit, cool this thread dates bakc from 2007 ,- anyways the theoryhammer is pretty corect.

Are we talking 8th Ed now? I think flanking a big unit of HE spears will be great! They will only get one rank attack to the side. If we go with a large enough unit, we will break their ranks. Going with Orcs with 2 chukkas or some-such in the flank will get you enough CR to counter the banner. The unit itself will stop their ranks.

Chariots and/or Snotling Pump Wagons will also help. Make sure you have more ranks and you can break 'em. Night Goblins with nets and spears will be great! You make them S2 and you get a lot of attacks back. Oh, you will get killed some, but if you take a big unit, it's OK. You get to attack back after your loses are there.