Title: The Hook Strategy - Everything You Need To Know!
Description: 26.01 - Tournament report (1000p)
Brog Ironfang - October 25, 2007 08:35 PM (GMT)
I have idea for this thread for quite a while now. Base of it is that I have played this game for 6 years and I still loose at beginners tournaments :blink: . Since I'm quite smart otherwise :ph43r: I come to conclusion that I simply do something wrong. Then I realised that probably I'm not the only one with such a problem so maybe such a thread can be of use.
I have read hundreds of lists and pages of tactical articles but I fail anyhow. so I ask you guys (knowing you play better than me as otherwise it would require a miracle I must say) what to do to win. I don't want to win every game (well it would be nice but I am realist) but I want to stand a chance against people who play as long as I do. Honestly I don't even know what question to as - but i feel I really need some help...
thanks a lot ladz :)
Obfuscate - October 25, 2007 10:37 PM (GMT)
Talk us through a typical gameplan for you. That might help to guage whats missing.
greenskinpower - October 25, 2007 11:20 PM (GMT)
Taking a look at your army list would help too...
One thing I suggest is to make sure you really pay attention to victory points at the end of the game, alot of times realizing table quarters and what units you can get half VP for and what of your units are about to (and hopefully run them out of harms way) can swing the battle. Another thing is pay attention to banners. fleeing and getting run down is better then getting beaten in combat 9 times out of 10 caue it saves the banner.
Also what types of armies and stuff give you trouble will help as well
Gashbad Beergut - October 26, 2007 09:02 AM (GMT)
I've been thinking about this kind of thing for a while. I believe there's a need for discussion on general Warhammer strategy. It's easy to talk about specific units, army lists, this unit vs. that unit, etc., but it seems to me there isn't a real language to discuss general Warhammer strategy, with a few exceptions.
I've been trying to work on a way around this, but the best I've come up with so far are a loose list of ways people can play Warhammer. If this helps identify what kind of player you are or want to be, I am glad. If it doesn't, hopefully someone can do better because I think there's a need for this type of discussion.
Warhammer Level 1:
THE ARMY LIST
Almost everyone starts playing Warhammer at this level. They design the most powerful army they can, and send it screaming at the enemy, assured of its success. Units are designed to be indestructible, or at least have massive damage potentials. Characters with lots of magic items, unbreakable units, units with huge combat bonuses, armor saves, etc.
Admittedly, I hate playing these types of players, but this style really does have its uses. First, for new players it cuts down on the number of variables. They only have to worry about a few super expensive units rather than many specialized units, and mostly these troops are designed to be effective in every situation. Second, they tend to be small, so new players can play and paint their armies quickly.
Even so, the game is designed so that these super-units are usually less cost-effective than multiple lesser units (usually...). But luck plays a big factor. Occasionally the super units will under perform and the game will be lost more or less automatically, and occasionally they will be unstoppable no matter how good the other player is (which helps keep the new player from becoming frustrated). But generally a more experienced player with a more balanced list will pick these types of players apart, and the Army List Player will develop into a more sophisticated player (though certainly some never do).
Warhammer Level 2:
THE BATTLE PLAN
I'm not entirely sure that this style of play is at all inferior to the next type, but it's what I evolved into next, so I'm listing it in this order. This type of player has a plan for his units, frequently drawn out on a little piece of paper. From game to game and opponent to opponent this battle plan will usually not vary. It's usually based on a pretty simple maneuver like attacking hard on one flank while holding back on another, or holding the center and working around both flanks.
This is a much more efficient style of play than relying on the army list, which usually has very straightforward movement like "everyone charge forward and attack" or "everyone stand still and shoot." It allows units to support eachother, and depending on how well it's set up it can account for the odd bit of bad luck or well-played maneuver by your opponent.
But by its nature it is a little inflexible, and will occasionally meet a bad match up, forcing at the very least a hastily reworked battle plan. And variables like terrain or scenarios can really play havok with such a style.
Nevertheless, the most consistent success I experienced was with this type of play, and it seems that frequently a solid strategy will defeat even extremely clever tactics. There definitely seems to be an advantage to knowing what your army strengths are and sticking to them no matter what.
Warhammer Level 3:
This is where I am right now. At the start of a battle, there is only a vague battle plan. As your opponent deploys units, you deploy units that are equipped to deal with his. As I've said before, I'm not sure this is a better way of playing than The Battle Plan style. You're more flexible, but it's a bit reactive as opposed to proactive. It takes a good knowledge of the opponent's army and probability to be able to work out which units will do well against others, and there can be a lot of tactical maneuvers as you deploy your weaker units to distract or damage his stronger ones.
This style of play feels more controlled and surgical, but a lot can go wrong with the dice. A pursuit move too far or a lucky insane courage can leave your scattered units very vulnerable. A Battle Plan Style, while occasionally having to deal with units that they are poorly matched up against, has a certain amount of redundancy in that there will usually be several units of the same function massed together so that if one fails another will succeed.
I'm going to keep pushing myself with this style of play, because it feels more complicated and takes more forethought, so in my mind it should produce better results. And perhaps as I improve at this method my results will improve, but right now it can be pretty mixed, though generally successful.
Warhammer Level 4:
I don't know what this level is like, because I'm not to it yet, but I can feel it out there. I get glimpses of it in battle reports from very successful players and it seems like there should be a way of playing better than what I'm doing right now. I strongly suspect it involves planning ahead several turns, and probably in way that takes in the whole army, or at least more than the small number of units I can handle in my mind.
It would be easy to say that you should do these things, but there is constantly some surprising element that crops up in a game that I feel I couldn't have planned for. An unexpected move by the enemy, a key unit being taken out in an unlucky set of dice rolls, a too high or low pursuit roll that puts a unit right where I didn't want them, etc. I don't know how to account for all these things so I usually only try to think about one turn ahead.
But I think some people can plan for these things, or at least have a method of setting up ways to deal with the unexpected as they go along while also positioning their army to its best effect. Or maybe I'm overthinking it and it's really just a well executed combination of Match-up and Battle Plan styles.
Anyway, that's my ramble. My advice would be to decide what style of play you are, and either try a different one or try to become better at the style you are at.
If you use Match-ups, think it out. What units do you have to deal with dangerous war machines, flying monsters, tough infantry, etc.? What types of units do your present units excel against? What sort of units need to be avoided and how can keep them away from you?
If you use a Battle Plan, try to think of a better one. If your flank attack keeps getting crushed, maybe it needs more troops. If your center gets over-run, maybe it should hold back instead of rushing forward.
And if, Gork help us, you are an Army List player, you could always try to find a better army list. My advice: something with a Steam Tank or a Bloodthirster.
But as I said before, this just a primitive attempt at talking about Warhammer in broader sense. There's a lot to this game, but sometimes we get bogged down in the particulars. Anyone's comments on this diatribe or how to win at Warhammer in general are always appreciated.
Brog Ironfang - October 26, 2007 09:07 AM (GMT)
EDIT at the beginning :)
Gashbad that was a really good read and I mean it ! - I have a question - do you think it is easier to play battleplan rather than match - up with orcs. Normally I would say that I try to start from the hardest one (this is what kind of man I am) but I learn that sometimes starting from easier fields is better. I think I tried to play matchups but maybe I really should try a battleplan - but how does a battleplan handles armies like WE that play differently than any other... is this a factor you need to have a separate battleplan for. Also I'm really patient - ande I want to aim high - you say it is natural to "evolve" from battleplaner to matchup (which I also think is better when you do it right) or is it better to start form the match up - fail at the beginning but learn and eventually get there...
the list might be a problem - for some reason I don't have my "style" of making them - I always take what I feel like and I really struggle when it comes to making a list with a good sense... I will dig threw my PC and post some of my lists later on :)
I think I have problem with variety. I used to play WE at the beginning (when driads had 2 wounds each and all...) and I won or was in first third at each freaking tournament I was into. Then I decided I need an army that allow me to develop in painting a bit more and switched to orcs - it was something like 4 years ago and since then it seems I can't play at all! I could say - oh well orcs aren't for me and switch back but I don't want to...
As for my typical game it looks like this - I read opponent list (this is common in Poland for some reason) and try to decide what can I do about things I'm most worried about. I try to see spots where it is better for me to fight (like a flank covered by forest or so) and then I deploy - usually when I finish I have to adjust the "plan" somehow as things usually change a little and after 2-3 turns usually it turns out that ... something went wrong - all the plans are good but somehow they don't work very often. I read several tactic articles and tried to use those too and I failed... I start to think that maybe army composition is my problem but if I post a list usually I get like 1-3 replies that say it's ok so...
*************************** LIST 1 (2000) *******************************
Black Orc Big Boss @ 129 Pts
General; Choppa; Heavy Armour
Horn of Ugrok 
Goblin Big Boss @ 112 Pts
Light Armour; Battle Standard
Rowdy Grott's Big Red Raggedy Banner 
Goblin Shaman @ 135 Pts
Magic Level 2; Little Waagh
Nibbla's Itty Ring 
Dispel Scroll 
Goblin Shaman @ 115 Pts
Magic Level 2; Little Waagh
Dispel Scroll 
24 Orc Boyz @ 174 Pts
Choppa; Light Armour; Shield; Standard; Musician; Orc Boss @  Pts
23 Night Goblins @ 141 Pts
Netters; Shield; Standard; Musician
1 Fanatic @  Pts
24 Night Goblins @ 144 Pts
Netters; Shield; Standard; Musician
1 Fanatic @  Pts
24 Night Goblins @ 144 Pts
Netters; Shield; Standard; Musician
1 Fanatic @  Pts
21 Night Goblins @ 117 Pts
2 Fanatic @  Pts
5 Goblin Spider Riders @ 71 Pts
Spear; Shield; Musician
5 Goblin Spider Riders @ 71 Pts
Spear; Shield; Musician
5 Goblin Wolf Riders @ 71 Pts
Spear; Light Armour; Musician
15 Squig Herd @ 90 Pts
6 Night Squig Herders
4 Trolls @ 160 Pts
7 Squig Hoppers @ 105 Pts
2 Spear Chukka @ 70 Pts
2 Spear Chukka @ 70 Pts
1 Doom Diver @ 80 Pts
Casting Pool: 6
Dispel Pool: 4
Models in Army: 186
Total Army Cost: 1999
*************************** LIST 2 (800) *******************************
Black Orc Big Boss @ 89 Pts
General; Choppa; Heavy Armour
19 Orc Boyz @ 144 Pts
Choppa; Light Armour; Shield; Standard; Musician; Boss
24 Night Goblins @ 144 Pts
Netters; Shield; Standard; Musician
10 Savage Boyz @ 85 Pts
Choppa; Warpaint; Musician
Squig Herd @ 60 Pts
4 Night Squig Herders
5 Goblin Spider Riders @ 71 Pts
Spear; Shield; Musician
5 Goblin Wolf Riders @ 71 Pts
Spear; Light Armour; Musician
5 Squig Hoppers @ 75 Pts
1 Wolf Chariot @ 60 Pts
3 Goblin Crew
Casting Pool: 2
Dispel Pool: 2
Models in Army: 81
Total Army Cost: 799
mohammadurk - October 26, 2007 11:01 AM (GMT)
First of all relax :)
You're playing O&G now, da best army in da Vorld! B)
By now I'm sure you 've realized that our army's Ld.... well... sux! Forget about sissy "Immune to Psychology" abilities and such. If anything is outside the 12" radius of your General's ld 9 will, sooner or later, run.
In your 2000p list I see too many low Ld units. They will not fit inside your General's Ld radius unless you deploy them in two lines which I don't recommend due to animosity.
You cannot trust items like "Horn" to mend those liabilities. "Rowdy's" is not very useful either.
I also see there a lack of clear orientation. You do not have strong CC units which can break the opponent, neither heavy magic/shooting. All you can do, iMo, is sit back and wait for the inevitable or run forth to face it sooner.
It's a cruel world out there filled with terrifying monsters , lethal warmachines and powerful wizards.
It's up to you to decide the way to break their neck under yor bootz! (mine is to max CC efficiency)
I play O&G and only O&G. I'm not the best player in the world but I'm sure one of the craziest. (I will go to UKGT without any shamans or Special Characters) B)
Nethrag - October 26, 2007 11:43 AM (GMT)
Hiya, saul (Warboss Kurgan) asked me to look in on this thread.
|I think your style of Wargaming would fit into the "missing" fourth category.|
which is high praise indeed now I've seen what the threads about.
As for background I don't tend to play with the usual obvious high powered races but I do try and make very effective lists within the fluff limits I set myself. Current armies are Tz beastmen, ogres and savage orcs for example. None of which are your standard tournament winning races but within that I'm not trying to pretend my lists are uber soft either.
In terms of battle plan you really should be aiming for a mix of all the above including things to minimise the times when your army decided it doesn't want to do what you tell it to. (Tz beastmen arguably even worse for this than greenskins as unruly and even lower leadership than orcs with out access to as much immune to psych stuff can really stuff your plans up, plus I play savage orcs so I know how it feels to have your units go off on one!)
Within your army list you need to have units that can deal with specific types of enemy units. e.g. in my beastmen list I have screamers and furies to deal with warmachines. Magic missiles to deal with fast cav/support units etc.
Have something that can destroy warmachines quickly, have something that can deal with knights, have something that can deal with enemy magic (either mage hunters or magic defence) etc.
Then when setting up your army you need to use a mixture of setting up your units in position to go after what you included them in your list to deal with, deploying so as to enforce the battle to be fought in the section of the board you want it to be fought in and to capatilise on any mistakes your opponent makes. The best/easiest way of doing this by far is to have multiple throw away units which you can deploy early without giving away where anything of value is going to go. (i.e. hounds / gnoblars / spider riders etc.)
Redundancy in an orc and goblin army is very important, as often you'll have units that wont do what you tell them to so another unit will have to do it instead. (i.e. take 2 units of squig hoppers instead of one - then when your first unit overbounces and ends up sticking out of the terrain you were trying to hide in you've still got the other in position to get to his missile troops.
When deploying you also need to keep units that were included in the list in the first place to support other units to be close enough to actually support those units!
e.g. No point putting my hounds out on a far flank miles away from the enemy if they were supposed to be screening my chariots from shooting.
All of this falls into a mix of the first three categories I guess. In terms of the fourth mystery category it really does simply come down to a mixture of
1) knowing exactly what all of your and, sometimes more importantly, your enemies units are capable of (this becomes much easier with open lists if you play with them).
2) Knowing the odds of any particular move happenning and then how serious it would be to the game if it worked.
3) Moving supporting units so that even if a move that was 80% likely to work fails then it doesn't lose you the game.
Prime example of this was on wednesday - my unit of 2 leadbelchers with +1S spell on them charged into the flank of 2 nurgle minotaurs with GWs. I expect to do about 2 wounds and have a flank so expect to win the combat by 1 or 2 and hopefully see them off. However if I don't manage to break them his herd will then have a flank charge on my leadbelchers, not such a big deal in itself but the overrun from that could potentiall put him into a flank of one of my other main ogre units which wouldn't be good. So I move up a unit of gnoblars to catch any potential overrun before it gets to my ogres. It's this type of planning for the worst a turn or so in advance in every scenario that can save games when dice go against you. (My leadbelchers did infact whiff against the minos and only won thanks to their musician but the minos held, if the gnoblars hadn't been there my line would have collapsed - instead the combat herd (2 characters) gets diverted away into my 40 point gnoblars.
Sorry about the rambling nature of this, I'll try and clean it up a bit later and add some more orc specific stuff.
Hope it helps a bit
staks - October 26, 2007 01:41 PM (GMT)
Warhammer is won in denying your opponent the ability to move their units where they want to move and by sacrificing cheap units to gain expensive units from your opponent. Once you understand how to do this winning is easy against average opponents, yet still difficult against people of your own skill level or above.
For example i find fast cav units the best units in the game and O&G have access to some of the best of them. Fast cav are great bait / flee units, so position them so that if the enemy were to charge them, by fleeing you would send them off on a sharp angle exposing their flank to one of your heavy units the following turn. This is basic warhammer tactics yet so many players don't do it efficiently. Fast cav are also exceptionaly good at blocking off advancing units. For example in a game i player last week my opponent couldn't advance his kroxigors because my wolf riders have him wedged between my unit and a forest. His only option was to charge the wolf riders but by doing so he would have exposed his flank to a unit of 30 night goblins should my wolf riders decide to flee. This is a perfect example of how a 70 point unit can nullify a 230 point unit from the game.
Most beginner players look at fast cav as units designed to destroy enemy archers and war machines and while they can do this, the quicker you learn their real strengths the better you will become.
Forget trying to write a list of rock units to beat your opponents scissor units. Your opponent will be trying to do the same thing. Your opponent will probably have a beginners game plan by trying to match up the units he believe will beat yours, but by restricting his movement with fast cav or redirecting them his game plan goes out the window. People get impatient and eventually the fast cav running rings around his units will annoy them to the point they commit themselves to charging them which is where the game is won.
Don't be afraid to lose games by trying new things in an attempt to get better. Make it your goal next game to have enemy units facing the left and right edges on the board regardless of how you go about doing it. The better you get at exposing their flanks to your main line the quicker you will start winning.
Nethrag - October 26, 2007 01:43 PM (GMT)
Other random things.
1) Play to your armies strengths.
i.e. My savage orc units are there to hit things, not win by combat res so add choppa for them. My dwarves are the opposite so hand weapon and shield for them.
My savage orcs need the charge against a lot of things to be able to win (as they have no decent armour) so things like a well timed waaagh can win the game for me, or something like the waaagh banner on some savage orc boar boyz.
2) Plan for it's weaknesses. Negate psych as much as possible, have plans for screening your expensive troops from missile fire or taking the enemies out asap. etc.
3) Warhammer is generally won in the movement phase. Units like squig hoppers which can break some of the normal rules for movement/charging are priceless, as are small diverting units which can bait / redirect the enemies strong units. (fast cav/pump wagons)
|but how does a battleplan handles armies like WE that play differently than any other... is this a factor you need to have a separate battleplan for. Also I'm really patient - ande I want to aim high - you say it is natural to "evolve" from battleplaner to matchup (which I also think is better when you do it right) or is it better to start form the match up - fail at the beginning but learn and eventually get there...|
Yes seperate battle plans are needed which is why you really need to do a mixture of both "battle plan" and "match up" strategies if you want to win consistently against whatever your playing.
The standard battleplan with say, my ogres, is to get into combat asap, let the tyrant with his tenderiser go to work on whatever the nastiest thing is in the opposition army and try and use the little units of leadbelchers to flank as much as possible while the gorgers turn up behind the enemy and either pin him in place or deal with warmachines.
Now if this is against WE's like in your example it needs to be slightly modified.
You deploy away from the forests as much as possible so his advantage there is gone, you deploy to minimise shooting on your key units, you look to see if he has a treeman or a treeman ancient (or both) as the tenderiser can deal with the treeman but not the ancient (annoyance of netlings) so you send the tyrant at the tree and the gnoblars (within generals Ld range) at the ancient. That's where knowing your enemy obviously comes in to play.
However on wednesday I was playing against Beastmen, who I could actually afford to sit back and make him come to me with (3 butchers dishing out panic spells can make a mess of beastmen) so the standard plan of get into combat asap didn't apply as that was what my opponent wanted.
The thing is that every plan can/should only be formed once you see your opponents army. What is he relying on to win him the game, what are the main threats to your army, can you kill them? If not, how can you delay them while you deal with the rest of it. The real main thing that puts some people over the top good is thinking 2+ turns ahead everywhere on the board. I feel I'm at the stage where I can confidently say what'll happen in a battle for approaching that, but there are people out there who do it even further ahead and ultimately they'll beat me.
You've also go to remember what your playing with. O&G are a decent army with some really nice units and can be played with and won with consistently against your standard opposition. But if your constantly finding yourself up against maxed out tournement lists then sometimes you just don't have the tools for the job unless you write a list to play them. (e.g. it doesn't matter if I'm a slightly better player than my opponent if he has a forest spirit list with ancient another tree, dryad spam and decent magic defence if I'm playing with my standard ogres. He can sacrifice a few units of dryads in charge me or be charged type situations and then multiple charge afterwards. He can even just stick his ancient infront of any of my units and say bring it on and unless I get lucky he'll hold and then counter charge. Sometimes there's not a lot you can do except chalk it up to experience and resist joining the dark side. :D
Groznit Goregut - October 26, 2007 04:49 PM (GMT)
I think there is a lot of great advice, but a lot of it is for higher up players. The original question dealt with losing at the beginer's events consistantly. So, how can someone begin to play in a cohesive method and win games? I think that a lot of the previous advice is great, but it might be for someone further along.
I think the first place to start is to come up with what type of army you want to play with. You always hear about things like the dwarven gunline, the skaven shooty army of death, many small unit armies, etc. Just think of what type of armies we have as OnG. We actually have a lot of different types of armies. What type do you want to play? You can easily go with a lot of war machines and magic and hang back to make the enemy come to you. I want an infantry based list and I want to swarm my opponents. What about the all mounted list? You could go with an elite fighting army. There are concept armies, as well: An as many squigs as you can army; an all goblin army; all orc army; etc. Even an all-balanced list is a type. What type of list do you want to play?
After you pick a concept, you need to figure out how you are going to build an army with it. Is it a strategy choice, such as sit back and kill things from afar? If so, then you want as many war machines and magic as you can get. You probably don't want to have a large number of units as these will just get in the way of your war machines, but you have to have enough to protect them. Or if you pick an all (or mostly) infantry army, you need to think about how you plan on attacking. An example might be to have some fast cav or snotlings to go in the front to act as diverters. They can take the charges and flee at an angle to set up the enemy units to flank charges. Maybe you say you want mostly goblin infantry units and a large number of chariots to support them? You will want to pick a strategy of play that you like to play with. Are you aggressive? Do you like to be sneaky? Are fanatics your style? Do you love to outflank?
Lastly, you need to fine-tune your list. This step usually takes a long time and may never stop. You need to figure out the best way to accomplish the style that you want. This is where you need to think about what you are going to face and how to oppose it. There might be a number of guys at the store that always have really large monsters in their armies and you need to come up with a way to defeat them. Perhaps spear chukkas? Or, you don't want any war machines, how about squig hoppers/herders? Or even a unit of bowmen to shoot at large monsters? At this point, it's great if you can have a number of things to take on a number of situations. For example, the suicide goblin with one hit wunder and tricksy trinket can be used to kill enemy characters, enemy chariots (like the black coach), or even a small unit of knights (if he gets the charge). Spells can be useful against a number of enemies, especially the blasting kind. You can kill knights, large monsters, or elite units this way. Try to think of what has killed you in the past and how your new list will counter it. What will stop flankers from coming in? How will you deal with miners or beast herds coming in? What happens when you face an enemy gunline?
After you have played a few games with a particular list, don't despair and give up (if it didn't work out), but try to work out the kinks in the list. Perhaps the trolls just don't work when you have a night goblin general b/c of the low leadership? Maybe there are just too many shooty armies in your local club and that giant just gets killed in turn 1. What if you gave those orcs two choppas instead of the shield? Is that large unit of black orcs doing anything? Do you want to keep them? Then how to protect them?
It's also good to try to think of teams for your army. Or, you can think of zones of control. How are you going to handle the flanks and the middle? I've found that a unit of wolf riders, a snotling pump wagon, and a nearby unit of squig hoppers can really hold down a flank. If the other two are being slow, the wolf riders can use their fast cav status to just run behind or to the side of an approaching enemy so that the slower items get a chance to charge in. How exactly do you use that single troll next to the general's unit? Do those snotlings in the front help out or get in the way? Stick out that unit of 'ard grotz to try to take a charge while your orc units are just on the edges trying to get a flank charge in.
I think the key is to pick out a strategy with the units you want. Otherwise you are just making a list of items you think are cool, but you don't know how to really use them. We have a wide variety of units and a wide variety of tricks you can use with each one. It's important to have a plan when going into a battle about what exactly you are going to do. Perhaps you should do one of those battles where you decide on the map ahead of time and then write your deployment down all at once. Then, each player just plops his army down according to his plans. It forces you to think about how you are going to approach the battlefield in teams as opposed to just reacting to what units he puts down.
Well, sorry if I have been rambling, but I hope it helps.
Brog Ironfang - October 26, 2007 10:58 PM (GMT)
I have never expected so much feedback - thanks guys :)
Well when it comes to style I think I'm an infantry attacking player. Usually I tend to have 3-5 foot troops units (orcs and goblins) with some back up (like fast cav, squig hoppers and chariot from time to time). I'm not the fan of magic so usually I take a Dispel dice BSB and a scroll caddy + some fighting guys. Honestly I think 2lv2 mages would be nice (as I think I simply like balance) but they tend to do next to anything. What I have problem with are things like flyers (not only dragons and big things but normal "flying units" as well) - something like a gyrocopter that lands behind your lines (and you go 4") while rest of his friends shoot you to death. Also big monsters are a threat.
If I would have to say what is my perfect strategy move I would say I'd rather have 2 gobbo units one on flank than big BO unit that simply reap everything apart. I would like to think about myself as a tactician but it seems that when I take more units some of them end up completely out of position and if I take stronger ones they got flanked and killed - hard thing...
The worst thing is I feel that I simply should ask about couple of things and play but I don't know what to ask about. So maybe I will do it like this:
I will think of an armylist for the next beginners tournament. They are played in 1000 point format and I think I will be able to attend for the next one (i hope they are only once a month and I cant go tomorrow :/) there are the "big" tournaments as well so it is quite possible that I will go for one as those as well. Ill try to post a list tomorrow with a description of what I think it should do :)
once more thanks for all the help !! :wub:
Brog Ironfang - October 27, 2007 07:45 AM (GMT)
Unfortunately I misjudged time - I need to leave my flat now so I will be able to post something tomorrow - just don't think I lost interest in this thread :)
and even once again - THANKS !!
Bidiot Dwarf Stomper - October 27, 2007 09:08 AM (GMT)
Thanks also from me. This is not only helping out Brog, but all of us.... :D
This is a great post all helpful and constructive. I've found that some of the tactics posts can turn into moans about how strong other armies are and how weak ours is.
Yet this post is not like that at all.
Thanks once again guys... :D
Obfuscate - October 27, 2007 09:26 PM (GMT)
Do you play a lot of 1000 point games? I find orcs dont tend to do too well at that points range.
Also, if flyers are your problem then you simply need to load up on Spear chukkas. I would take 4 and position them so that at least two will always get a shot at a gyro or dragon behind your lines.
orkfang - October 27, 2007 09:42 PM (GMT)
i will check with a friend of mine about this and ask him to write something... i have known him for about 6 years and in that time he has only lost one battle (and yes, he plays pretty much)
why is some people so much better than others at stuff like this? <_<
Brog Ironfang - October 28, 2007 08:57 PM (GMT)
OK I had some time and I did some thinking. From what I read here I decided to try a "battle plan" instead of "match up" style (it is simpler and the list is easier to make and I really struggle with making one).
BATTLE PLAN: Refused flank
For some reason I thought that strong center is something I failed to pull each time so it's time to change - also it looks more like a plan than strong center :P
I measured the table width on the floor (48") and field all the units I felt fit the plan well this is what I got:
The forces are:
:ph43r: 19 orcs with shields and command - obvious choice I think and the core of my force - they are more in the "middle" of my refused flank as they are stronger and it is possible they will have to fight 2 units at once
:ph43r: 30 NG nets - this is the second unit - they should fight the same fight as orcs but be on the flank of the enemy - (I hope) I need 30 because the need to have greater unit strength than orcs to set enemy fleeing on the side not towards it's deployment zone (then orcs can pursuit and hopefully they will hit the flank of the new enemy)
:ph43r: Squig hoppers - I picked 7 but I'm not sure if this is not too much for such a small game. They are on the far flank as usually there is a terrain there (they have no problem with it) and they hit hard - they role is to remove all the support units and fast cavalry my opponent have on his flank there as otherwise those units could divert my NG away from helping orcs
:ph43r: 5 Spiders - not sure if they fit the place I planned them to be but I feel hoppers alone are to unpredictable for the task I gave them + fast cavalry never hurts right?
:ph43r: Boar chariot - well I have special slots but not a lot of points so cheap chariot (compared to boar boyz which I also considered) looks like a good choice. I'm aware that this formation is weak in the center and other flank - I need fast elements in the center to counter all the light things that may come by but on the other hand I need power to inflict enough damage to hold big enemy unit at least for some time before orcs and NG can finish the first one and hopefully help out with the second one. Chariot (and trolls for the matter) speed and damage potential is the thing I think I need to fulfill this task.
:ph43r: Trolls - usually I take 3 but I think they will cost a lot and one is not scary enough (at least I feel so...) they do the same thing as chariot.
:ph43r: General is a black orc with heavy armor - nothing too fancy but really good point wise I think...
:ph43r: 2 chukkas - simply to kill heavy stuff and especially dreaded treeman! (They are not on the plan as their position strongly depends on terrain but I will field them on the other flank most of the time)
All of this cost 801 points so far - I don't know exactly what to do with those - maybe a mage for vital magic protection and some offence as well would be nice or some unit which is crucial to this formation and I simply havenít noticed this... simply put I need some help on how too use those.
HOW I PLAN TO PLAY:
Depending on the terrain I will choose one flank to fight and one to give away. Firstly knowing where my forces will be I will field chukkas - I hope that fielding them on the other side of the battlefield will show that I want to be there and my opponent will field something there. Then trolls and chariot go - and they are in the center they won't show my plan. After that spiders on the flank - people usually field fast cavalry on flanks so maybe this will go unnoticed - then hoppers which probably will give some thoughts to my opponent but I hope it will be to late for changes on his side lastly orcs (they are more in center so maybe he will think I will put my NG on the other side) and then NG - they will be so deployed so they can go as close to the flank as possible without interfering with any difficult terrain which usually is on the sides.
I hope my opponents line will be scattered - if so I will try to kill "my flank" while protecting the center with chariot and trolls (is this enough?) and then with a pursuit move I will "turn" my main forces 90 degrees towards the center (as NG on the flank have greater US than orcs) and deal with all that is there... I will always move my main forces in the way that allow my orcs to fight first "strong" enemy unit in front and goblins charge that unit on the flank - this will make beating it up pretty easy.
I'm a bit concerned about enemies that may have 3 strong units as this will mean orcs and NG are fighting one of those than overrunning into the second who was held by trolls and chariot but the third will be open for maneuver such as charging trolls flank... I hope I will use the "fight twice in one turn" rule but than I won't be able too pursuit the second unit with my orcs or NG which will leave the enemy unit free anyway. - This concern goes to "normal armies like chaos HE DE Empire and so... the other things will have a separate chapter here :)
This is the first time I make a "master plan" (usually I tended to match up which usually ended up pretty bad for me) and I have no real experience witch such this is the list of my concerns:
:unsure: Shooty armies: usually they spread quite thin on their table edge which means my main forces will end up fighting a small part of my enemy army while the other part will reap me apart
:unsure: Multiple small unit armies - I have basically one flank exposed and with MSU it is easy to deal with a chariot and 2 trolls and then I'm in big troubles - WE goes here and I fear them really bad
:unsure: Cavalry armies - they can deal with trolls and chariot as well and then I will have problem as well....
:unsure: Basically this is a nice setup against infantry but I'm not so sure if this can handle other army types and if so - how to do it...
Well this is all I came up with - as you can see there are more questions than anything else. I would really appreciate your help - and for my part (as part of a reward) If we go with it further I will compile that to a big article (with all the credits of course) that can be beneficial for more people - also I will write battle reports from all my battles (as they will be important to show what went wrong) and such things ...
And what is most important - really and I mean it - thanks guys - this was really helpful so far and I learned much - I hope it will continue I really do :)
Groznit Goregut - October 29, 2007 03:00 PM (GMT)
I think it's a good plan and one that has merit. You can always try it like it is or I can give some suggestions on a few changes. I'm not garunteeing that mine are better, but some food for thought.
One thing you said is that you only have two strong units and you worry about facing three of the enemies. Well, don't forget your squig hoppers! Those guys will chew through anything, if they get the charge off. I would say that you have three units, if one is unreliable.
As for those extra points, you might want to put a few more orcs in, even just a couple. With 20, you have maximium rank bonus, but just barely. If you take a couple of hits from ranged attack, then you won't have that full bonus. Even just adding in two more orcs gives room for a couple of casualties, but another rank will go a long way. All depends on your points.
Another idea you can go with is having your spider riders go on the opposite flank. It's also possible to add another unit of spider riders, as well. The idea is for war machine protection and also just to have a fast cav unit on your other flank. These guys can hold up an enemy fast cav or other unit for a couple of turns and that might be enough to mess with them. If you leave your other flank open, the enemy fast cav can charge straight for your war machines. If you have a fast cav unit to block, flee, or even run around and threaten flank charges, you have a 70 pt unit (or so) that can really hold them off on one side. You can also start by putting them down as your 1st or 2nd unit to help throw the other side off.
When it comes to fearing shooty armies, I wouldn't worry too much. They will shoot you all day long, but on a refused flank, you will hopefully be out of range for half their force, which is great!
You might be alright against MSU armies, as well, especially if the enemy puts a good number of units on the other flank or in the middle. That way, instead of facing MSU's, you are just facing SU's.
There is another school of thought about what you put in the middle. You could always put your night goblins on the edge or your battle line, facing the middle. You then can put a few fanatics into the unit. This way, when people start approaching your flank, you launch the fanatics out into the middle of the field and hopefully far away from your battleline. I'm sure that your opponent will have some units in the middle and trying to move through the middle to get around your flank. The fanatics should swirl around for a bit and not have terrain in the middle of the table. This might tie up their center while you hit their flank. It might not work and has some weakeness, but it's a thought. You could always put your trolls and then your night goblins. Just don't send the fanatics through the trolls.
Well, I think you have a great plan and I think it has a lot of merit. I just wanted to give a few suggestions and offer some alternatives. You might want to get some sort of magic defense, but perhaps not? Some people frown on scroll caddies, especially at the lower levels. some people say it's vital. Your choice. If you are worried about points, you can get rid of the boar chariot and put a goblin shaman in a wolf chariot. Not as tough, but you get a scroll caddy that usually uses his scrolls up by the time he hits the enemy battle line (and isn't worth much then).
Mostyn - October 29, 2007 05:17 PM (GMT)
Having written this up now I come to post I note some of the points have been covered in the previous post, but hey, you can never have too much to read so Iíll post the whole lot anyway. (sorry)
Firstly Thanks for going to the trouble of putting your plan print. I think the plan is OK but for what itís worth (And bear in mind Iíve not, as yet, played a single game with O&G (only having painted 10 of the little blighters) but Iíve played a fair bit with other races so) I think there are a couple of flaws in it:
A Battle plan is fine however I donít feel a refused flank should be your ďdefaultĒ for a number of reasons (and you have my apologies as I imagine you know most of this already):
a. Itís a specialist tactic that, whilst well suited to some situations is certainly not applicable, or advisable in all (youíre wasting your time with this against a fast moving mounted army as you pointed out) as you immediately surrender the advantage in contested table quarters to the enemy and offer a flank to be rolled-up.
b. The refused flank is generally best used by an elite army to gain parity in numbers over a section of the battlefield. Further to this itís suited to either slow moving defensive forces with sufficient fire power to force the enemy to close on their terms (and who potentially have access to unbreakable troops to anchor the line) or by a mobile force which can play havoc with the engaged flank before the rest of enemy can arrive to even things out. In both of these cases you will generally need a unit or two to slow up the enemy advance on the unengaged (refused) flank.
c. Orcs and goblins are designed around a strong/horde infantry line and as such are probably not the best army with which to refuse flanks if youíre playing them in the classic set-up, which I think you are with your army list. (This is not to say it canít be done of course).
Therefore I would suggest a refused flank should be an option to be used when the opponent or circumstance dictate. I think with this set up you may struggle to remove the weighted flank before your troll and battle line are taken down one by one from the other end:
You may well have the numerical advantage (or at least parity) so by refusing a flank you run the risk of a packed side where your units may well get into each otherís way (not to mention the fanatics).
You do not have the firepower, magical or otherwise, to sit back and wait for the enemy to come to you. Therefore you will need to be the aggressor on the chosen flank however I believe you lack the require combination of speed and punch to achieve this before reinforcements arrive. Specifically the big units are fairly slow moving so will take about three turns to cover the 24Ē to the enemy line, (assuming they donít advance). In this time, even a ranked up infantry unit can cover the distance from the far table edge to threaten your flank. This assumes your opponent has been foolish enough to put an infantry unit all the way out there in the first place.
Secondly, of the fast units you do have (Spiders riders and Chariot) youíve put the potentially dangerous line breaker (the chariot) in the fast cavalry role and the fast cavalry in the position where your line breaker needs to be. The spider riders will work well in conjunction with the chariot, if you wish, but shouldnít be doing the charging alone and in this set up theyíll have to wait for the rest of you troops to catch up which will loose you the time/turn advantage you had by refusing the flank in the first place. The chariot conversely, whilst more threatening, is not well suited to the march-blocking function it needs to do on the refused flank.
Finally the fanatics in the NG unit are essentially a defensive/diversionary weapon and by placing them so near the flank you wish to engage you run the risk of them disrupting your own attack (as the main action should be ahead of the NG). A problem with an O&G army is you have no good units to anchor your line in a refused flank short of impassable terrain. I can see why youíve put the trolls out there as fear causers but I think the night goblins (and associated fanatics) will fulfil this role more effectively as you can push out the fanatics into areas you wish to deny the enemy rather than into the flank youíre hoping to destroy.
To me it looks like youíre set up for a strong centre only with your whole army squashed into one half of the board. So I guess the question you should ask yourself is ďwhat do I aim to achieve by refusing a flank?Ē and from this aim design your army and set-up. If you have no specific aim then I generally would say donít do it as personally I think a strong centre, for example, will stand up to more eventualities than a refused flank.
Thatís not to say itís all bad by any means and Iím sure you could win from this position but you might like to consider (without going into too much detail):
Use the spare points to add in another unit of fast cavalry (maybe those awesome snow boarding goblins). These should go on the refused flank with the sole purpose of march-blocking.
Swap the NG and trolls around and use the trolls for what theyíre best at, causing fear tests and supporting charges (hopefully with your chariot or spiders in the flank).
Move the chariot to the non-refused flank so that, along with the spider riders, it should be able to break the line. Maybe even add a goblin hero to the spider riders, or increase their number or make them wolf riders to give them a bit more punch (and if you do this, at this points level, a standard might not be total crazy although it does go against the number one rule of fast cavalry so I may be shot for suggesting this).
Sorry for the length of this and of course itís very easy for me to sit here and criticise someone who has had the nerve to put their plans up for all to see (which you wonít ever catch me doing Ė spineless wimp that I am!). I just hope some of it, at least, is useful. (Iíll go back to the painting and hobby section now).
Brog Ironfang - October 29, 2007 11:45 PM (GMT)
Honestly I chose "refused flank" as strong center looks quite straight forward tactic and I don't consider this a tactic at all as you simply try to charge what is in front of you and hopefully add a flank charge if able...
And I'm afraid you are right - O&G aren't design for refused flank - maybe if I had more shooting that would be possible but I lack slots (rare/special) to add another machine and shaman is somehow risky (only 2 spells can get pretty random).
Is there something else than castle / refused flank / strong center ? I ask because I would really like to try something else than strong center (to have at least some taste of using "strategy") but I can't figure out anything else...
I understand strong center would mean - take 2-3 fighting blocks in the center and 2 fast cavalry units + hoppers on flank and you are ready to go... I have so many concerns about this setup as I used it before (well I haven't design anything special from strategy point of view but I semi did try to use that) and my results got me to start this thread so I kind of search for anything else...
I will try to think about something else and I write it up tomorrow :)
Groznit Goregut - October 30, 2007 02:53 PM (GMT)
Well, there are nuances to charging down the middle that you can still use. I learned this the hard way after simply charging into a few elite dwarf units and had my entire battle line retreating at the end of the turn!
One thing you could do is to have your fast cav go in front of your battle line. Get them in front of the enemy battle line and taunt them to charge you. It's all a setup. You flee with 3d6 flee range and one of their units gets pulled out of formation! If you time it right, your main battle line will be able to charge into just one unit and team up to crush it. It's best if your fast cav can be tilted to the side, so when they flee, they lure the enemy's flank to the front of your battle line. That's something that shouldn't be too terribly hard to arrange, but rather clever way to get one of their units to commit suicide for you.
Brog Ironfang - October 30, 2007 05:33 PM (GMT)
But usually that "lured" unit will only fail charge and most of the time that mean only 4-5" forward - not too separate I would say! Also anyone who knows the basic of warhammer would declare the charge and then move other troops so when the unit fails charge it will still be in line with others...
Anyway I found another battle plan that might work (but I have no idea how!)
BATTLE PLAN: Checks formation
I read several articles on this forum where people really advertise this formation - I have NEVER understand the "power" of it as it seems to have only downsides or at max really random factors from my point of view.
This is how the set up I've made looks like:
Idea is - someone charges goblins (60 point unit with muso only) and then he get charged in flank by orcs which are behind - if he breaks NG they flee threw something that won't panic (they generally don't cause panic as they are surrounded by snots/troll/orcs) and then if enemy don't pursuit he gets orcs to the flank and if he does he eighter roll too low or stop at something (snots/troll) behind NG and gets orcs to the flank anyway. The list here is not so important as I don't understand this tactic at all really. What you can see on the diagram is a full 1000 list (to get the scale)
here are the things I simply don't get:
:unsure: First of all If I want to charge the enemy flank assuming he is so wide as my NG (best case) I have to be equally away from their front and side - what i mean is - If I will be 3" behind them I need to be at least 3" from their side (otherwise I will be in the front charging zone of the enemy and obviously the tactic is useless then). If I will be 4 deep and 4 away I will be in charge range true but imagine how much space this setup needs - you would fit 2 chariots between those units! and since orcs usually field a lot of troops this is getting to be the problem!
:unsure: Also 4" (even without consiedering the space problem) isn't really that great especially that there is so much space between front units so it is easy to charge the orc unit in the start and as so this is nothing else but a fancy "straight line forward" thing.
:unsure: But hey - there is not a single army that Have one unit - I would charge the NG and move the second unit really near the first one protecting it's flank - goblins will be to far away to flank charge probably and orcs can't charge the first unit flank as the second unit is in the way. This problem disappear when you put your orcs unit only 2" deep and 2" side as the goblins on the other side see the "second" unit but they will get charged as well (and even if not 2" deep make that almost a "straight line")
:unsure: So I've made the list and drawn the set up but I don't see how this should work - where am I wrong?
I don't think I can come out with anything else other than "strong center variant" I don't mean this is wrong (I mean the variant) but is there any other way you can play a normal infantry O&G list ?
help me out please...
Gashbad Beergut - October 30, 2007 10:58 PM (GMT)
I'm glad we've gotten into the nitty gritty of how to run an army. I wasn't sure how to transition.
I, personally, have had great success with a form of refused flank with Orcs and Goblins, and the strong center approach has been more difficult for me. As for checkerboarding, I've largely given up on it. It takes extremely careful positioning, Orc & Goblin unreliability plays havok with it, and I feel it gives most of the initiative to the enemy. I know some have had success with it, but it just plays too "fiddly" and too much can go wrong with the dice for my tastes.
But back to the refused flank strategy. I use a variation called the oblique line. The name is more visual than important right now, but here's the idea: You have a pile of fast, line-breaker type units on one flank, some solid support int the middle, and things to keep the enemy off your back on the other flank. In battle your strong flank sweeps forward, smashing apart the enemy. By the time the center arrives, your enemy should have no support on one flank and may even have to face your victorious units swinging around to attack them in the side or rear. Meanwhile your other flank sort of dithers around, getting in the enemy's way and just tying his other flank up. It sort of resembles a big hook punch running down the table.
The good news is that it's a pretty easy strategy to use once you get the hang of it. The bad news is that the army you set up above is not much of an oblique line, or even as far as I can tell a refused flank, but we'll get to that.
The first thing you need in an oblique line is your line breaker units. They need to be fast, because if they are too slow your opponent will overrun your weak side and possibly your center before they can really do their stuff. And most importantly they need to be able to crush a decent unit in a head on fight. There also needs to be a few of them in case one doesn't succeed. This is the hardest part for Orcs & Goblins, and right now your list lacks a unit like this.
At 2000 points I used to run a BIG unit of 14 Boarboyz with an Orc Big Boss Battle Standard Bearer. Of course, this was before the nasty Boarboy point increase. You can get by with less Boarboyz (especially with the bonus combat resolution from the Battle Standard now), but then you are more vulnerable to missile casualties.
At 1000 points your choices are limited. I think a Giant would fit the bill, as would a big unit of Wolf Riders with shields with a competent Big Boss attached. A unit of Ogres could work, too, and Chariots make for good additions. Whatever you pick accept that you are going to spend a lot of points on this group, so don't get sticker shock. This is the group that is going to do the majority of your fighting so spend the cash.
The next part will be the stuff to hold the center. That's all they have to do: Hold. They don't NEED to break through the enemy (though it doesn't hurt), they just need to keep the enemy in place while the strong flank goes and wins the game. Orc Boyz are great for this. Cheap, tough and plentiful. I also like to keep the general around here. Although his combat power is great, his leadership is more important.
The last and least part is the opposite flank. This should be made up of garbage, which means Goblins. The requirements for this flank is that the units be very cheap. They are there to die... but they are to take as much time in doing it as possible. You're trying to delay the enemy's units on this flank as much as possible. If it happens to be your opponent's best units, then that's is best. If you can inflict a little damage on them as you go then that's just icing on the cake. Cheap Night Goblins with a single fanatic are my unit of choice. If you've got the special slots to spare small Squig Herds work great too, as do little units of fast cavalry to march block or redirect powerful units away from the action. War machines are not bad either. It actually takes a bit of effort to remove them, and if your opponent wants to send a 200 point unit of Knights to get rid of a 35 point Spear Chukka, who are we to argue?
As I've said before, I like this strategy. Every unit has a job, and it's pretty practical and interconnected. There are a lot of ins and outs to deal with in practice, especially if the opponent sets up his best units across from your best units. Be ready to flee and counterattack with something else if a scary unit is bearing down on you. That's why you have several units of the same type in one place. Anyway, I hope this helps. Good luck with whatever strategy you choose.
Brog Ironfang - October 31, 2007 09:32 AM (GMT)
Gashbad - this is AWSOME ! I love the idea and it doesn't look impossible. I will do something with a plan today (like before :) ) Just one thing - how does the "fast" element deal with the terrain that is usually on the flanks ?
Once again thanks - and on my way to arrange stuff :)
Warlord Ghazak Gazhkull - October 31, 2007 12:14 PM (GMT)
Very good write up Gashbad and I have to agree with every single point. Now the checker board tactic is also good but it was better in 6ed since you had then quell annimosity within 6", so you could keep the ladz in place, now it is a lot harder since the quell annimosity rule has changed so I should say that this tactic isn't good enough anymore.
WarbossKurgan - October 31, 2007 12:44 PM (GMT)
Wow, this thread is so awesome! It has to be my favourite thread on Da 'Path by miles! :yarr!: :yarr!: :yarr!:
Gashbad - I'm going to try the "Hook Punch!"
Brog - Luring units: The cheap unit that you use as a lure has to set up at an angle from the victim unit. When they charge they will move towards the lure unit, not straight forwards, so they will expose a flank to your other units.
Checkerboard - Relies too much on the NG units holding when charged, so the Orcs can only charge the flanks of their attackers. But Like you said - no enemy will only have one unit, so the chances are the Orcs will get flank-charged too.
Groznit Goregut - October 31, 2007 01:47 PM (GMT)
I thought the checker board worked better with the 'ard grotz, as they had the 4+ armor save?
Anyways, I agree that the "oblique line" or "hook punch" is a good tactic. I used it in a battle against a witch elf army to good effect. I had a few war machines and NG archers in the middle to sucker them in. Some wolf riders and a chariot guarded one flank while two units of boar boyz and a warlord on wyvern moved around the other flank. There WAS a lot of terrain to swing through to the main units. I took a lot of magic and missle fire when I did swing clear of that terrain, but the few boyz that made it to the main unit of crossbowmen and two casters trashed the unit.
As for what units to put on the "fast hook" side, I would recommend wolf riders with shields and a hero (the riders are cheap). I've been a bit surprised by them lately. I would also recommend a wolf chariot over a boar chariot (for once) since they have the greater movement and charge range. I love boar boyz, even with the point increase. Savage boar boyz are good, as well. They will make minze meat of the enemy. I don't know if they will get side tracked as much if you have a whole line rushing forward and trying to charge. Their armor isn't as good, but they aren't fearing anything.
Brog Ironfang - October 31, 2007 02:47 PM (GMT)
OK I understand the luring thing but with 4" movement they won't really expose flank - the other units will move a bit and even if there would be a possibility to charge enemy flank other unit will be in the way!
I did some thinking again and adopted another plan
BATTLE PLAN: The Hook (I love this name :) )
Gashbad described this before but I will do it again here to make things clear and check if I understand everything correctly.
(after first movement assuming everything went dead ahead)
Black Orc Big Boss - general - you know the "big guy"
Goblin Big boss with Matrog's on wolf - he will ride with big wolf unit to add punch there and a bit of Ld as well
20 Orcs with shields - a center unit - they have to surrive the fight long enough for the flanking force to help them out
19 Orcs with shield - as Before but with general
14 wolf riders - crucial unit to the plan - they have to ride fast and break threw one of the flanks then turn around and help orcs deal with other stuff
wolf chariot - will rush out to support wolf riders or eventually take a small unit by itself
6 Squig Hoppers - if I get lucky they will support the fast attack - if not they will be on the Orcs flank supporting then directly if there will be a fight sooner that wolfies will deal with the flank
21 NG 1 fanatic - they have to hold the other "weak" flank - nothing to fancy just dont allow flank charges on the orcs
21 NG 1 fanatic - as above
Total 1000 points
Everything deploys at maximum distance maybe hoppers will deploy a bit back if there will be a forest they can hide into.
1 - the orcs without general somewhere in the center - this is the left unit on the diagram (NOTE the diagram shows formation after first move!)
2 - NG on the left (using diagram directions) - I hope my enemy will assume I will go on the stronger flank there
3 - If there is so much space on the other flank to put the second unit and still fit wolf riders (to pretend they are going there) second NG unit lands if not second orc unit - Still hope My enemy will strenghten other side of the table.
4 - other orcs if second NG was placed (if not skip this)
5 - chariot - a typical infantry support so no signs yet
6 - Squigs - I hope this will look like closing the flank (and pretending I intend to field the wolfies on another flank) - this is crutial here as usually people leaves the most important units at the end and I don't want my wolfs to hit such an unit!
7 - other NG if they aren't there yet
8 - Wolf riders
Turn 1 (Assuming all animosity were checked - If not formation will move 4" to "wait" for the failed unit - if it was a NG unit they will move 8" they are not so important yet)
Everything moves forward to make a formation as shown on the diagram - chariot position itself so it can charge something next turn (if possible) and weaken that flank wolf riders should be ready to charge as well.
Wolf riders and hopefully chariot charge something on that flank - maybe hoppers will be close enough hard to tell... I assume there are usually 2-3 units on that flank - I will pick 2 I will definitely eliminate unless there is an infantry block there in which case I will double charge (if chariot won't be in range I will charge wolfs into something weak and run off table the rest of the army moves forward but I try to be out of enemy charge range
If I win the flank fights I try to stay (if the position is safe) or run off board and come back next turn (to avoid shooting or charges) - if there is a chance (safe chance) to charge another support unit I do it.
At the stage I will probably have to charge with orcs - it's eigher that or moving them really slow - this is undefine as I hope for some advices there...
If I charge than it's this turn and enemy turn I have to fight without backup (unless goblins will be free to do something and support orcs but I don't count on that at all)
all the flankers turn around and place themselves so they can support orcs next turn
Support comes (or orcs start to charge right now) and hopefully break the foes
Turn 5 and more
cleaning on the second flank in feeded and killing off other stuff...
:unsure: There is a nasty gap between wolf riders and general orcs that can be charged and broke easily - chariot and hoppers aren't design to hold charges and even a fast cavalry can go threw them - this will cause a lot of problems as there won't be a lot I could do about those...
:unsure: This is somehow "I rely on the wolf riders unit" tactic - if they fail animosity check everything slows one turn more giving my enemy chance to react somehow - maybe I should change the list to have at least 2 reliable units that can help me out (hoppers are nice but you can't trust them and chariot... well it can be easily taken care of...)
:unsure: There is this "3 turn" problem - I won't be able to support orcs till turn 4 (assuming everything goes well that is) as my fast attack must use the 3 turn simply to turn around - hoppers are somehow a solution to this but as I said it's hard to rely on them. Question here is: should I move my battle line full speed (and charge on 3 turn hoping for the best) or should I wait and give my opponent time to deal with my weak flank and also leave the fast attack without any hope for back up if something goes wrong
:unsure: how to deal with cavalry armies - their units tend to be hard to break (especially with low strength wolf riders) so my fast attack can stuck in a hopeless fight while other units will charge my weal flank and than deal with the orcs
:unsure: How to deal with Big monsters - I don't know how to fit chukka in and treeman simply makes me scared (especially than at least 3 players here (out of say 15) use WE and they do have treeman in 1k) - any suggestion here ?
Since I like this setup I will try to make it better rather than search for the next one - this is the list of what the problems are VS other races:
**Beast of chaos - ambush can be bad - if they decide to appear on my strong flank after I attack (Ie turn 3) they will have an open road to Orcs flank and front... not too good. Also they are pretty fast so my lines will be hit soon - I will probably have to hold an advance against them.
**Bretts - well 1k army is 3 units of knights I guess - I hope I can pass them with the fast element or get the fight with one of them while my goblins will stay near the orcs to threaten fanatics if they feel like charing
**Dark elves - I think it can go well here if I won't have fear problems with wolf riders. they tend to get Multiple Small Units but that even helps me as such are easier to break with chariot and wolf riders
** Dwarfs - first of all gyrocopter that will halve my movement! Secondly dwarfs are hard - if they Have some shooting I will try to break threw those units (if I won't run in panic which is quite possible really) - a gun line is a nice thing as I can go threw one flank and then starting from there kill the rest. Blocks are scarry as I probably can't kill a dwarf warrior unit with wolf riders... but I don't suspect more than 2-3 blocks in 1k
** Empire - hard to tell as I haven't faced the new empire yet - cavalry shouldn't be a problem as usually they tend to go in units of 5 (so I have 3 static with my wolf riders) and than no wounds hopefully...
** High elves - Magic will kill me of and this is a big problem here... also bolt throwers can hurt a lot...
** Chaos - strong guys - I hope they will be limited in numbers so I can easily pass them and get around (maybe without a fight) so no advance here as well (to give my fast moving units time tu turn around - they will come to me that is certain!
** Lizardman - never faced them before so no idea
** Ogres - without a charge one weaker unit should be killed by wolf riders with a hero - fear can be a problem but that is what you get... also chariot should do good - unfortunately orcs will have to take the charge (they are so fast!) unless I place waagh nicely but that is a risk!)
** Orcs and goblins - hmmm... fanatics can kill my wolfies all right and than it's rather uphill... I always had hard time facing orcs... as they are so unpredictable it's hard to tell what my opponent will do!
** Skaven - no one in my group plays them...
** Tomb kings - fear can be problematic and magic will do havoc (especially with the screaming catapult!) but this looks possible
** Vampires - Magic again - this time he can raise units on the strong flank to slow me down - this really is a problem as I won't have anything to counter that - I don't have idea how to deal with that
** Wood elves - the dreaded ones... well wolf riders with hero should break the unit of driads - chariot and hoppers together have a chance against other unit. Elves still are expencieve so there shouldn't be a lot of those units. Problem is that most of those units skirmish so even if I will be on their back they can decide to charge wolfs instead of orcs and that may spoil the plan. Fear can be the problem and treeman will be the problem for sure!
Woah that is a long write :) I hope you enjoyed it and I really count for your help...
Groznit Goregut - October 31, 2007 03:19 PM (GMT)
I might suggest putting in some savage orc boar boyz instead of the big unit of wolf riders. I know I said that wolf riders are good, but I was thinking in a larger list (2k) then you could have a couple of units. I think with a smaller list (1k) that you might need something more relaible or tougher then the wolf riders. For the points that you are putting into the wolf riders, how many savage orc boar boyz could you get? I'm thinking a unit of 7 or so might be good. These guys wouldn't worry about fear and wouldn't care about casualties from shooting. They would be a little slower, so your chariot would be closer. More importantly, I think they would have the strength to take on knights and other big things. The boars getting two Str 5 hits is great, let alone the spears on the orcs. You might not even need a hero in this unit, but it might not hurt, either. I would save the points.
I worry that you don't have enough defense on the far flank. Even a simple unit of wolf riders with bows would be good. They could dance around any advancing unit and just cause him to turn and face the wolf riders. If they didn't then the wolfies could charge into the rear. Even a simple spear chukka on the far flank can cause someone to go after it for only 45 pts.
I worry that the fanatics in your line might even slow your line down. Instead of having both units with a fanatic, you might want to stick two fanatics on the far unit. This way, they can toss the fanatics towards the empty flank and try to delay any advance that way. You don't want to toss them to where you are headed or where your hook is going to come in from the side.
Of course, these are just my thoughts.
Brog Ironfang - November 3, 2007 08:42 PM (GMT)
Well I was thinking about what you wrote here (and waiting for more opinions as well ...) and I can see what you are proposing. I can swap the big wolf riders unit and the boss and get 7 Savage Boar Boyz with spears with musician and standard (war banner) + 5 spider riders on the other flank.
This means I have 2 NG units and spiders to protect me on one side and 6 hoppers wolf chariot and savages to attack the other while 2x20 boyz protect the center - really nice setup but I'm a bit scared - 7 savage boar boyz mean 20% of my force which with their great charge range can be easily lured into some bad position and I won't have anything to screen them (sure I can use hoppers but that means I would have to go as fast as they do - not the best idea I guess...
sure in 1k there won't be a lot of things that can lure me but unit of hounds or anything wood elvish comes to mind... I really like this setup but I'm a bit concerned about that frenzy (on another hand normal boar boyz are to weak for line breakers ...)
any suggestion ?
PS I see all the work you people do to help me out and I really apreciate that - normally I would simply help all other folks around in this forum but frankly I don't feel good enough to give advices - so if you have any painting problems or something I will do my best to help out - you know I want to be helpful as well :)
Groznit Goregut - November 4, 2007 12:14 PM (GMT)
If you find an opponent that you worry about getting lured with, you can always swap the spider riders on the boar flank to assist! You can always be flexible.
Brog Ironfang - November 4, 2007 03:02 PM (GMT)
yea but when I swap them the "hook" will be rather weak without them! (only hoppers and chariot...) or do I miss something ?
Mostyn - November 4, 2007 07:32 PM (GMT)
(Again all with the caveat I've not played a single game as O&Gs)
I think he means put the spider riders on the "hook" flank to act as screens. For what it's worth I agree with changing the wolf riders to savage orc boar boyz and a unit of spider riders for the other flank. Personally I think it will give you a bit more flexibility (the hoppers can always be swapped to act as a deterent on the "non hook" side if the threat from there is so great or the spider riders across if your SOBB need a screen) and the line breaking unit is as effective as the wolf riders with hero.
Beyond that I think the list and the plan are good ones and you should give it a try (or a few tries). As always the devil is in the detail (or in this case the execution) but I can see no reason why you shouldn't be able to win your fair share of games with this list. They'll be days when animosity destroys your hook because you're relying on that one unit of boar boyz to do the work but at 1000pts I think you're always going to struggle to get two units for every task as you potentially can at 2000pts. Besides if your army always did what it wanted you'd play high elves or dwarves right? I think Sart said it quite well in another thread in that it's all about finding an army list that works for you so it's probably time to test drive this one.
If you're still having problems you could always post a few battle reports from which it's normally apparent if the problem is in the detail (Warhammer is, as I'm sure you're aware, won and lost in the movement phase) or that the dice gods have simply taken a strong dislike to you. :)
Either way best of luck with the army - I can't wait to hear how it goes.
Brog Ironfang - November 4, 2007 09:52 PM (GMT)
Well I think it will be possible for me to get a game this week (Wednesday really) still only a plan but a possible one - maybe I will even have a chance to play twice :)
we will see we will see ;)
of course I post battlereports ASAP :)
Groznit Goregut - November 4, 2007 10:50 PM (GMT)
Sorry, I meant move the spider riders to the hook side if you feel you need a screen.
Hey, I hope to hear some results soon! I won't be on as much this next week and I will be on holiday the week after, but I will try to watch for a battle report. Good luck!
Brog Ironfang - November 5, 2007 07:39 AM (GMT)
Yes of course you meant that - I had one of those "weak moments" i guess and for some reason I didnt figure it out :mellow: :wacko:
and thanks for help - I will try to post something soon (if I get the game that is :) )
Brog Ironfang - November 6, 2007 02:40 PM (GMT)
I will get a game tomorrow (maybe 2 !!) - this is a good chance to check the strategy as well as the list - I got a bit scarred of luring my savages and magic (at 1k there will be mages I'm sure). To solve both I decided that if I get a second game I will try such setup:
Black Orc Big Boss @ 89 Pts
General; Choppa; Heavy Armour
Savage Orc Shaman @ 151 Pts
Frenzy; Magic Level 2; Big Waagh; Choppa; Warpaint
Waaagh! Paint 
Nibbla's Itty Ring 
5 Savage Boar Boyz @ 146 Pts
Frenzy; Choppa; Spear; Warpaint; Shield; Standard; Musician
19 Orc Boyz @ 144 Pts
Choppa; Light Armour; Shield; Standard; Musician; Orc Boss
20 Orc Boyz @ 150 Pts
Choppa; Light Armour; Shield; Standard; Musician; Orc Boss
6 Squig Hoppers @ 90 Pts
1 Wolf Chariot @ 63 Pts
21 Night Goblins @ 92 Pts
1 Fanatic @  Pts
5 Goblin Spider Riders @ 71 Pts
Spear; Shield; Musician
Casting Pool: 4
Dispel Pool: 3
Models in Army: 80
Total Army Cost: 996
What changed is - I added a savage shaman and to make the points I erased one NG unit and reduced the sagave orc boar boyz power. Idea is that I get a decent magic which may help me out with removing potential baiting units as well as the big ones + protection from enemy magic (at least some protection)
shaman is quite safe really as he fights almost as the normal savage boar boy and he will see combat early on getting that wonderful +2 to casting rolls meaning I will be able to get 2 spells + boundspell off each turn - nice :) There is only one magic missile in orc magic and all other spells I can cast from combat (the re-roll misses spell comes to my mind as well as gork's warpath)
I'm just curious if this will work - I hope I will be able to check this tomorrow
any last suggestions ?
Groznit Goregut - November 6, 2007 05:25 PM (GMT)
It sounds like it has a good chance! Let us know how it went! I go on holiday this weekend, so I hope you post before I go.
Brog Ironfang - November 7, 2007 09:27 PM (GMT)
Battle against Shooty dwarfs:
Orcs: List as above with shaman (he got gork warpath and waaagh)
2x warrior blocks of 20
2x bolt (one S7)
organ gun (or helblaster :P)
terrain - there is a forest in my deployment on the left (nothing interesting) and on the left flank there is a hill in the middle of the table. On the right there is a forest and hill in the center of his deployment (won the roll to pick who is choosing side :/)
DWARFS: Basically no movement - only right warriors turn a bit to face savage BB direction. Shooting didn't do much couple of orcs hare and there.
ORCS: NG fail animosity (1) rest behave nice. Hoppers land in the perfect spot in the forest (nice!) SBB move up to the forest - I could let them behind it so they would be covered from organ gun but I hoped I will reach bolt thrower next turn + I wanted to magic ogran gun to death. Magic - ring killed one organ gun crewman but I failed to cast foot of gork. Also my spiders went full ahead.
DWARFS - left warriors move a bit to my lines. Shooting killed 2 SBB (organ gun) my general unit lost a second rank bonus and the other orc unit lost 4 models
ORCS - Hoppers failed animosity (1) - they are a bit behind but perfectly covered so I was actually happy with that. Everything else moves normally. SBB were around 1" short so I moved on the boltthrower flank Everything else advances (dwarfs are still out of charge range - I'm getting close). Magic did nothing (I failed to cast warpath and he dispelled the boundspell)
DWARFS - his left warriors head to my orcs but are stopped by a fanatic that didn't make it (6"). other warriors hold position. Shooting did some major wounds - SBB are reduced to 3 models (shaman and 2 other) my general unit have rank bonus of 1 and the other one consist of only 6 models! NG are safe (for now) after his warmachines shoot his engineers shoot to my spiders killing 2 and sending them off board :/
ORCS - SBB charge bolt thrower and chariot charge his warriors (I will be able to run threw the machine and hit their flank. I called waagh but my general unit moved only 1" I declared a charge but they were 1" short to hit dwarfs flank... My hoppers moved towards them as well but rolled really low and didn't make it (they landed behind a chariot - that will prove fatal to them!) Magic - with shaman in combat I wanted to cast Waagh - I had NG perfectly on the flank of one warriors (threw 6 orcs would probably die due to fanatic) and my general was starring at other dwarfs flank. I rolled 15+2 from being in combat and I drawn a dispell dice before for the boundspell - still my opponent rolled double 6 and It was over. SBB killed the crew and had to overrun into warriors - (there were only standard and shaman there and one was killed with the handgun turn before) then they break (actually dwarfs killed the remaining SBB and shaman failed and fled to the table end just to be killed next round by organ gun. Dwarfs pursuit the chariot that do 3 wounds to hoppers due to impact hits and kill itself on the forest.
DWARFS - he attempts to charge (i think...) my Orcs with the left unit but fail short. Right unit charge remaining 3 hoppers and kill them easily. Organ gun kill my shaman while all other shooting goes to my Boss unit and at the end he is the only surviver!
ORCS - My NG (flank) 6 remaining orcs (front) and Boss (other flank) charge Warriors - I win the fight and my NG get the banner - dwarfs were overruned.
DWARFS - All shooting concentrates at my NG but they passed the panic check (and have 2 rank bonus now) only organ gun shoot at my Boss and despite only 2 hits it kill him outright
ORCS - My NG charge thunderers and they survived stand and shoot (only one dead!) then I menage to win the combat by 1 somehow and he breaks! I follow him and kill the rifleman (no banner threw) also my NG hit the organ gun in the process - it seems I would have a combat round there but we thought that was 6 turn so the game ended.
5 - 15 loss
If a war machine have 4 crew members (engineer) does it have 4 US (he had 5 models in total with his engineer general and we didin't know if that claims a table quater)
When I charge uphill but end on the hill do my opponent recieve a higher ground (or mus he stand on the edge of the hill) - this possibly could influence the thunderers fleeing
This is sort of fair play question - I had a chariot hidden by my unit - he could shoot at that unit with the cannon and either hit 5 orcs or 3 orcs and a chariot - is this "friendly ok" to aim at those 3 orcs and chariot even threw you don't see it (i know that would be legal)
Hard to tell if the "hook" worked well - truth is that the "punch" was killed before they had a chance to actually fight which brings the "wolf riders instead of savages" topic up once more - savages are nice and the fact they won't panic was ace but they will simply die before they reach combat - at least i have fear that this is how will that end (but I will give them several tries yet - I haven't painted the wolfies models and I dislike playing with unpainted horde).
Shaman did poorly. For 2 turns I had 3 PD Vs 3 DD situation (he always used 1 dice to stop bound item) and I failed twice to cast a 10+ spell on 3 dices... that would change something as I could removed organ gun... then he rolled double '6' and stopped me from charging my boss unit onto his flank (and re-roll misses which would be great as well!)
I think I might need a second fast and hard unit but there isn't much I can sacrefice...
any suggestions ideas ?
Groznit Goregut - November 8, 2007 02:48 PM (GMT)
Ouch! Sounds like a few critical things didn't go your way. I think it was a good plan, but a dwarven gunline is harsh! My boar boyz HATE organ guns and hellblasters. I had one misfire once and all guns went off. Sure, the cannon was blown, but I lost a full unit of 12 boar boyz!
You can try it with wolf boyz if you want, but I say try it again with the boar boyz. I think things were well, but a few twists got you. Argh! Sorry to hear that it didn't go well. At least at this point, you have a plan and you can start to tinker with it to see what works against specific foes. Maybe the gobbos would be a better choice? Maybe not?
Keep us informed!
Brog Ironfang - November 8, 2007 10:27 PM (GMT)
Second battle :)
Terrain - as above.
This time dwarfs went "fighty"
20 Warriors with HW
20 Warriors with GW
Organ gun (this will HURT!)
Setup - I ended up almost the same - only spider riders were on my far right flank and savages were on the felt side of the forest
He deployed on the very left starting with 20 warriors with HW than Longbeards with general of some sort and then 20 warriors with GW in the center (that was his right flank as well :P)
It was so that all my 3 blocks faced his and my SBB get a jucy flank with chariot and hoppers and spiders there as well (plan was to erase organ gun ASAP with whatever comes first and than turn around and kill him off.
Shaman got 1 and 6
ORCS - he won the roll but give me the beginning as I was out of Organ gun range. I moved up ahead with SBB trying to get the flank and hoppers going 8" chariot was out of chance to charge machine jet and spiders squabled so there was no chance for me to use them magic did nothing (he dispelled it) apart from that my shaman got a wound from itty ring
DWARFS - his 3 blocks marched in my direction and his Organ gun rolled 10 hits and killed my entire SOBB unit... only shaman left :/
ORCS - well my best flankers are out but I still have some chances - Squigs roll 8 and move a bit out of the forest - chariot moves in the charge range to the machine and spiders try to catch up. My main blocks go a bit in dwarf direction but not too much (I wanted to give me time for killing the machine) Shaman hid in the forest and tried to cast something but without succes
DWARFS - he marches full ahead and triggers fanatic that kills 3 longbeards and landed on the other end of that unit thretening warriors or longbeards next round. Organ gun fired at my chariot but only did one wound
ORCS - since I was short on time I turn around and moved back 2" - leaving him out of charge range - my chariot killed his machine and hoppers landed perfectly on the flank of his warriors with GW ready to charge next round. Fanatic did nice and killed 2 GW dwarfs removing their rank bonus (which will prove crutial :)) Shaman did nothing once again (he casted spell but with no wounds)
DWARFS - he marches and stops 2" in front of me basically forcing me to charge him withouth chariot support (it was facing other direction)
ORCS - NG rolled '6' and charged his HW Warriors - at that point I had nothing else to do than charge with my other blocks... and than Hoppers rolled 1 meaning I'm fighting head on with dwarfs with no support! Fight went all right as I managed to draw all the fights :) my chariot turn around to see all the fights
DWARFS - fighting with no support continues - all my units lost a model turn before so I don't have the rank advantage which I had at the beginning. My general unit (fighting GW dwarfs) held unfortunately other orcs were broken and run down by longbeards - and my NG held (nice!) His miners appear near my shaman (out of his Los threw)
ORCS - I charge my chariot and spiders into the flank of warriors while my hoppers goes back to "chase" victorious longbeards. Dwarfs are beaten beyond hope and flee - since I wasn't able to stop anyone from chaing them (i wanted to go with spiders only) they were run down - My NG rallied :) my shaman used bound item once more to wound his general... and killed himself :/
DWARFS - he turned with his longbeards facing my hoppers and his warriors charged and broke my NG again (they tied up a far more expencieve unit - that really heped out) still they outrun Dwarfs once again :)
ORCS - hoppers spiders chariot and my general unit basically surrounded his longbeards and NG rally again
DWARFS - his warriors charge my NG for the third time and finally break them and chase off board. Longbeards face spider riders (so there are units on both flanks but non on the rear)
Turn 7 (we thought it was turn 6)
ORCS - well spiders roll 1 for animosity but other units are fine charge longbeards and basically erase them. they flee and are run down reclaiming my banner and taking theirs.
he gave up
we didn't calculate the points but I won ...
Savages were reap apart in turn 1 meaning my "hook punch" was really weak there... - everything eventually turn out to be good but I found another thing - even If I charge something in the flank with savages which is possible if I won I will have to pursuit in direction of my biggest US unit and that always will be orcs meaning I won't be able to pursuit into a flank of new unit (that fight with second orc unit) and they will be with no support for at least 4 more fights as I won't be able to stop savages from running after the first unit as they are frenzied... still I can stop my general unit but they will help in 2 fighting turns so it's hard anyway...
any ideas ?