Friendship = Love ?

And listen, I'm not against a good debate. Nothing makes me happier than a good debate. But using "fighting words" is completely out of the question. We don't want to mimic the American Congress, and we certainly don't want to compete in mud-slinging as the Republicans and Democrats do.

Balance in a LxZ forum? There might be some balance in a "Who Should Link Fall in Love With?" forum (or maybe not), but a LxZ forum is going to be inherently one-sided.

As for which love interest would have the closer friendship with Link for possible romance in the future?? Well Malon is the ONLY love interest that you have the option to interract with anytime in OOT. Link hardly ever has a chance to interract with Zelda until around the very end so its not a far stretch from the imagination that its more likely that Link builds a stronger bond with Malon than Zelda for actual possible romance in the future Child Timeline. To me Zelda seems more of a motherly close best friend and nothing more.

I think its because of the very NON ROMANTIC special cutscenes in OOT and MM where Link seems to express no romantic interest in Zelda whatsoever. Remember, Malon is just a secondary character who is not allowed special cutscenes like Zelda. And the ones Zelda did get indicated Link was not interested in her in that special type of way IMO.

Link also uses Epona in MM so thats good enough indication that he has maintained a close friendship with Malon that he had already established in OOT. Not to mention the Cremia hug which is a good indication that he maybe physically attracted to Malon when he grows up.

IMO..living with Malon at Lon Lon ranch in being closer to the common people/diverse races of Hyrule seems to fit better with Link's humble and unassuming personality. Permanently living with Zelda at Hyrule Castle, Link would seem totally out of his element as being the only person in the Hyrule Court wearing a silly looking green outfit. It would seem he would be a novelty social misfit not really fitting in among the Hyrule social elite IMO.

So IMO:
LinkxMalon = romantic lovers
LinkxZelda = close best friends

Actually, you are wrong about that. You can go see Zelda anytime you want until her and Impa flee. Ruto and Saria can be both found as children at anytime whatsoever. And even if Malon is available...it doesn't mean Link's going to fall in love with her. ( He really has nothing in common with her to begin with, aside from a mutual appreciation for Epona. )

As for the motherly thing...you need proof. No mother I know talks to a son the way Zelda talks to Link. They are a Hero and Princess...I would think it's easier to go for the simple explanation ( romantic ) that you see in so many fairy tales.

You are interpreting those cutscenes to support your point, so of course you see nothing romantic. Most of us do the same for our point of view.
Once again though, I will pull these out:

Ruto: "I offer you my eternal love." *Link reacts in shock* " At least that's what I'd like to say but I don't think I can offer that anymore. I have to stay here and guard the Water Temple, and you, you are searching for the Princess, Zelda?"
"Ha! you can't hide anything from me! Princess Zelda is alive...I can sense it so don't be discouraged."

Nothing romantic? Look deeper. That kind of speech is typically used to indicate when someone has a secret crush on someone and it's been discovered.

Impa: "...There's nothing to worry about. The Princess is safe now."

Again, the game is drawing our attention to Link's particular concern for Zelda. And beyond this I don't need to draw your attention to Link freaking out when she gets kidnapped or anything after: I thought they were obvious. If Link did have romantic feelings for anyone aside from Saria, this seems the most obvious option.

See the scene where Link remembers Zelda. Much stronger implications than the second hand inference that Link must have gotten Epona from Malon.

Uh huh. ( To Cremia. ) I'd bet you 99% of the 10-12 year old boys in the world are physically attracted to Angelina Jolie. Does that mean they will marry her when they grow up? Not likely.
Same deal with Link. So Cremia's pretty. Oh well. He's not going to marry her because she's "hot".

You know...the root of this idea seems based around the view that Link is incapable of growth or change. If he can't or hasn't...what was the point of the quest? If Link hadn't gone on it, I'd bet Malon/Ilia/Saria would be a shoe-in. But the point is that he HAS.
Something I can see with Malon/Ilia? They will never escape the small view that comes with that life. They are defined by being "The farm girl." What on earth would they know of adventures and a world so big? I have yet to even see them desire a knowledge for it.
I think that right there would be what seperates them from Link.

The dialogue with Ruto and Impa only implicates he has a concern for Zelda. It doesn't mean his is in love with her in anyway whatsoever. Link is like that, he is concerned with helping everybody. Since Zelda is the focal character of course he is going to be concerned with her safety.

The Cremia hug only suggests that he could be attracted to Malon for a POSSIBLE romance with Malon in the future thats all. It doesn't guarantee anything just like Zelda giving Link the stupid ocarina doesn't guarantee he is going to fall in love with Zelda as some Zelinkers believe.

And there is nothing in the games OOT/MM that suggests Link has anything in common with Zelda romantically outside of them just being good friends. And Malon doesn't have to be concerned with protecting the world for romance to happen, only that she hopes for Link's safe return when he is out battling baddies. Again your not being realistic here in suggesting Malon has to be like Zelda for Link to fall in love with her. Where is your proof in this besides manga that only addresses the non romance between Link and Zelda in the actual games??

Anyway...why would Link want to be out of place in Hyrule Castle with Zelda forcing him to be a pet on a leash and feebly attempt to make him a courtly aristocrat?? Its obvious it would be more difficult for Link to adapt to a castle lifestyle than a more humble lifestyle in Lon Lon ranch that is obviously more suited to his personality. Bottom line Link has nothing in common with Zelda whatsoever period except that he has the stupid ocarina and thats it.

Perhaps. But you need to consider the implications of that phrasing, at least in the Ruto case. If a Malinker can take, "Knight in Shining Armor will come and sweep her off her feet" to indicate romance, likewise "Ha! you can't hide anything from me" can indicate a tacit attempt by the creators to tell us something. It's called subtext. This is a classic way for a shy/quiet character to get outted about their feelings for someone.
This method was repeated in WW: Beedle: "Are you acquainted with that adorable pirate girl?.....you are looking bashful Mr Customer!"

As for this only being because she's Zelda...Link himself doesn't often show feelings at all so when he does, we should pay attention, regardless if it's Zelda or not.
And you are right...she IS Zelda. The same Zelda who Link is romantically linked to nearly everything Legend of Zelda...doesn't that also mean something? Not always ( TP ) but in 90% of the cases, yes. A romantic intent could be suggested based solely on that.
( As Malinkers do with Marin, but LA was only one game at this point. And Malon has never been followed up as a romantic interest, despite appearances in at least 3 other games. )

I'll buy that Cremia/Malon is an option. I just think Zelda will be the one he'll choose in the end...the feeling/depth of the two cutscenes was entirely different. One serious ( Zelda ) the other, not so much.

The game doesn't focus on romance, period. It's not as easy as me saying, "BAM! here's romance."
In common, that's a difference. Here's my case.
1) Both are chosen for a unique, world and life changing role that will make them never the same.
2) This creates a sort of loneliness...nobody but them will ever quite understand.
3) Both are rejects in a way. Link is not a true Kokiri and has been ostracized. Zelda is the Princess..everyone puts her on a pedestal.
4) Both have a responsibility to the land that means they will have to always put their personal desires second.

Simply put, they understand each other...and they'd likely come back to this again and again whenever the going got rough. I just don't see Link starting up a relationship with another girl when he has this. If he did...his return to Zelda for deep, heartfelt understanding could spell disaster for his current relationship.
Isn't that everyone truly wants in life when they think of a partner? Someone to see beyond the outside, someone who'll understand and know you at the deepest level, but not be put off of what they find. I can't truthfully say that there was any indication of Malon and Link having this. It was superficial, or at least one-way.
As for Link and Zelda..." I feel like I have known you forever. I'll never forget the days we have spent together and I believe in my heart that a day will come when I shall meet you again."...I see massive subtext with this statement. Whenever a girl says, " I believe in my heart" in regards to Link...I think that's a serious implication. One that Ilia, Marin, Tetra, Zelda in many incarnations share even if not said.

This all revolves around your assumption that Link wouldn't want to be there. If he loved Zelda the way I suspect he did, he'd adapt.

Okay..your opinion. What then does Link have in common with Malon that trumps Zelda?

GILDERPILOT SAID
1) Both are chosen for a unique, world and life changing role that will make them never the same.
2) This creates a sort of loneliness...nobody but them will ever quite understand.
3) Both are rejects in a way. Link is not a true Kokiri and has been ostracized. Zelda is the Princess..everyone puts her on a pedestal.
4) Both have a responsibility to the land that means they will have to always put their personal desires second.

Simply put, they understand each other...and they'd likely come back to this again and again whenever the going got rough.

These points are actually interchangeable with them being close best friends or close twin siblings. At the same time the common issues you pointed out between Link and Zelda still bodes well for possible romance in the future CT, but its not guaranteed IMO. Just like its not guaranteed that Link and Malon having similar humble backgrounds and a love for Epona and horses means they will fall in love with each other either.

Also, Malon is just a secondary character so of course that relationship is not going to be explored as much as Zelda's relationship with Link is. LinkxMalon is left more to the imagination if anything. But its good to see that I FINALLY got you to agree with me that the games had no romance for Link with anyone. Zelda and Malon included.

As I have stated before, I don't know who Link ends up with but I prefer him being with Malon because to me it fits more with the traditional and more manly role with Link as husband/provider to Malon doing more of the comforting & nurturing that you like to talk about. But I agree that in the LinkxZelda, the domineering & motherly comforting/nurturing role of Zelda can also correspond to a romantic relationship as well.

Its just it seems Zelda would be the dominant one in the relationship and not Link. From where I come from its a term commonly used as Link being WHUPPED, and its a negative term implying that the husband is constantly controlled by the wife. To me Link assuming the more manly role as Malon's comforter is more appealing to my own personal tastes in how I have been raised on what a man should be.

Thats just me going on my own personal real life experiences on what type of romantic relationship I would like to picture Link being in. But if Link is in love with Zelda, then he should be with Zelda.

Maybe the points are - but some of the things that are said are still very suspicious for two that may only be friends. ( MM dialogue )

Nothing is guaranteed: but these factors will more than likely lead to them establishing a strong bond. ( And they did in game. ) This a first and very important step, a head start, you could say.

If they had wanted to, they could have focused on her far more. They did with Saria and with Ilia. I don't think Malon was ever supposed to be more than just a cameo for Marin and a guide to Epona. If Cremia/Romani got more screen time, it was because the game was a set up for NPC development. And that at that point, the creators knew how popular Malon was and wanted to cater to the fans.

You didn't get me to do anything: I've always thought that the romance was subtle and implied.

I think you have a wrong idea of what is a domineering relationship. A domineering relationship is one where that member totally runs the show...controlling the partner and making all the decisions. Free will from the controlled member is seen as a threat, and sometimes even punished. I too have had the experience of real life..and I've seen this close up. Believe me...Zelda is not remotely domineering. If you don't believe me...look at her actions.

End of OoT: she sets Link free. MM: also sets him free, trusting he will return some day.

I think that's what often defines a domineering relationship: control and an inability to let go. Zelda isn't like that. Compare her with Ilia's behavior at the beginning of TP. THAT is controlling behavior. Malon herself has her father "whupped" at the beginning of the game - he's controlled by fear of her. Would it be any better if she felt Link was doing the wrong thing? Link isn't going to be any more manly just because Malon isn't a ruling Princess.

As for Zelda making the decisions rather than Link...she's right most of the time. It would be folly to suggest that Link make the calls solely because he is the man.

Don't get me wrong, Link wouldn't be dominant over Zelda, Malon or any other optional female romantic interest since its generally accepted by most Zelda fans that Link has the personality of an unassertive doormat either way. Its just by your own admission in that Malon being more of a victim in need of a husband/provider than the more self reliant Zelda seems to suggest Link would more likely fit into the more traditional husband role of comforter to Malon than he would with Zelda.

The fact that you stated Zelda is always right a majority of the time suggests that its far more likely she would be more domineering over Link than Malon would be, who is nothing more than a simple minded commoner when compared to the wise and all knowing Zelda. Not to mention I relate more to the Malon relationship because I have never dated a princess before so I don't relate to the LinkxZelda relationship nearly as much. Is that OK with you??

Anyway, I can agree with the subtlties in the games but unfortunately it was not enough for many Zelda fans. This may come as a shock to you but I'm not the only fan that was disappointed with the OOT ending in Link not expressing any real romantic desire to stay with Zelda. It seems the mangas intent was to fix this problem in the lack of romance within the actual game wouldn't you agree??

A marriage is a partnership...Link might not enjoy having a wife who is always the victim. His life is going to be defined by what he does away from home...a wife who can't or won't look after herself would be a burden to him rather than a help.
Zelda being self-sufficient would bring him peace...if he is out risking his life he'd know that she could take care of herself if something happened to him.
Also...don't you think Link might get tired of people always being the victim? Home should be where he can get some relief.

Not necessarily. I think that it's incredibly naive to think that Malon's going to be submissive because just because she's common. She's proven that she has spunk ( and a temper ) so if she thinks she's right....look out. She doesn't have the wisdom that Zelda does to balance it.
If you don't believe me, look at Ilia. Her tantrum and actions were the result of her inability to listen or reason because she thought she was right. Even worse, they were the result of her being controlled by fear.
Do you really think Zelda would have behaved that way if she was in Ilia's shoes?

And even though Zelda was right as a child, she still begged for Link to help her. She didn't just tell him...she always treats him with deference and respect...not with controlling behavior.

For you personally...that's your decision. It seems Malon gets alot of support because of the "identifyable" aspect. She's also seen as the underdog..people want her to win.

I was disappointed too. I wanted Link to stay with Zelda...but I also recognize how important his return was afterwards. That took intent on his part, remember that.
He got a fresh start...and he desired to return to her.

I've always thought the intent of the manga was to elaborate, and in some cases clear up things. While it turns out that the Ocarina of Time manga is apparently the only one not directly supervised by Aonuma, Nintendo has never asserted it's not canon ( and therefore not important. ) That's the fan base's doing.
Anyways, the manga did clear up many things: Link's past ( not siblings ), Sheik's gender ( mentally male, implied likely physically female ), Malon ( not romantic ) so I could see the manga making it clear that Link did truly love Zelda. I see it as a more realistic take on what really happened.

The way I see it, Link being with Malon would nullify the whole victim thing altogether as he would be the husband/provider/comforter/protector/knight in shining armor for her. I see Link's theoretical marriage/partnership with Malon being similar to a feudal knight of historical medieval times in raising a family along the countryside in the service of fealty in protecting their respected kingdoms.

It doesn't make sense that Malon would continue being a victim with Link being there at Lon Lon ranch as her husband. If he can take on big monsters in scary dungeons with no problem, eliminating Malon's victim dillema would obviously be a breeze.

As I said before, I can't picture any female love interest being submissive to Link of all people. I only meant Zelda would probably be a little more domineering than Malon because lets face it, in pop literature royal princesses/rulers are generally depicted as being more domineering personalities in the first place. Why would Zelda be any different??

But yeah..I agree with the manga thing addressing the doubts and complaints from the actual game in the Link and Zelda relationship.

She's still going to be a victim in the sense of being dependant on him. And you just said my biggest beef: "...with Link being there at Lon Lon ranch as her husband."
Link's life is not about running a farm, we both know that. And he's not an ordinary feudal knight either...he's the chosen Hero of Hyrule. His life is about others..not himself or even Malon. I dislike hearing these theories about how Link can leave Malon at home and go off to do his duty because they don't pay attention to what the games have told us. Talon wants a partner for Malon, and someone to come work alongside her. It's the same deal with Cremia and Romani. They want someone to take the load off them, not leave them holding the bag.
This theory of how Link can marry Malon seems naive and unrealistic to me.

Why? Because she is Zelda, and not them. You've ignored everything I've said about defining a domineering personality, believe me, Zelda is not one.
And neither is Malon the sweet little girl waiting patiently at home.

If anything, it's Malon and not Zelda who has the more domineering personality. Now, I'm not saying that she's a tyrant or anything, it's just that Malon has a tendency to tell people what to do, whereas Zelda asks.

Sort of off topic, but this has been bothering me for a while. MalonsLover, you portray Link in quite a negative manner.
You're constantly belittling his intelligence, despite the fact that Link spends every game fighting his way through treacherous dungeons and battling clever monsters. Would a moron be able to figure out all of the puzzles and whatnot that Link does?
You're always bringing his manhood into question, and saying he has the personality of an unassertive doormat. If this were the case, he wouldn't have stood up to Ganondorf the man, let alone Ganon the beast. Sure, he listened to and obeyed what Zelda asked him to do, but this is because she just knew better in regards to that situation!
You're adamant that he has "stupid" or "blank" expressions, especially in regards to Ocarina of Time. That game was for the Nintendo 64, and a game developer could only do so much with the graphics of the day. For example, when the first Tomb Raider game came out, gamer guys hailed Lara Croft as the hottest girl ever, but by today's standards, her pointy pixels are far from sexy. But as hardware evolved and graphics could be rendered in more and more detail, character models became far more ascetically pleasing and expressive. After all, look how much emotion the developers were able to show through WW Link's expressions and mannerisms.
And in defence of your Malink stance, you usually say that Link would be completely unadaptable to courtly life. I'd just like to know where you get that notion. Yes, Link did grow up in the forest with a bunch of eternal children, but that hardly makes him a savage. And if the game showed us anything, it's that Link's adaptable. How else could he have gotten over the shock of being "frozen" for seven years, only to find the world declined without him, and then go on to restore that world?

She's still going to be a victim in the sense of being dependant on him. And you just said my biggest beef: "...with Link being there at Lon Lon ranch as her husband."
Link's life is not about running a farm, we both know that. And he's not an ordinary feudal knight either...he's the chosen Hero of Hyrule. His life is about others..not himself or even Malon. I dislike hearing these theories about how Link can leave Malon at home and go off to do his duty because they don't pay attention to what the games have told us. Talon wants a partner for Malon, and someone to come work alongside her. It's the same deal with Cremia and Romani. They want someone to take the load off them, not leave them holding the bag.
This theory of how Link can marry Malon seems naive and unrealistic to me.

Why? Because she is Zelda, and not them. You've ignored everything I've said about defining a domineering personality, believe me, Zelda is not one.
And neither is Malon the sweet little girl waiting patiently at home.

Who says Link would be an ordinary feudal knight?? This is Link we are talking about, he would be the only feudal knight Hyrule needs. IMO its far more likely Link would be far more effective in being a Hero living with Malon and being close to the common people/diverse races of Hyrule and protecting them from possible dangers, instead of living away from them doing nothing in Hyrule Castle but being nothing more than Zelda's useless lapdog. And where do you get this ridiculous notion that Malon being dependent on Link is going to make her a victim?? A VICTIM FROM WHAT?? Link should want to protect his wife from harm, thats what loving husbands do Gilderpilot. DUUHH

What your saying is the same thing as me saying Link has no business being in Hyrule Castle totally out of place as a useless courtly aristocrat with somebody he has absolutely nothing in common with except posessing a silly Ocarina. You're just expressing personal opinions to fit your idealistic views for a LinkxZelda when there is no proof whatsoever that Link would want to live such an awkwardly unlikely lifestyle.

As for Malon being more domineering, there is no dialogue in the game that indicates she would be domineering over Link. Her interraction with Link is rather sweet and appreciative and far less domineering than you make her out to be. Its obvious that Zelda with the TOW would be way more domineering than Malon since she would always be right all the time and she comforts and nurtures Link like a child. How much more domineering can you be?? I can't picture Link falling in love with someone thats as incompatible with him as Zelda is. LinkxZelda is just best friends forever and nothing more period IMO.

TO GR33N: Link is just a video game character, so who cares if I think he seems to be a clueless moron. And I'm not the only one who thinks OOT and TP Link has a weird fetish for allowing female love interests to keep him in line. He is who he is whether we like it or not, and that he is an endearing simple minded & obedient doormat who loves to blindly follow orders.

You know...you accuse me of having idealistic views but you are entirely guilty of having the same thing. At least my view can be reconciled with Link's calling and his new life because Zelda lives for the same thing.

This idea of Link desiring to spend his life with Malon...I often hear that she's his escape...he can have a normal life, a family, etc...I think it's awful clear that Link's calling forever takes him away from that path. He's going to have to chose one or the other. Before you remark on no evidence...go read the lines of the Hero's Spirit. It doesn't matter what Link he is...he represents a past hero who served Hyrule. He most notably remarks on Link's duty...and also how it will be lonely. "You must persist on the lonely path of the blade...".

In order for him to be the husband Malon needs ( not the girlish daydream of a knight ) he'd have to promise something of himself that he can't give...commitment to her life and goals. Zelda's is a different matter...she lives for her people as much as Link does. You don't get the same conflict of interests that would with Malon.

In order for them ( Link and Malon ) to make a life together, they'd have to fully accept this, BOTH of them. From what I've seen of Malon, I don't think she honestly could. Saria or Ilia, maybe.

Wrong. Did you miss the scene in the beginning with Talon freaking out? If that's not a sign of him having a bossy daughter, I don't know what is.
Of course Malon is sweet to Link: she wants something from him and he's done nothing to upset her. If you want an idea what likely happens when Malon gets angry, listen to Talon: " ..I finally got Malon back in a good mood..." and look at Ilia and Bo. They have the same type of relationship.

Link and Zelda aren't remotely incompatible..you are saying that to suit your POV.
If I look at the actual game...I see huge chemistry and hints everywhere that defy that POV. How about addressing those hints? ( Other than as trying to pass them off as motherly or sisterly )

So what proof do you have that Link can't commit to Malon's life goals? He would be her knight in shining armor, what more proof do you need to debunk this ridiculous VICTIM arguement that you have no proof in backing up in the first place. Another thing...FYI...real historical feudal knights were both warriors and farmers so this totally debunks your outlandish theory that Link can't provide the needs for helping Malon maintain the ranch, while protecting the people of Hyrule as the dedicated and committed Hero that he is.

And what does Malon's relationship with her father have to do with her relationship with Link?? NOTHING!! The fact of the matter is Link will be an unassertive doormat to any theoretical love interest PERIOD. Its just the ruler types (Zelda, Midna, Ruto) are more likely to be the most domineering thats all.

And the whole Hero Spirit being lonely thing seems to imply that:

A. Link never gets married.

B. He is miserable with the one he does marry. More likely that would be with Zelda.

And I agree that Link lives for the people. Thats why he should NEVER consider marrying Zelda and live a life of spoiled luxury AWAY from the common people. IMO choosing to live with Zelda at the Castle is obviously a very selfish choice for Link without question.

And yes my idealistic views are no different from yours. I agree with you 100%