Malon topic, Yeah.

Hee, ditto on the hardworking thing

But yeah, I get where you're coming from. The hero destined to save the world settling down with the farm girl has sort of a fairy tale vibe to it. I will admit, Link and Malon would make a cute couple


To paraphrase Optimus Prime, shipping is the right of all sentient beings. It's just the militant shippers (it's probably bad that I imagine them sieg heiling, isn't it?) kind of ruin things for everyone, what with their liberal use of the caps lock key and unnecessary expletives. I'm just glad that all of you here can debate with more than just the F-word!

Time to keep the debate going: this "fairy tale" idea of Malon has had me thinking....and I watched Enchanted last night: Giselle reminded me of how I've always pictured Malon...( though the girl from Enchanted is VERY annoying! )

Anyways, the starry- eyed dreamer, singing, the animals, waiting for her Prince: even in appearance she reminded of Malon. And in that, I can see where the fairy tale-ishness of Malon's plight comes in...she's Cinderella, Snow White, etc in essence. It's no wonder Malon has so many fans, she's basically a typical fairy tale heroine who everyone wants to see get her happily ever-after.

But I think the reason she comes into conflict with Zelda in debates is because we have another fairy tale going on in LoZ: the Hero and the Princess. The game itself seems to fit into the traditional "peasant nobody falls for the beautiful and wise Princess" mold, a completely different type of fairy tale. Each individual fan will pick what track they like better, thus choosing a "ship"

Personally, obviously I'm coming out in support of ZeLink over MaLink...while I love Cinderella stories as much as the next girl....LoZ as a series seems to clearly be Zelda's show: it centers around her and her Hero. If Link decided out of the blue to choose another girl and leave Zelda on her own ( after he's rescued her, etc ) something feels amiss, IMO.

Time to keep the debate going: this "fairy tale" idea of Malon has had me thinking....and I watched Enchanted last night: Giselle reminded me of how I've always pictured Malon...( though the girl from Enchanted is VERY annoying! )

Anyways, the starry- eyed dreamer, singing, the animals, waiting for her Prince: even in appearance she reminded of Malon. And in that, I can see where the fairy tale-ishness of Malon's plight comes in...she's Cinderella, Snow White, etc in essence. It's no wonder Malon has so many fans, she's basically a typical fairy tale heroine who everyone wants to see get her happily ever-after.

But I think the reason she comes into conflict with Zelda in debates is because we have another fairy tale going on in LoZ: the Hero and the Princess. The game itself seems to fit into the traditional "peasant nobody falls for the beautiful and wise Princess" mold, a completely different type of fairy tale. Each individual fan will pick what track they like better, thus choosing a "ship"

Personally, obviously I'm coming out in support of ZeLink over MaLink...while I love Cinderella stories as much as the next girl....LoZ as a series seems to clearly be Zelda's show: it centers around her and her Hero. If Link decided out of the blue to choose another girl and leave Zelda on her own ( after he's rescued her, etc ) something feels amiss, IMO.

QFT.
The Legend of Zelda has always been a fairytale... why ditch the cliche? There's a certain quote I like:
"Cliches only become cliches because there's some truth in them, and they are oft repeated and proven correct." - Adele Parks

And btw, I was watching Enchanted last night, too.... you stalker. >_>

Meh.

I suppose if we have the same taste in shipping, we may agree on movies too. I can't say I really liked the movie that much though.

Anyways- the discussion: It's funny, I've actually seen people reject Link x Zelda on the basis that it IS cliche...to me, that seems a weak argument. But speaking of cliche..the game as a genre and the general plot seems to fit ( some more than others ) but I feel that after that it breaks away from stereotypical.

Link doesn't seem to me to be stereotypical at all....I mean, he fits the "peasant boy who's a hero ( and a king ) inside" ( Aladdin as an example ) but he's not a typical "knight in shining armor"...he's not going to arrive on a white horse to sweep a helpless maiden away with his strength. He's often a boy too...not a fully-grown man of the world with all his chivarly and class.

Zelda doesn't seem the the type of Princess to want to hide away in a tower for that knight either...we've seen her as a ninja ( ok, she can be tied to Mulan on that one ) as well as a scrappy pirate/princess. She's the one with the bow and arrow at the Hero's side...not cowering behind him. I think what I may be trying to say is that okay, maybe they fit some stereotypes..but not into the roles in the type of fairytale in which Malon belongs.

Malon: She strikes me as much less versatile, and more confined to her stereotype. ( Snow White etc ) She's waiting for a Prince...but I don't think Link fits the type needed to be her hero/Prince, not the one that compliments her role perfectly. ( Like Link and Zelda do to each other ) I thought the OoT manga nailed it...how different her expectations and reality were. Even in game, she could belatedly realize that maybe Link's her Prince..but he's clearly not what she was expecting in the first place.
If her and Link did get together...some may love it, and good for them, but it means to me that two people who are truly made for each other ( Link and Zelda ) are seperated for the sake of convenience and reality...two things I don't think tLoZ will ever be bound by.

Meh.

I suppose if we have the same taste in shipping, we may agree on movies too. I can't say I really liked the movie that much though.

Anyways- the discussion: It's funny, I've actually seen people reject Link x Zelda on the basis that it IS cliche...to me, that seems a weak argument. But speaking of cliche..the game as a genre and the general plot seems to fit ( some more than others ) but I feel that after that it breaks away from stereotypical.

Link doesn't seem to me to be stereotypical at all....I mean, he fits the "peasant boy who's a hero ( and a king ) inside" ( Aladdin as an example ) but he's not a typical "knight in shining armor"...he's not going to arrive on a white horse to sweep a helpless maiden away with his strength. He's often a boy too...not a fully-grown man of the world with all his chivarly and class.

Zelda doesn't seem the the type of Princess to want to hide away in a tower for that knight either...we've seen her as a ninja ( ok, she can be tied to Mulan on that one ) as well as a scrappy pirate/princess. She's the one with the bow and arrow at the Hero's side...not cowering behind him. I think what I may be trying to say is that okay, maybe they fit some stereotypes..but not into the roles in the type of fairytale in which Malon belongs.

Malon: She strikes me as much less versatile, and more confined to her stereotype. ( Snow White etc ) She's waiting for a Prince...but I don't think Link fits the type needed to be her hero/Prince, not the one that compliments her role perfectly. ( Like Link and Zelda do to each other ) I thought the OoT manga nailed it...how different her expectations and reality were. Even in game, she could belatedly realize that maybe Link's her Prince..but he's clearly not what she was expecting in the first place.
If her and Link did get together...some may love it, and good for them, but it means to me that two people who are truly made for each other ( Link and Zelda ) are seperated for the sake of convenience and reality...two things I don't think tLoZ will ever be bound by.

>_> How do you manage to word your thoughts so perfectly. I have to agree with so much of what you said. While Link and Zelda shipping fits so perfectly into the cliche that it undoubtedly is, it still breaks away from charming/manly/valiant hero and scared/frail/hiding princess stereotypes. You are right, Zelda is at Link's side, not hiding behind him. She is almost always by his side, either physically, in disguise, or through some form of power (telepathy), aiding him in his quest.

Malon does fit the Snow White-like archetype.... I think it's sweet and adorable, but I also think that it's what keeps her and Link from being a good coupling. She wants a prince to sweep her off her feet... what she's looking for is the whole "prince charming" man, and that certainly isn't OoT!Link, not by any means. He's a bumbling kid from the forest, and while he may be a hero, he isn't prince charming. I think Malon is a wonderful, beautiful character, and I'd much rather see her paired with a valiant prince like she dreams of than with Link.

To me, it seems that, in (almost) every game, Link and Zelda are given personalities that compliment each other, which pretty much makes their shipping an obvious thing (especially in OoT).

*is flattered* Thank you!

First off: Malon...agreed. Again, he's not a very conventional hero at all...he's the boy in green.
Just one thing to get straight - although I argue heatedly against Malon and Link...I don't dislike Malon at all. Before I had even stumbled upon the world of Zelda shipping, I liked her then too: just the thought of Link forsaking Zelda for her didn't even register as plausible in my mind. It still doesn't: in my mind it's a step back for him, he might as well have never left the forest/ where-ever in that case.

When dealing with Malon's personality: I'm often struck by the amount of love for her...and how she's often preferred to Zelda in some fan circles. I suppose it's because she's very human: we get to see her show emotion such as sadness and such...she's not bound to keep her feelings to herself in favour of something bigger. Maybe it's that perceived humanity touching so many. Accessability too, any time you want to see her, she's there.
Zelda on the other hand seems to get hurt by plot sensibilities and her role: she can't be around all the time because of who she is, and how important she is to the plot. And when she is there, she's acting in duty, not just with her heart: I feel that leads some to feel she is heartless, when she's anything but. I'll always love that scene in MM because of the power of the feeling it communicates..she's just Zelda there, with Link...frankly I feel that one moment outshines any with Malon, even Cremia's heartfelt talk.

I agree on the personalities complimenting each other in Link and Zelda's case: The Link of OoT strikes me as solemn, quiet, and serious, focused on his task. While in real life I've seen some spectacular matches made with opposites ( Malon strikes me as the utter opposite: carefree, light-hearted and bubbly ) I feel that Link would gravitate more towards Zelda. This is my observation based because of Saria: she struck me as having the same type of relationship that Link would later have with Zelda, and Link's reactions indicated IMO that he loved her, truly and deeply. But it wasn't meant to be...I feel if she hadn't been eliminated, he may have returned permanently to her.

But it's more than this IMO: Link and Zelda have something that Malon lacks..whether due to her personality or it just not happening: They have depth, in everything and everywhere they relate. In multiple incarnations too...regardless of time and place.

I feel in MM the dev's tried to emulate this in Cremia..by manufacturing circumstances to make her serious, and down to earth. But I still feel while Link bonded to her as the Hero...I don't think it was as "Cremia and Link"..it was "Hero and the Victim" I don't think Malon will ever escape this.

This has actually given me an idea for a fic. I've got more to say, but I want to get started before I forget the opening lines. I'll edit this later. Thanks guys

Edit:

Okay.

Our perception of Link is so different. I have never thought of OoT Link as being overly solemn or very quiet for that matter. Sure he was shunned in the Kokiri Forest, but it would seem only by Mido. Mido was the only one who made any real effort to actually shun Link. Everyone else talked to Link and was very kind and friendly. Maybe not openly defending Link from Mido. But I highly doubt Link would've needed it. I don't think Saria was the only friend Link had in Kokiri Forest. If that were the case, I don't think the others would've been so openly concerned about why Link was leaving the forest and when he would be coming back after he grew up.

With all that said, I've always seen Link as openly goofy. A real people person. Someone who made friends easily and knew how to laugh and have a good time. I've said this before, Link met (not to mention saved) a lot of people during his adventure. So I don't think he ever really had time to be very lonely. Maybe every now and then when he realized that he was alone during his travels. But I don't think it would last for very long. Because he's always being thrust into something new.

With OoT Zelda once again I've never thought of her as being a "woe is me" kind of girl. I think of her as being courageous and spunky and outgoing. I mean the woman became Sheik and hid in plain sight. (Though that point is invalid for me since for me Sheik =/= Zelda. But for the sake of canon...I digress).

But if Link were the solemn type, I would think he would keep people at arms length. He knows he has to walk the path of the hero. With that in mind, I don't think he would really want to form close attachments to people because of what he knew it would cost. Like most heroes, I think he would know falling in love would be something dangerous. He undoubtedly has other enemies aside from Ganondorf, be they petty thieves or wizards like Vaati. And I think Link knew and realized if he formed attachments and fell in love, he could very well be putting that person, whoever they may be, into danger. And what if something were to happen to his loved one? I highly doubt he'd be able to forgive himself.

Now to be completely and utterly honest, the reason I don't ship Zelink in OoT is because I never really had much love for Zelda. She was just one of those characters that rubbed me the wrong way. Kind of like Ruto and Navi...Eventually though, Navi grew on me. And being around here and seeing the different aspects of Zelda, outside of her dynamic in the game has really helped shape a better opinion of her for me. I still prefer Malink in OoT. But Zelink's charm is really starting to grow on me. Even if it is rather depressing.

Okay..let's see if I can make this quote thingy work:

Very true...and I feel trying to argue that one person's perception is more correct than another is futile: we ARE Link, and the creator's have made it clear that his personality and words are to be displayed by us, outside of a very basic mold. ( Courageous, etc )

My perception in this sees Link as "the boy without a fairy"...and that fact would isolate him..and make him more a loner. It's like in elementary school...nobody wants to be that kid who doesn't have the "in-thing"..I can see Navi being a way for him to gain acceptance, and listening to the remarks of the kids when Navi arrives...it seems to me a very big deal: he's now a true Kokiri and he fits in. I don't think the other kids would necessarily openly reject him persay..but he may end up on the fringes socially. Especially if the leader has aggression towards him.
Another reason why I think this? In the future it is said the only one who defended Link from Mido's spiteful blame was Saria...if these were truly Link's friends..she wouldn't have been alone. That speaks to me of shallow friendships on their part.
So anyways..this lack of deep connections to me means loneliness. Something to which the isolated Zelda could easily relate.

In my perception...Link may have saved all these people...but how many saw him as more than just their Hero? He's more than a title...just like Zelda. And when he packs up and leaves these people..they rejoice for his deeds. In the end of OoT..a massive party takes place...but Link is noticeably missing. Does it seem to dampen their spirits? No. Same with MM. What I am trying to say is I feel Link is more than that..and he needs to be seen as more than just someone's hero. I remember in TP how Renado bowed to Link and acknowledged him a hero...and so did the Ordon kids, who knew him their whole lives. Link looked awkward, and I couldn't blame him. He's now bigger than life in their eyes.

And that's EXACTLY how I see him, or how he'd want to be. But he's got a heart..and I feel the plight of victims would break through that. I see Link as a man who's seen some terrible things...things that would make a lesser person tremble and scream..and he's strong because of it. But I don't see him as the type who will open to everyone and risk scaring them off...Zelda is a kindred spirit and exception. A princess with the heart of a warrior...I truly think she is the only one who can handle who he is and who he'd completely open up to. I use the beginning of MM as an indicator of this. I left that scene with the impression that she intimately knew him..and he'd given her that.
Malon strikes me as too naive and sheltered to handle his darkness. That doesn't make her a lesser person at all...just IMO, she's innocent. I don't feel Link would desire to open up and spoil that. I never saw any indication he did so in game either..nothing about him as a person ever came up...they focused on her.
I feel this would create an invisible but very real barrier between them and greatly hinder them forming a romantic ( and therefore emotionally intimate ) bond.
In terms of danger..it's a valid point, but IMO, it works against Malon. She's defenseless..and IMO, doesn't possess the heart to challenge the evil fearlessly on her own, unlike Zelda. I DO see Sheik as merely a reflection of who Zelda is inside...and she's an equal to Link in my eyes.

Fair enough. It's kind of funny, no characters really rubbed the wrong way at all in OoT, even Ruto. She was spoiled sure, but her courage and selflessness redeemed her in my eyes as an adult. I liked Malon a great deal originally...but I never considered her a rival to Zelda in terms of Link's affections.

I never said that the relationship Link had with the other Kokiri outside of Saria was deep or meaningful. Though zelda.com says that the Kokiri were friends of Link. But they had to endure bullying as well. Saria was probably the only one of the Kokiri who wasn't afraid/intimidated (or what have you) of Mido. And that probably had something to do with his crush on her.

Darunia is a good example of someone seeing him as more than a hero. He and Link were Sworn Brothers and he even gave his son Link's namesake, which suggested to me that they had formed a fairly deep bond. Ruto as well. There really is no telling how long Link and Ruto spent in Jabu Jabu. I think she may have taken it to the extreme by proposing. But I think some affection for him developed.

And I think this could be applied to Malon. Considering how she is not the main character, like Zelda, we aren't giving much to go on about their relationship, outside of they are great friends. And that's what I like exploring in my fanfic. Giving Malon depth and showing different aspects of how Link and she interacted. And since we don't know that much about Malon, I can't really say how she would handle dark Link. Which is something I would like to explore (another plot bunny. Thank you.).

Though the same could be said about Link and Zelda. I never saw much of a relationship outside of Hero and Princess. Of course I wasn't really looking for one other than that. I think Link knew what he had to do. And he served Zelda out of a sense of duty. But like gliderpilotgirl said, because Link has a heart, I think eventually it became more than just duty. For both of them. Though I can't really say I think something other than that came from their mutual want to save Hyrule.

Touche. Alright...outside of some the Sages and Zelda then.

Hmmm...see, I never saw the "great friends" bit. The reason I say this is because I judge this sort of thing based on the words...or rather, by reading between the lines. IMO, the interaction with Malon never hit anything more than surface deep: she never gives any indication she truly knows him, and to me this was absolutely confirmed by the fact she didn't recognize him after 7 years. When I read between the lines with her...I see a friendly girl interacting with a boy who she thinks may be cute...and as an adult Link is a friendly stranger, than a hero.

Zelda on the other hand..the language is intimate. "I hoped you would return.." and even when she is again a child in MM: "I feel like I have known you forever..I shall never forget the days we spent together..and I believe in my heart that a day will come when I shall meet you again"..reading between the lines indicates he is truly special to her, someone she deeply knows. If I read between the lines with Saria, it's the same thing, and to a lesser extent with Darunia and Ruto. With Malon, the contact is mostly superficial...they could have done more with her.

I'm just going off of what I saw and felt...but there's no reason to stifle the imagination. This is my impression, on which I based my opinions.
Same goes for how I feel Malon would deal with darkness. The closest example I can think of is how Ilia would potentially react to Link's wolf form. She's got Saria in her, and I believe that part of her may be able to overcome some of it...but can you imagine how Ilia would react confronted with the darkness in Link?

And this is where I feel Sheik comes in...despite Sheik's professionalism, I feel certain moments betrayed that more was going on. Take the scene at Lake Hylia...Link is staring at the Lake, deep in thought ( possibly about Zelda, as Ruto just spoke about her to him ) and Zelda/Sheik stares at him as though conflicted.
And Zelda herself...reading between the lines plus some observation reveals much IMO. When she says "it's over" and Link turns to her..I think they may have kissed if Navi had not butted in. The ending seemed to me the biggest proof...he returned to her after being told to live in freedom...it was sentimental, not something I'd take as born of duty.
In contrast, Malon's last appearance is in the future, singing with Epona...she appears oblivious to the fact Link is missing but Epona isn't...it would have been a simple matter to show her concerned but she's not. ( as Mido was about Saria )

I would think they had to be great friends, as Malon taught Link her mother's song, something I would think would be very intimate. And she let Link keep her favorite horse. I think doing something like that would require a deep friendship, not something shallow or casual.

And Saria had been missing far longer than Link. Perhaps Malon was unaware of Link even being gone until later, when he didn't come back. Besides, Epona wouldn't go into the Castle Town. I don't think it unlikely that Link left Epona at Lon Lon Ranch and went to Castle Town on foot. This was his last battle after all. He had no idea if/when he would be coming back.

I wouldn't think it's very intimate, as if it was, she'd remember teaching it to Link.
As an adult: if you go play Epona's Song to her before challenging Ingo, you get this response.

She still doesn't let on that she has any idea who he is: that doesn't happen until after you win Epona..at which point she states she thought it was you/recognized you because Epona did.

To me, that says that she had a passing acquaintance with him..and the only thing that stuck in her mind permanently was Epona..because Epona's reaction to Link was unusual.
Overall, I feel Malon is a friendly and trusting person, but I don't think it's specific to Link. I don't doubt that they were friends....good maybe pre-MM, but the markers that draw my attention to romance I feel are absent..or not overwhelming, like the end of OoT and beginning of MM with Zelda. Friendship is one thing...Romance is completely different.

With the ending...my point is merely that the dev's left us with a heart-wrenching parting with Link and Zelda....and the last ( and most emphatic scene ) was of none but them: I don't think they were pointing towards Malon x Link. Not to say you can't as there's no rules, but I'm sticking towards what I feel the game made clear.

That's more than once I've brought up MM though...Saami..what are your thoughts on Romani/Cremia? To be completely honest with you, I saw more danger points for a Zelinker with them than with Malon. Link was far from home and Zelda, and Romani was most certainly interested in him. I don't think Cremia was as it's fact she was in love with Kafei ( the scenes that confirm it are often missed, but very clear )
but when she hugged Link, it could be construed as attraction on his part.

Yes, but Malon also thought Link was a child from the forest. And normally Kokiri children either don't leave or die if they do. She probably wasn't expecting Link to grow up or age.

With that said, Malon sang that song all the time. People liked to listen to her sing. That didn't necessarily mean she taught it to them. But she taught it to Link. I would think that this was one of the few things she had left of her mother. And I don't think she would want to share something that was probably very precious to her so eagerly with another person without forming something other than a casual attachment.

I don't really have an opinion on Romani/Cremia as I haven't actually met them in the game yet. But judging from what I read of them, Romani may be the most likely canidate, since Cremia is in love with Kafei. But the Malinker in me says that Romani's attraction only served to remind him how much he missed Hyrule and what (and who) he left behind.

It's not really clear if a way back to Termina is present (right..?). So I don't think something other than a mutual crush could develop.

EXACTLY. A precious song like that she didn't teach to many people, so if she did teach Link and it was a rare event..you think she'd remember. Regardless...if you have a dear childhood friend whom you truly know well....ten years can go by and you'll still remember them. I know this from personal experience..you don't lose it. The fact she's treating him as a stranger means they had a casual attachment, or she's got a short memory.

I agree Romani's more likely, but Link doesn't seem to show any noticeable attraction. Nothing out of the ordinary, despite the fact she's far more blatant than Malon ever was. In fact, she's almost on par with Ruto.
In terms of her character..it's hard to say. The dev's told us MM would give us a better look into the lives of OoT characters, but there are distinct differences between the Terminian and Hyrulean counterparts, although similarities exist.
Romani is far more brash when it comes to her attraction to Link, and just her personality in general: she's more extroverted than Malon. She also makes assumptions, and will get carried away with herself. It's not hard to tell her older sister has her hands full with her...and she's much more tomboyish than Malon appeared to be.
Cremia strikes me as weary...mature and loaded with the cares of life. While Malon appears to be somewhat carefree, Cremia has had a big taste of reality and her situation. ( She's managing the ranch on her own as her father died )

I can only go so far in describing them, but suffice it to say, they are not Malon. No more than Anju is the Cucco Lady or Lulu is Ruto. In terms of love...true love is loving the person someone is...themself. I think it's a bad assumption to assume Link would love Romani based on her physical similarity to Malon. ( and vice versa )

Same goes for Cremia. She gave him a big hug as a heartfelt thank you to someone who helped her out when she was down...but it had to do with her situation and Link's deeds..not as a woman loving a man. Link felt "warm and fuzzy". Okay...he had loving feelings. But I would defy someone to find any little boy who wouldn't react like that after being hugged into the chest of a beautiful and thankful older girl.

Have you watched the beginning cutscene with Link remembering Zelda? To me, it seemed clear Link held great feelings for Zelda. The language she used and the cutscene used is traditionally romantic in nature. So while Romani may look like Malon, Link hasn't forgotten Zelda either, despite her absence.

Actually, I believe the portal to Termina still existed, but the ending didn't give me any reason to think anything special existed between Romani and Link.

It had been 10 years since someone visited. And before Link even returned, Malon lived with Ingo who had chased off her father, taken over her home, and in all respects was a cruel person (though I believe his cruelty wasn't limited to just the animals). And so I think it plausible for Malon to just be happy to see face other than Ingo's. The first thing on her mind may not have been "have I met him before"? as opposed to "Thank the Goddesses a visitor is here". And once Link left to free the ranch, Malon was left to brood over who this visitor was. And once she saw Epona respond to him, the realization dawned on her.

Or something. I hope that makes sense .

I have seen the scene between Link and Zelda in MM. But since I don't really see anything other than a deep friendship between the two, I didn't see any romantic overtones. If I were a deep personal friend of Link, I would pray for his safe return as well.

As for the characters in Termina, I would think that they would represent what the characters were like in the child time line. Circumstances were different because Link and Zelda stopped Ganondorf before he could take over. So that would mean the people had to grow and change in a peaceful world and therefore became different people as opposed to the people they were in the adult time line...if that even make sense.