Twilight Princess, Link and Zelda

I still say that there is a connection between Marin and Zelda... But anyway, I do know for a fact that Zelda does have an important role in MM, despite her lack of appearances throughout the game. The memory that Link has of Zelda is very important being that he remembers spending time with her before he left. Zelda also says that The Song of Time reminded her of "them", which usually what one refers to when they are talking about themself and another person as a couple. She also states that she believes that he will return, which we know happens because she is able to foresee the future. I would also like to point out the fact that Link is staring into space when thinking about her, and that when he recieves the ocarina it says "This reminds you of Zelda." The thought of Zelda pretty much keeps Link driven throughout the entire game, basically. Therefore Zelda remains as a dominant character that is associated in Link's life. And as far as Anju... Anju is in love with Kafei. There's really no evidence that Link has feelings for her, anyway, and besides that she's older than him. And adult and a kid does not work...

I agree with you with TP, though. They really do make the perfect match (though they do in all of the games for me, lol).

You're misunderstanding what I'm saying. Connection or not, Marin is NOT Zelda. Nor will she ever will be.

Zelda is not a dominant character in Majora's Mask, that doesn't make her role less significant, it's just smaller. Without remembering her, Link wouldn't have remembered the Song of Time. Though I don't think she was the driving force for Link in Majora's Mask. For the simple fact that Link was on a personal journey. His driving force was finding his friend. And once he realized the danger Termina was in, it was stepping up and saving the people from a horrible fate. He had much more on his mind than "omg so in love with Zelda".

Who Anju was in love with has nothing to do with the fact that she was the leading lady in this game. Who Link loves actually has no bearing on this game. Majora's Mask was more or less telling the people's of Termina stories through Link's eyes. It wasn't necessarily about him, but other people and how their lives are affected by catastrophe. Link was simply there to witness it all. Just because Anju is not Link's leading lady doesn't mean she isn't the leading lady. Being in love doesn't really constitute that role anyway. Case in point: Final Fantasy 7.

Sorry this is horribly off topic. I really have nothing else to say about TP. D:

Anju is not the leading female role in MM. Zelda still plays a signifigant role in the game, being that Link is always reminded of her whenever he has to play the ocarina. Anyway, if you're saying that she's not the leading role in the game since she's not in it, no one really is then, simply because other people have problems that need to be worked out, such as Romani and Cremia. So, maybe then, there is no central female role in the game. Zelda still has a signifigant place in it, though.

Well, this is REALLY off topic, but I felt that it would lighten the mood... There was one time when I was playing MM that in the beginning Link had no hearts and thus died after falling off his horse. When it restarted, Ocarinas filled both the item AND mask screen... Weird glitch, or what? *cough* so off topic *cough*

I wasn't implying that Zelda's role was insignificant. It was simply reduced. She was given no character development and basically no screen time, aside from the one scene where Link relearns the Song of Time. In Majora's Mask, her character was flat. On the other hand, Anju's character shone. We saw and understood her plight and we did everything in our power to help her. The longest and most involved quest in Majora's Mask was reuniting Anju and Kafei, something Anju had asked Link to help her with. Because honestly, without doing the Anju/Kafei quest (or any of the other quests for that matter), Majora's Mask would've been ridiculously short.

In essence, the story was not about Zelda (or really Link for that matter). It was telling other people's stories through the eyes of Link. It had nothing to do with Ganondorf, the Triforce, or the Goddesses, things that are generally central to a LoZ plot. Since these elements were missing, Zelda simply was not needed to advance the plot, outside of that one scene. And even then, I think that scene was unnecessary as Link remembers everything that happened in the previous time line. So I would think it was safe to say that he would remember the songs he learned. That scene was more for the player's benefit, since everyone may not have played OoT before playing MM.

This, as a matter of fact, is very similar to Twilight Princess. I think Zelda's character was more dynamic in this game, as her character developed with Midna's. She was already noble and regal and we watched her grow as Midna did.

Zelda's moment was in the most critical part of the whole game..if Link hadn't remembered her, he and all of Termina would have died: if that doesn't qualify one to be the leading lady of a film/game than what does? She was there in spirit, if not body throughout the whole game, even fulfilling her traditional role: wisdom. She gave Link the tool and wisdom to be able to suceed.

I can think of one good reason why she didn't get any development, she was developed in OoT so more development would be redundant. The way I see it, Sheik was nothing more than a manifestation of her qualities ( tomboy-ish, wise, incredibly brave, eloquent and focused ) so why would we need more? Zelda's lack of presence does not make her unimportant to Link however..I agree with everything Twilight Mistress has said about that scene's relevance to Link's feelings: it was a look into what was on his mind when he thought of her, and her importance was implied by the fact that he was going to die...and he was lost to the world in the memory of her.
So the scene made a point about her importance to him. As for the rest of the game, he had other things to worry about rather than moping about being far away from her.

I have a theory about Anju: she's Zelda's parallel in a sense in Termina, as Kafei is to Link. I could explain, but my essay with Love_of_Zelda already did it.

That depends on how you see Sheik. I know you've stated your position on that, but if you consider Sheik to OoT Zelda like Midna is to TP Zelda, you'll also see OoT Zelda had the same thing. It makes her dynamic as well ( and another parallel to TP! )

Zelda's moment was in the most critical part of the whole game..if Link hadn't remembered her, he and all of Termina would have died: if that doesn't qualify one to be the leading lady of a film/game than what does? She was there in spirit, if not body throughout the whole game, even fulfilling her traditional role: wisdom. She gave Link the tool and wisdom to be able to suceed.

I can think of one good reason why she didn't get any development, she was developed in OoT so more development would be redundant. The way I see it, Sheik was nothing more than a manifestation of her qualities ( tomboy-ish, wise, incredibly brave, eloquent and focused ) so why would we need more? Zelda's lack of presence does not make her unimportant to Link however..I agree with everything Twilight Mistress has said about that scene's relevance to Link's feelings: it was a look into what was on his mind when he thought of her, and her importance was implied by the fact that he was going to die...and he was lost to the world in the memory of her.
So the scene made a point about her importance to him. As for the rest of the game, he had other things to worry about rather than moping about being far away from her.

I have a theory about Anju: she's Zelda's parallel in a sense in Termina, as Kafei is to Link. I could explain, but my essay with Love_of_Zelda already did it.

That depends on how you see Sheik. I know you've stated your position on that, but if you consider Sheik to OoT Zelda like Midna is to TP Zelda, you'll also see OoT Zelda had the same thing. It makes her dynamic as well ( and another parallel to TP! )

I have to agree with gliderpilotgirl on this one. Zelda is a very dynamic player, no matter how much time she has on the screen. Don't forget, like movies, it doesn't show us all of the details of what happens. There are things that happen off screen as well. That's where you have to fit and place the pieces together to actually understand a character's importance in any story, such as Zelda in OoT, MM, and TP. She is a very important character.

And I believe that since Link was sent back in time, before Link and Zelda had actually met, Link does not remember what happened during the alternate timeline. This would be due to the fact that the master sword was laid to rest and thus he is unable to remain in that "flow" of time. Therefore the interactions between Link and Zelda at the end of OoT and MM are very important, being that it is implying that time itself cannot even separate the two; one is essential for the other's progress. Without Link, Zelda would not have been able to stop Ganondorf on her own. Without Zelda, Link would not be blessed with her knowledge and wisdom, something of which we see her constantly provide throughout OoT as Sheik. Also, in MM she tells him to be careful, meaning to avoid any conflicts and fights throughout his journey as much as possible. When Link remembers this scene, it provides him the will to survive; he is reminded of the sense of his purpose and the fact that he has the ability to protect others.

Agreed. I think that was exactly what the scene in MM did: it made implications that more happened off-screen that we didn't see between Link and Zelda. The Zelda of the past would have no memories of the alternate future: this means a whole new bond was formed between them in the months between the ending of OoT and the beginning of MM. Given the content of what she actually said to him, it's not hard to assume it's romance either.

Anyways, Zelda is always important, and it's what she represents that's always present in some degree: the voice of wisdom. In LA, she was Marin, or it can be argued served as the template for the Windfish to create Marin from. In OoT and WW, she was Sheik and Tetra, and guided Link through them before he recognized her true form. So finally, in TP, while she may have given her bodily form up for a time, her spirit was alive in Midna, making her relevant. I think that's why she deserves the to be the series' heroine. I'm always amazed when I visit other sites at the lack of fondness she inspires, or just the amount of negative criticism despite her selflessness and compassion. She's Link's guide, and without her, the adventure goes nowhere.

I'm going to have to disagree on the memory thing, because of several reasons.
1) When Link is returned to being a child, his first act is look himself up and down like he is in shock...seeing himself suddenly a child again. He obviously was used to seeing his adult form.
2) The beginning of MM tells like MM itself is a legend being recounted, and within this legend, the events of OoT are mentionned. ( "Travelling through time" )
In order for the events of OoT to be known, someone would have to remember and tell them. ( Link )
3) The interview with Aonuma. He says Link had a little talk about Ganondorf with Zelda, implying Link knows perfectly well about him. The only way for this to be possible would be if Link remembered.
I think what we have here is Link has essentially been "outside of time" and is not affected, like in MM.

But anyways, carrying on:

Something I noticed. There's something special about that Link and Zelda's relationship that only otherwise Saria demonstrated: personal concern for Link and his safety, despite the situation he leaves them in. To me, that confirms that they truly love him: they don't care merely about what he can do for them.
In TP, Zelda demonstrates this too, even when Link has been a vicious growling beast. While I don't think she knows him well enough ( unlike OoT Zelda ) to truly love him, I think it's a start. Ilia too shows this, and Midna much later, when I feel she started to love him.

I never implied or said that Zelda was not important in the game. Just unneccessary. Link remembered everything from the past. He did not need to remember Zelda to play that song. As I've stated, this scene was more for the player's benefit than it was Link's. The only real benefit it served for Link was her telling him about the Goddess of Time. But after that she isn't relevant to the plot. So she isn't included or given any character development, which I don't think is because she got development in OoT. Zelda was growing up in a completely different atmosphere. She's not necessarily going to pick up the exact same traits she had when she was on the run for 7 years. Different circumstances help to mold and shape people into who they are. Zelda isn't neccessarily going to be the same Zelda she was in the Adult timeline.

But obviously she was put into the game, therefore she served some importance, despite her role being minor.

This makes me think that Link eats, breathes, and sleeps nothing else but Zelda. That his only will to survive is Zelda? I would think his will to survive stems from the fact that he likes living. Because you know, living is a good thing. It's nice to have someone to come home to, but if that's the only reason he's living, then what is he gonna do when she dies? Commit suicide? Zelda is not the center of the universe. She is apart of it. She is one of the many pieces that fits together to help make up Link's world. She represents the people, yes. But just like any ruler, she is *not* the people themselves. Link would've been a hero regardless if Zelda needed him or not. I think it is simply intrinsic of his nature and personality to help people in need, whether Zelda's there to guide him or not.

Does any of that even make sense?

Anyway, back to Twilight Princess Link and Zelda. I don't find it difficult to see a romance blossoming between the two of them behind the scenes. Link had a calling outside of Ordon and becoming mayor now. I don't think he completely walks away from his home, but his future now encompasses the rest of Hyrule as well as it's princess.

Zelda is necessary for the plot development, otherwise they wouldn't have put her in. He didn't remember the song of time, obviously, which is why he remembers when time is running out and ClockTown is about to be consumed by the moon (quote: "Memories of Zelda come rushing back to you..." "You remembered the song of time!"). Therefore, yes, it is a necessary scene. Now, on to him needing Zelda... It's not that she's his entire universe, but she is essential for his strength and courage. Without wisdom there would be no courage, and without courage there would be no wisdom. Now, although there isn't any reference to the triforce or anything of those sorts, do not forget that Termina is a parallel version of Hyrule which is still likely effected by its power. Therefore, again, Zelda is essential to the plot.

And as far as Link and Zelda in TP... I thought that they were a perfect match since the beginning. Their personalities definately go well together; when put together they are like two halves that make a whole. I suppose, though, that this could apply to all Zelda games.

I feel like I will just be repeating TM, but I agree. What mattered in that scene was that he remembered Zelda before anything else. Her memory just unlocked the solution as a side effect. If the dev's meant her and their relationship to be irrelevant, they could easily have said simply that it was the Song of Time and his quest he remembered, not her. I believe that scene was meant to demonstrate his feelings for her while advancing the plot.

It seems to be the same argument I often see regarding the last scene in OoT. People take it apart, reason how it is relevant to the plot...but that's the beauty. It doesn't have to be relevant. What matters is that Link DID return. The same goes with MM: he DID remember her.

Why do you believe she wasn't included?
I really can't see any situation how they COULD have integrated her into the plot. They could have given her a double in Termina, but all that would have done is present Link with a possible dilemma in the end when I don't believe there was meant to be one: he wasn't supposed to want to stay in Termina and not return. This was supposed to be a short trip, a side-story, not permanent.

Yes it does. What you are saying is that in essence Link is a hero, and would be one without her.

I think saying "Link eats..breathes..etc" is a little extreme, but I do believe that like any truly human hero, there are people to whom impart strength to him. I believe Zelda is the foremost one, as she's the closest to his heart. That scene in MM told me that. She gave him strength when he needed it most, and I find the most awesome heroes are the ones who fight for love as well as what's right. If Link "had a girl" she'd be it. She sent him off, and is the one believing in him behind the scenes.

Agreed. I liked what Saami said, I just feel it's a common quality of ALL the Link's: meant for bigger things although they will never forget their past. With personalities, this Zelda seemed softer, less insistant when it came to Link than others. I see them being a bit too quiet for each other, but I agree their roles will bring them together, make them one.

That scene was actually a flashback. Link had already seen Zelda before he even went to Termina. So yes that scene was unnecessary because Link had already relearned the Song of Time. (Though I believe he already knew it before he went to see Zelda). Not everyone who played MM played Ocarina of Time. Therefore it was for the player's benefit not Link's because either way, he already knew the song.

Exactly! Zelda was not included because there was no real place for her in the plot. There can be a "Legend of Zelda" without Zelda. Because the legend isn't about her, it's about Link. The first Legend of Zelda may have been about Zelda, but eventually, it grew and changed and the focus shifted from the "Princess who needs a hero" to "A humble boy becoming a great hero". That's not saying that Zelda will always be irrelevant or unneeded, because obviously she will be. She is the epitome of wisdom and Link does need her. But it is no longer Zelda's story. It's Link's.

Again I agree with gliderpilotgirl; I have to say that Zelda is essential for the plot in MM, because you see, Link really did forget how to play the Song of Time. If you think about it, there are other songs from OoT that he relearns throughout the game, which would then also fall under the same "uneccessary" category if they were for the player's benefit. Link might remember the important things during the alternate timeline, such as his encounters with Zelda and Ganondorf, but it cannot be expected that he should remember minor details relating to the songs. Link only remembers how to play the Song of Time upon remembering the memory he has of Zelda. Also, by him remembering Zelda and only Zelda, it portrays that she is the one that helped to shape him into who he is. I suppose you could say that she "awakened" the hero inside of him, rather, giving him a direction to follow. Now, before when I was saying that the game was called "Zelda" for a reason, I did not mean that it was told through her perspective (though many times I've often wondered what it would be like). It's about how the princess is seen through the eyes of the hero.

You're still misunderstanding what I'm saying.

BEFORE Link ends up in Termina, he goes to Zelda. We agree on that, yes? She gives him the Ocarina, yes? And then teaches him the Song of Time, yes? If this scene was absolutely essential for Link, explain to me how he got the Ocarina in the first place? He gave it back to Zelda at the end of OoT. But since he has it in MM before Skull Kid stole it, Link had to go back to see Zelda so she could give it to him and teach him the song. THEN he went on his journey to find Navi. He ran into Skull Kid got changed into a Deku Scrub had to wait those three days get his ocarina back and play the Song of Time.

Since you're so adamant about him forgetting the song, for the sake of the argument, let's say he did forget the song. He had already seen Zelda and had already relearned the song. So essentially, it doesn't matter if he remembers the song from the previous timeline or not. He had already seen Zelda and relearned it. The flashback is played because the player may or may not remember the button combinations on their controller to play the song. Or astonishingly enough, the player may not have played OoT. Therefore, the flashback scene was added as a way to show the combination.

All the songs that were used in OoT and reused in MM, I believe the scene serves only to show the button combinations as opposed to Link forgetting them. Because I don't think he did forget them.

And this is where I stand by my "Link's world does not revolve around Zelda" argument. And my reasons for this are stated above, so I won't get into it. But anyway back to Twilight Princess, what else is there to say?

What I'm saying is that Link forgets to play the Song of Time during his journey, which is why it is necessary for him to relearn the song a second time. Also, if it was truly for the player's benefit, then why haven't there been similar scenes in other Zelda games that are a sequal to another? If Zelda was truly unnecessary she would not have been put in the game in the first place; you cannot simply focus on the role that she plays during that scene alone as the scene most likely holds a deeper purpose than what appears on the surface, which is to be expected when interpreting Zelda games, (such as TP).

When Link remembers Zelda, not only does he remember the song, but he also remembers the fact that the Song of Time is able to manipulate time itself, which is the key to progressing through this particular game. Had Link not recalled this scene with Zelda he would not have remembered the song or the power associated with the song. Thus he, along with other people that lived in Termina, would have perished. This is due to the simple fact that Zelda bestowed on him a certain amount of the wisdom that she had, helping to guide and protect him on his journey. Therefore without the guidance of her wisdom, his courage would not have prevailed. Heroes do not always succeed; various obstacles are thrown at them and some they cannot overcome. And don't forget, Zelda sees prophetic visions that foretell the future; she obviously had a feeling that he would run into a problem that was associated with time, making it very important for her to teach him the song. Now, although this event occurred before he left, it doesn't mean that he remembers it during his journey; you tend to forget the things that you do not entirely understand until a time comes when it requires you to use it. This is exactly what happened; he ran into a problem that required this former knowledge that he had forgotten prior to that situation. Thus, it is an important scene.

And as far as the title, I'm sticking to what I had said earlier.

No hard feelings, btw. This is only a heated argument; nothing personal.

And this is where I stand by my "Link's world does not revolve around Zelda" argument. And my reasons for this are stated above, so I won't get into it. But anyway back to Twilight Princess, what else is there to say?

I don't think for one moment that Link forgot the Song of Time from his alternate future, just THIS Zelda would have no memory of teaching it to him so she did it again unknowingly.

He does remember other songs and this is evidenced by the comments about the other returning songs:
"It's Epona's Song! The song of two who are bound by trust. "
"You remembered the Song of Storms! This turbulent tune, which you've heard before.."

I guess you could say we've reached an understanding on the scene being for the player's benefit, just I also believe they wanted to remind us of Link and Zelda's relationship. Either way, considering how OoT ended, they needed this scene to tie the two together...even so, the mood change from satisfied and happy to depressed and moody seemed a bit contrived. Maybe they weren't planning a sequel when OoT was first made.

I don't think Link world revolves around Zelda but I'm pretty much repeating myself. I believe she is the most important of many to him, because she's closest to his heart.

I do agree with TM in Zelda being the woman behind the hero though: if there was someone who's both motivated and enabled him...it's her.

What's left to talk about for TP? Lots. I just find TP less interesting because as someone else wisely said, the characters were somewhat rehashes of existing ones: the situation is the same. If I am arguing against Ilia, I am arguing against Malon and Saria. If I argue for Midna or Zelda, it's the same as OoT Zelda.

For TP itself...I couldn't get past the "business face" Zelda put on...for some reason, I feel she lacked the humanity OoT Zelda had at each step. Or else she was just more reserved about it. TP Zelda seemed to see Link more as a chosen tool than a person with feelings.