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Link x Zelda > Twilight Princess > I hate Midna

Posted by: Elyse Nov 26 2008, 06:22 AM

Well, actually I don't hate Midna the character. It's the LinkXMidna pairing I dislike because unlike other alternate pairings (LinkXMalon, LinkXSaria) this one actually has evidence in the game to back it up.

I believe Link has shown more affection towards her than Zelda not just in TP but more than he has for her(Zelda) in other past Zelda games. He smiles a lot with her, cradles her in his arms and looks at her lovingly, reaches out to her when she sacrifices herself and mourns over her "death" etc.

. One could say he sees her as a very close friend(however one can always argue that with the Zelink hints in previous games) but his reaction at the end of the game when Midna reveals her true form he seems fall in love with her. He runs off and leaves Zelda behind and at first he is stunned but then he smiles at her(Midna) in a way that he never has towards Zelda before. He is literally awe struckin by her and his face practically glows!

I am a huge Zelink fan so I really hate how Nintendo all of a sudden introduces this new girl who steals Link's heart away from Zelda. I personally didn't see any Zelink romantic hints in Twilight Princess at all. Has Nintendo ever officially commented on Link's relationship with Midna? Are they just close friends or potential lovers?
LinkXMidna--->

P.S I apologize to anyone on here who likes the character Midna but I really dislike Link and Midna as a couple.

Posted by: Saami Nov 26 2008, 06:44 PM

So...you don't like Link/Midna because the devs made Link like her? That's kinda odd, I guess.

Umm...Well I honestly can't think of anything to say but: Calm down. This isn't serious business.

Posted by: Twilight Mistress Nov 27 2008, 01:16 AM

Well, you can take the game literally, I suppose, but you could also look at it from a metaphorical perspective. Fact is, Midna is really the shadow of Zelda. Why have I come to this conclusion, you might ask? Well, it's simple really.

Zelda

- from the realm of light
- Princess
- is also referred to, in the beginning by Midna, as the Twilight Princess
- wears a cape similar to the one that Midna wears when she is in her true form
- the picture in the front of the instruction booklet presents both Zelda and Midna's side profiles looking in opposite directions of the other (Zelda is looking up while Midna is looking down)
- both have somewhat similar traits
- Zelda is able to channel her energy into Midna
- at the end of the game, Zelda rides Epona with Link, representing the light version of Midna riding on Link as a wolf

Midna

- from the realm of twilight
- Princess
- referred to as the twilight princess
- again, the picture could be considered as a strong hint that points out the relationship between Zelda and Midna
- posseses some of Zelda's traits
- Midna rides on Link's back as a wolf, representing the shadow version of Zelda riding along with Link on his horse

Also, the mirror is another indication that Midna is merely a reflection of what Zelda would be in the shadow realm.

Aside from that, Link does show affection towards Zelda as well. Link likely only thinks of Midna as a close friend, because of everything that they endured together. Zelda is still Link's potential love interest. First of all, upon meeting Zelda in his altered state, Link takes an immediate liking to her; he is able to sense her personality because animals are able to pick up on things that humans are prone to miss. Midna also giggles when Link growls at Zelda and then rolls her eyes when Link stops and walks over to Zelda, eyes fixated on her. This is obviously an indication that Midna feels that Link took on an immediate liking to Zelda.

You could also say that the way Link reacted over Zelda's lifeless body is evidence that there is more than just friendship involved; had it have been anyone else he would have thought about what to do before jumping in without thinking. If you recall, he cared about the little blonde haired boy but he thought about what he would do first. Also, what about when Zelda and Link look at each other before they were interupted by Ganondorf's spirit? Or when they held hands? Or when they were shown together on horseback? Another thing is that the end of the game when Midna parts from the realm of light and the mirror shatters, the scene ends with the shattered mirror and Link and Zelda standing side by side, likely metaphorically indicating that Link was destined to be beside Zelda and her alone. The last scene also ends with the castle throne room after we are shown the scene of Link leaving Ordon. It can then be concluded that Link's destination was the castle so that he could be with Zelda.

Posted by: gliderpilotgirl Nov 27 2008, 01:38 AM

I agree with you. As much as I was annoyed they chose to make another character rather than just sticking to Zelda, Midna really can be called a "shadow form" of Zelda. She's like a dark, poisoned and warped form of Zelda..how Zelda may have turned out in her circumstances. Midna represents her people, and their bitterness, abandonment and hard feelings towards the light worlders is reflected in her.

As far as love goes, love is loving the person who someone is. What Link may love about her, her courage, strength, drive and heart ( once you get past the bitterness ) is to be found in Zelda, just the same.
Furthur comparisons: Compare Midna's personality to Tetra, who is also Zelda. They have the same sarcastic and rude mannerisms initially, but are softened by Link's gentle heart.
Even farther back, compare Sheik to Midna. Both are a "shadow form of Zelda", different yet still the same.

Anyways, Midna is gone though in the end: Link will never end up with her. While Zelda is not an exact copy, if he were to seek her wisdom for direction, he might find the same that he loved of Midna in her.

Posted by: MalonsLover Nov 27 2008, 02:05 AM

I see TP Link being attracted to Zelda but I don't see Zelda having any interest in him whatsoever romantic wise. As for Midna, for me it was a love/hate thing thats sort of complicated to explain. If there was more evidence to TP LinkxZelda as being just formal aquaintances I would definitely choose her over Illia thats for sure, despite lack of in game evidence. But don't you guys/girls think TP Link would go on some first love only love type thing and just keep mourning over the loss of Midna like most Midna fangirls believe??

Posted by: Twilight Mistress Nov 27 2008, 05:03 AM

The way I see it, Midna and TP Link had more of a relationship that Oot Link had with Navi. Oot Link loved Navi, but not in a romantic way. There are different types of love for different reasons. We, as human beings, have the capactity to love many people in different ways. Romantic love involved that spiritual connection where the couple feels as though they cannot be seperated, where they love the other unconditionally and understand each other on all levels; they are two halves that together make a whole. Close friendships are those that are considered companions, those that we can depend on to share experiances with and to lean on whenever life depends.

Zelda does display feelings towards Link, immediately in fact. I mean, she's the only one that wasn't afraid of him (besides Midna) in his wolf form; because of her wisdom, she was able to sense something different about Link. Don't forget, Zelda is able to pick up on things quicker than others, as portrayed in previous versions of the series. In Oot, for instance, when she meets Link in the courtyard she said that she sensed something eerie about Ganondorf. Besides that, at the end of the game they not only exchange meaningful glances before they're interupted by Ganondorf's spirit, but she holds out her hand when they're in the light temple (which he willingly accepts). She also places a hand on his forearm from behind when they're in the field, a definate hint that there's romance hidden somewhere between them. Besides... How can you miss the fact that they were on horseback together; that would have to be the cutest scene for those two! I don't know about you guys, but it sure provided a vivid romantic image for me. ^^

Posted by: MalonsLover Nov 27 2008, 05:22 AM

Actually Link holds out his hand first...not Zelda. She is the one that accepts his help not the other way around. Maybe there is hope for TP LinkxZelda. But to me TP Link and Zelda are probably the least romantically compatible of all the Zelink pairings. Too much Link as chivalry perfect gentleman admirer from afar written all over it if you ask me. Its more believable with OOT, WW, and especially AOL LinkxZelda for sure. TP is so LinkxMidna sugar coated I was actually wanting Zelda to have more moments that were more than just a friendly admiration for Link's courage.

Posted by: Twilight Mistress Nov 27 2008, 11:48 AM

Again, Midna is like Navi in the sense that both Links value them as close friends, due to everything that they endured with them. That doesn't mean that Zelda lost her potential to be Link's love interest, however, being that there are multiple scenes that point out otherwise. You just have to read between the lines and not take things so literally. I already highlighted certain scenes in my previous post that can pose as evidence for Zelda looking at Link as a potential love interest (and Zelda as a love interest for Link). When they hold hands it breaks away from the formal setting that Zelda was at first hiding behind, revealing the fact that there is something more between the two; her barriers fall and they practically peer into each other's soul, gazing into each other's eyes until the scene fades. Actually, in one of the interviews shortly after TP's release in a Gamepro magazine (or was it Nintendo Power..?), the game director stated that there was something more between Link and Zelda than what was literally seen in the game. He said certain things took place between Link and Zelda that occurred off-screen and that it takes a close eye to notice.

user posted image

Posted by: KokirianClockwork Nov 27 2008, 05:08 PM

That screenshot is amongst my all time favorites!

I do also hate the fact that some fangirls say Link will eternally mourn over Midna and put all his energy into finding her again.
That's just NOT like him.
Seriously, dépendant affectif? No way. DX
(Excuse my French... how do we say... Those people who just can't accept someone leaving them no matter what?)
It even annoys me a bit with ZeLink fics, imagine MidLink ones.
I liked Midna a lot. I impulsively went ''zomg o haaaaiiii!! *waves*'' the second time I started playing TP again, but I can't see Link with her.
She was fun, helpful, had a nice heart hidden behind that little demonic attitude, what's not to like? And she looked wonderful when the curse broke.
He thought she was dead, but not only was she alive, but she was also freed from the curse. I can't imagine Link doing something else than give a big smile that makes his face shine like a thousand suns.
I still can't imagine him with her.
As for Ilia I didn't hate her, -omg I kinda liked her-, but since she's Link's ticket to normality, I'd rather not think about it either.
And unless something else happens, Zelda would be giving all her energy to reconstruct Hyrule. Even if she was madly in love with Link, her people come first.
I do have some hope that, like OoT and WW, TP gets somekind of sequel... with more Zelda.
TP Zelda needs more appearances.

But I'm not holding my breath.

Posted by: Hylian Princess Nov 28 2008, 01:03 AM

Illia: Annoying, bossy girl who just wants things to be as normal and perfect for her as possible. I don't like Illilink because then Link would go back to his boring, normal life... Sure, I think that'll be kinda like a happy ever after, but it doesn't suit the series much.

Midna: Hot little imp/princess who has a heart and an attitude... I agree with Clockwork, what's not to like? I just don't like Midlink... I don't see it at all.

Zelda: I feel the love (at least I think I do

)

But, c'mon people who are complaining to the developpers... I mean, it's the developpers jobs to make us debate and go crazy... It's what keeps the series alive and popular! Wonder why people keep coming here? It's because it's interesting. Nerve-wrecking at times, of course, but that's what keeps Zelda's fire going!

Like FFVII, I hope they're gonna make a re-make for TP... They could've done so much better! I suppose they got a bit carried away with the wii factor that they kinda shifted their focus around.

Posted by: MalonsLover Nov 28 2008, 02:53 AM

Since the mirror shattered LinkxMidna is not happening anytime soon. Many Midna fans seem to really believe that the ending meant that Link rode off and left Ordon to live the life as a Hero in the service of the Hyrule Court and just work with Zelda in hopes of helping him get reunited with Midna somehow. Though I agree with TM that the big OOT nostalgia/royal ball dance scene had a hint of romance in it but compared to the LinkxMidna hints LinkxZelda moments are like formal aquaintances so far. There is actually more to support LinkxHena in a way, but TP was overwhelmingly LinkxMidna IMO

Posted by: Elyse Nov 28 2008, 04:48 AM

QUOTE (Twilight Mistress @ Nov 27 2008, 01:16 AM)

That's true and isn't Midna's Theme actually Zelda's Lullaby played in reverse

"The way I see it, Midna and TP Link had more of a relationship that Oot Link had with Navi. Oot Link loved Navi, but not in a romantic way."

I agree. Link might have loved Midna but maybe just not in love with her. I remember reading on the internet that in an interview Bill Trinen said that Midna and Ilia were only close friends with Link and there was no romantic connection between either of them.

"Actually, in one of the interviews shortly after TP's release in a Gamepro magazine (or was it Nintendo Power..?), the game director stated that there was something more between Link and Zelda than what was literally seen in the game. He said certain things took place between Link and Zelda that occurred off-screen and that it takes a close eye to notice."

Is this the quote you're talking about?:
EGM: We also have to wonder after the ending: Are Link and Princess Zelda ever gonna hook up? It is a Teen-rated game, after all....

BT: [Laughs] Well, you have to wonder, how unrequited is it really? Just because a scene doesn't necessarily happen on screen before your eyes, that doesn't necessarily mean the scene has never happened.

EGM: You just totally revealed that Link and Zelda are having premarital sex.

BT: You know, like a lot of times a book will end, and the ending is kinda left up for the reader to interpret. You have to fill in the holes yourself.

So according to Nintendo, Midna and Link were really close friends with no romantic connection and things may have happened between Link and Zelda behind the scenes that we didn't see. Trinen's answer was vague but I think it's the closest Nintendo has come to confirming LinkXZelda. He didn't dismiss their relationship as a friendship or simply "business" nor did he deny a relationship.

Posted by: Alantie Nov 28 2008, 04:51 AM

When I first started playing TP, I was highly irritated by Midna. But as time went on and she started to let her guard down around Link I became more fond of her. And after the whole touching scene with Zelda giving everything to save her. . . it just made my heart hurt. I truly felt for her.

And I agree with what everyone else has been saying. Midna is essentially Zelda's dark half, her 'Sheik' persona in this game, much the way that Zant is Ganondorf's Twilight counterpart. So there's no reason for me to rehash what people have already said except to say: if Link loves Midna romantically, the probablity of him loving Zelda who is her mirror reflection is just as high, not to mention that Zelda was at one with Midna for a large part of the game and therefore. . . well, I'm sure you can see where I'm going with this.

I also agree with Midna fulfilling the Navi role in this game, or the partner aspect. In every game that Link has a partner, such as Navi, Tatl, the King of Red Lions, and others, he always parts with them at the end. I think it's fairly symbolic really, showing how Link is able to stand on his own without a guide following him around everywhere.

I'll always be a Zelink shipper, but Midna/Link isn't so bad, primarily since it practically is Zelink anyway. The fact of the matter is, it's hard to say anyway that what Link feels for Midna is anything beyond friendship. He goes running towards her at the end- well, of course! He thought she was dead, she's a close friend and he cares for her. It would be pretty cold for him not to. And him holding her- she was unconsious and overwhelmed from the magic she had just used. Was he supposed to let her lie on the ground?

Posted by: MalonsLover Nov 28 2008, 04:52 AM

INTERVIEW QUOTE: BT: You know, like a lot of times a book will end, and the ending is kinda left up for the reader to interpret. You have to fill in the holes yourself.

So according to the interview if I choose to imagine TP Link to be romantically involved with a random Hyrule town girl then its OK right??

Posted by: KokirianClockwork Nov 30 2008, 04:56 AM

Of course it's ok. But that doesn't make it true.
As long as if doesn't contradict anything in the game.
Thing about those books and videogames though is really that to make the characters feel real, you have to leave them some privacy. Telling -everything- ruins the ''reality'' factor.
Even with close friends, you'll never know everything about their feelings or about what's happened/what will happen to them.
Doesn't mean you can imagine just about anything about them either.

And I just had this weird image in my mind...
Link X Zelda..
Dark Link X Midna.

Should I be laughing?

Posted by: MalonsLover Dec 1 2008, 03:17 AM

I think Dark LinkxZelda is the best pairing hands down. Zelda needs a real man in her life not Link.

But when it comes to Midna true I agree with the already mentioned similar comparisons to Navi and Tatl for sure. But we have to remember that OOT/MM Link has the heart and mind of a child. TP Link has the heart and mind of a teenage boy, so more likely his feelings were more romantic for Midna than OOT/MM Link's child like emotional attachment to Navi.

Posted by: gliderpilotgirl Dec 1 2008, 03:45 AM

QUOTE (MalonsLover @ Dec 1 2008, 03:17 AM)

I think Dark LinkxZelda is the best pairing hands down. Zelda needs a real man in her life not Link.

I'm sorry...but a real man? I know of few men that are manlier than Link...there's a reason he has women flocking around him. This whole idea of macho, tough men that can't show emotion or listen to women...it's garbage. Anyways, carrying on:

As much as I like Zelda, I like Midna too. But only because Midna IS essentially Zelda. I think the reason Midna was eliminated in the end was because of this...they couldn't have two princesses running around.

Posted by: MalonsLover Dec 1 2008, 04:05 AM

I only meant Dark Link is probably more of a man than Link. Anyway I was just kidding. But I sort of agree with you. I just believe Midna was eliminated to give the Zelda and Illia fans some hope. If you want to believe that Link will stay loyal and true to Midna thats fine but the very open interpretation of TP is anyones guess. Despite TP being the most non LinkxZelda game of all time Zelda still has a chance. But it seems Link would have to go through a lot of adjustments in adapting to courtly protocol and actually growing up to be a man personality wise. Then I believe Link can woo Zelda but it would probably be over an extended period of time before the relationship can grow from the dreaded formal aquaintances. But TP LinkxZelda still has a chance.

Posted by: Alantie Dec 1 2008, 04:17 AM

*stares at MalonsLover* You're bashing Link again. If I have to ask you again not to, I'll suspend your posting ability for two weeks. I'm tired of having to ask you the same thing over and over. Just because you say you're 'just kidding' doesn't make it okay. You know saying something like that is going to upset people here, and that's exactly why you're saying it.

Just because Link isn't an arrogant jerk/snot who's full of himself and feels the need to continually prove his manhood doesn't mean he isn't manly. Freak.

Anyway. I liked Midna, but she had to leave. They made it clear throught the game that people from the Twilight Realm and the Realm of Light weren't meant to exist in the same world. Not only that, but Link wouldn't have been able to really live in Midna's world anymore than she could live in Hyrule. She's needed in her world to rule and lead her people.

Posted by: MalonsLover Dec 1 2008, 04:25 AM

For some reason Midna reminds me of Ruto with a bossy domineering ruler type personality. IMO LinkxMidna was never built to last long term anyway with clashing personalities and the long distance aspect that you mentioned.

Posted by: Love_of_Zelda Dec 1 2008, 02:16 PM

QUOTE (MalonsLover @ Nov 30 2008, 10:25 PM)

She certainly was bossy and domineering at the beginning, which is why her growth as a character througout the game - and catalyzed by Zelda's sacrificial death - was so poignant. I should think that Midna's initial unlikability was intentional because they wanted to demonstrate a growth pattern, which is common in fairytale motifs, which was the entire series of LoZ is about. Quite frankly, it could be easily argued that Midna is "the other side of the coin" to Zelda, meaning that Zelda and Midna were one spirit and two different bodies (with the exception of Zelda releasing her spirit into Midna's halfway through the game). It comes down to the yin-yang argument, which would make good sense since LoZ comes out of Japan. Dark Link and Link can also be talked about in the yin-yang sense.

Posted by: Saami Dec 1 2008, 04:49 PM

Hm I have to honestly admit I wasn't a great big huge fan of Midna. Her attitude really bothered me, how she was always so nonchalant about things. But then I think she rather grew on me the more I played TP. I think her attitude really gave her more character. Made her seem multifaceted. I honestly don't think she was anything like she was when Link met her prior to TP. There had to be something about her that made her appealing to the other Twili. Otherwise, I think they would have rejected her too.

And I really think Link and Midna grew to have something. Maybe it was more than a friendship, maybe it wasn't. I don't really know for sure. But I do know that if Link did love Midna, I don't think he would settle for anybody else. Not even Zelda, even if she is the light version of Midna. I think that would be the same as settling for an identical twin because the other doesn't want/can't be with you. It's unfair to all involved you know? I would want Link to be with Zelda because he loves her as an individual. Not because she reminds him of the girl he can't have, ya know?

Posted by: Toxo Dec 1 2008, 06:41 PM

QUOTE (Saami @ Dec 1 2008, 06:49 PM)

But I do know that if Link did love Midna, I don't think he would settle for anybody else. Not even Zelda, even if she is the light version of Midna. I think that would be the same as settling for an identical twin because the other doesn't want/can't be with you. It's unfair to all involved you know? I would want Link to be with Zelda because he loves her as an individual. Not because she reminds him of the girl he can't have, ya know?

I agree 100% on that one. He may be attracted to Zelda for the similarities, but he should love Zelda for being herself and not a shadow of his past love.

QUOTE (Love_of_Zelda)

It comes down to the yin-yang argument, which would make good sense since LoZ comes out of Japan. Dark Link and Link can also be talked about in the yin-yang sense.

I don't intend to be a wiseass, but I'd like to point out that Tao (+ ying/yang-symbol) is a Chinese religion. This doesn't mean the developers didn't mean it that way, though. Many take influences from foreign cultures and religions.

Posted by: MalonsLover Dec 1 2008, 08:01 PM

Yeah..I totally agree on the yin yang references when it comes to Zelda and Midna, Dark Link and Good Link. Since the mirror shattered we can never know if the LinkxMidna relationship would have been a long term or short term romantic relationship. But I am sure Link would be going through a period of heartbreak and would need to confide in someone for comfort and its definitely not TP Zelda. Sure Zelda would be the one Link needs to go to for stoicly sage wisdom and guidance in being the chosen Hero of Hyrule. But in matters of the heart, TP Link would more likely find solace with Illia due to the closer childhood friendship/relationship with her.

With that said I still believe that the closer friendship does not always guarantee romance/mariage. As you know I use this POV to support Malon over OOT Zelda and ironically its the same POV I use for TP Zelda over Illia. Anyway I agree with that TP Link should love Zelda for herself and not because she reminds him of Midna. Thats rather shallow if you ask me for Link to force himself to love Zelda as a substitute for the love he shared with Midna IMO.

Posted by: Toxo Dec 1 2008, 08:26 PM

QUOTE (MalonsLover @ Dec 1 2008, 10:01 PM)

But I am sure Link would be going through a period of heartbreak and would need to confide in someone for comfort and its definitely not TP Zelda. Sure Zelda would be the one Link needs to go to for stoicly sage wisdom and guidance in being the chosen Hero of Hyrule.

I don't think that's necessarily the case. Zelda and Link have been through the same things, even if for a short period of time in Zelda's own body. She was beside him through half of his adventures inside Midna, too. Even though they're not the closest people in the TP universe, I don't see why they couldn't open up to each other and support the other in time of need.

Posted by: MalonsLover Dec 1 2008, 08:33 PM

Once Link and Zelda go from formal aquaintances to at least becoming friends you might be right. At the moment, I just don't get the sense that Link has a closer emotional bond with Zelda as he does with Illia and Midna at all.

Posted by: KokirianClockwork Dec 2 2008, 12:11 AM

He likes her, he finds her wise, selfless, beautiful. But I think he also loves her as his princess, as the ''official'' protector of Hyrule. He'll need to spend more time with her (knowing it's her, mind you) in order to fall in love.
If anything happens between TP Link and Zelda, that'll be the hottest couple in Hyrule. Tee-hee.

Rationally I have to use a lot of imagination to actually see them hook up, but when reason isn't invited to my party, they both look awesome together.
And we all already know they do enjoy each other's company anyway. That's a good start.

As for Dark Link being a real man, it's funny because I only see him as a shadow. A personality-less anti-person compared to the fun, teasing Midna.
All I can see him think is ''muah-ha, kill. Muah-ha-ha!''
It's just the thought of Midna being Zelda's ''shadow self'' that made me make the link (no pun intended), but Dark Link is truly not good enough for Midna.
She'll get bored with that guy, lmao!

I've tried to play the reverse Zelda's Lullaby on my ocarina (well, I've limited myself to the first 3 notes, I was busy), and by James, you're right! I don't think all those points are mere coincidences!
I've never seen Midna that way until now. I've seen similarities with Zelda, but I never thought about those other conclusions!

Posted by: Alantie Dec 2 2008, 03:13 AM

Considering that Zelda is the only other person who can understand the loss of Midna, it's not farfetched that Link would confide in her about it. Losing Midna would hurt both of them- Zelda and Midna were unbelievably close for a long time, their spirits as one. Not to mention that Zelda is the only other person who really understands what occured in Hyrule.

Posted by: gliderpilotgirl Dec 2 2008, 07:34 PM

QUOTE

Anyway I agree with that TP Link should love Zelda for herself and not because she reminds him of Midna. Thats rather shallow if you ask me for Link to force himself to love Zelda as a substitute for the love he shared with Midna IMO.

Hmm. I suppose it's not fair to say that *if* he loved Midna ( I think he fell for her ) that he'd automatically love Zelda. That's the same logic as saying, "Link felt warm and fuzzy when Cremia hugged him, so therefore he'd feel the same if Malon did it."
Obviously my POV on that one is clear: different circumstances make different people...and loving is loving the person, not the appearance.

That's not to say the potential isn't there...pertaining to Midna and Zelda ( I'm not interested in starting a debate on Malon, just using that as an example ) they share common beliefs, interests and much more...just to their own respective kingdoms. If he loved that in Midna, he *may* find it in Zelda.

QUOTE

That's an excellent point. Link is bound to be feeling aimless and broken up over losing Midna who was certainly a solid friend, if not a love. He shared a great adventure with her..that likely brought them together. Meanwhile, him and Ilia grew apart...I can't see Link confiding in her about the circumstances of his adventure, and he could never tell her how he felt about Midna....she'd rightly feel threatened, most woman would.
Anyways...Zelda is wise, warm, caring and understanding...this could lead into more. He would probably come to a place of realizing how comfortable he'd be with her in being himself.

Posted by: MalonsLover Dec 3 2008, 01:11 AM

Without a doubt the potential of TP LinkxZelda is there. But it seems it would take some time for TP Link to mature from a teenage boy to a man that Zelda would probably start taking him seriously as a love interest IMO. Link as he is in the game seems to be that he would be too much in awe of Zelda's beauty for her to take him seriously as a realistic boyfriend at the moment.

Its weird because I get the impression that TP Zelda is not as interested in Link as OOT Zelda is in her Link. And TP Link, based on his boyish reactions when other females interract with him, probably would have a big crush on Zelda. In contrast to OOT Link who seems emotionally indifferent and aloof when interracting with females. Nonetheless IMO OOT/MM LinkxZelda still has a better chance than TP LinkxZelda, but the TP ones still have potential as you said.

BTW I totally agree on Illia probably reacting bad on Link if he were to mention Midna to her. Its just Illia fans like to use the same CLOSER FRIENDSHIP arguement that Zelinkers use for OOT. But what about these rumors on Midnas return on a potential sequel to TP?? Surely this will draw rage from the Zelda and Illia fans alike if these rumors became true.

Posted by: gliderpilotgirl Dec 3 2008, 02:21 AM

QUOTE

He's already done a significant amount of maturing...But I do think he'll need to find his way on his own -without Midna- to truly decide who he wants to be. ( a hero )
I'm not Link-bashing, but I do think he got a large amount of prodding during the game. It's likely a result of hand-holding for the player to assist us, but I thought it came across as Link being reluctant.

QUOTE

Its weird because I get the impression that TP Zelda is not as interested in Link as OOT Zelda is in her Link. And TP Link, based on his boyish reactions when other females interract with him, probably would have a big crush on Zelda. In contrast to OOT Link who seems emotionally indifferent and aloof when interracting with females. Nonetheless IMO OOT/MM LinkxZelda still has a better chance than TP LinkxZelda, but the TP ones still have potential as you said.

I disagree. Most women would be attracted to him, and Zelda is still a woman..she just is good at putting Hyrule's interests before her own. That may make seem cold, but she's anything but.

QUOTE

BTW I totally agree on Illia probably reacting bad on Link if he were to mention Midna to her. Its just Illia fans like to use the same CLOSER FRIENDSHIP arguement that Zelinkers use for OOT. But what about these rumors on Midnas return on a potential sequel to TP?? Surely this will draw rage from the Zelda and Illia fans alike if these rumors became true.

I doubt Midna would return - they closed the door pretty firmly on that. To do so would throw away all the meaning in her departure ( for her people, to protect them from future indiscretions ) for the sake of pleasing some fans.
And for the record - I think Ilia and Link wouldn't work out because he leaves Ordon behind, not because he didn't love her.

Posted by: KokirianClockwork Dec 3 2008, 02:41 AM

I don't even consider them rumors, I consider them fantasies.

Posted by: MalonsLover Dec 4 2008, 02:08 AM

Yeah...Midna coming back is just to please the fans thats for sure. The whole hand holding the player thing I attribute to the ungodly easy difficulty of OOT, MM, WW, and TP that makes the Zelda games seem like childrens games which seems to give the in game character Link childish mannerisms IMO.

When you consider the blood and guts fighting of the more manly assertive Kratos of God of War Link seems like a pushover but in a very awww how sweet and endearing way. Anyway back to Midna...I am sure that TP Link does not have naughty thoughts therefore maybe Midna is just a temporary crush so now its Illia and Zelda comparing time.

Illia: Closer friendship and MAYBE more romantically compatible for Link. But do any of you really believe TP Link is still truly attracted to Illia after he met Zelda??

I really don't think so IMO.

Zelda: Too much of a womanly goddess for a shy and sweet teenage boy fresh from the farm to handle at the moment. But the upside is that Link would definitely be WAAAY more attracted to Zelda than Illia and over time in serving in Zelda's court LinkxZelda MIGHT have a better chance than LinkxIllia IMO.

And I agree with you 100% Gilderpilot that TP Link would likely be a very popular Hero and may possibly have numerous romantic encounters with various Hyrule Town maidens without a doubt.

Posted by: gliderpilotgirl Dec 4 2008, 02:50 AM

QUOTE

When you consider the blood and guts fighting of the more manly assertive Kratos of God of War Link seems like a pushover but in a very awww how sweet and endearing way. Anyway back to Midna...I am sure that TP Link does not have naughty thoughts therefore maybe Midna is just a temporary crush so now its Illia and Zelda comparing time.

Hmm. I got the impression Link's possible feelings for Midna were coming from the result of them being partners for likely months...and them knowing each other pretty good...way more than Midna's appearance. He had no idea what she looked like until the very end, yet I still believe he had feelings for her. A "Beauty and the Beast" type relationship. Her appearance was only icing on the cake.

QUOTE

And I agree with you 100% Gilderpilot that TP Link would likely be a very popular Hero and may possibly have numerous romantic encounters with various Hyrule Town maidens without a doubt.

That makes it sound like Link's going to go from girl to girl...I think he's better than that.

Posted by: MalonsLover Dec 4 2008, 02:59 AM

No thats not what I meant. Link is not a womanizer thats for sure. But he has the elvish pretty boy look down and most women his age in Hyrule Town would probably be very attracted to TP Link with him having the social status of official Hero of Hyrule and all. Beauty & the Beast huh?? Thats a good analogy for LinkxMidna.

Posted by: KokirianClockwork Dec 4 2008, 03:37 AM

Eh, even without being a hero, he still had fans in Castle Town. (Those three young girls in front of the... star-thingie game tent.)

Posted by: MalonsLover Dec 5 2008, 01:31 AM

Thats true. Before he saved Hyrule in TP a majority of the people in Hyrule Town that you can actually interract with seemed to treat Link as just your average joe only Link stuck out due to him being the only guy in Hyrule Town in a green outfit and matching pointy hat. I was thinking more in terms of after the adventure that he would probably have a fan club that exceeds more than three underage girls.

Back on Topic: Though I did not like Midna at first like most people did, I was pleased with the way she turned out at the end. Not just physically but as a good person overall. Since the mirror shattered and ended the potential romantic relationship with Midna, its like a tug of war for Link between choosing Zelda and Illia at the moment.

Posted by: Twilight Mistress Dec 5 2008, 03:22 AM

Illia's just a friend; TP Link left her the same way that Oot Link left Saria behind. And where did he go? Likely the castle to see princess Zelda, since the last scene that follows Link's departure from Ordon is the throne room. As far as a relationship between Link and Midna...again I feel it was more like the one with Oot Link and Navi. Navi had a crush on Link (well, that's the feeling that I got, anyway. That part of it is elaborated more in the official manga, which wouldn't have the official seal of Nintendo if it contradicated elements of the game), but Link didn't return the same feelings; he looked at her as a close friend. The same can be applied to Midna. And you know, just because they're male and female doesn't mean that they have to hook up. Midna obviously felt something towards Link, but she likely sensed that Link had a romantic connection to Zelda, which is why she left him alone with her after she shatters the mirror (the image of Link and Zelda standing alone together could be looked at as a metaphorical representation of the destiny that they share, the destiny in which brings them together).

Posted by: Saami Dec 5 2008, 04:30 AM

QUOTE (Twilight Mistress @ Dec 4 2008, 10:22 PM)

Every single moment Link had with Ilia never had a "just a friend" feel to it. I've never known of two people that looked at each other the way they did and were "just friends". I find it really hard to deny there was some kind of something there, unspoken or otherwise.

Edit: I was gonna add in a quote about Ilia that I think pretty much sums her up reasonably. But I think it's best put in the Ilia thread. So read it there.

Then Link's attention just seemed to shift to Midna. Idk, I think it was fairly easy (and fairly likely) that there was someting more between them. And for that matter, at the end of the game, I think Midna didn't say anything because she knew what she was about to do: shatter the only link between the Twilight Realm and Hyrule. She knew she'd most likely never see Link again. And if their relationship was unspoken romance, she probably would feel guilty saying "I love you. Bye bye now." I don't think she could've left Link with that kind of burden. Maybe trying to save him from pining away for her or something. I dunno, that made sense in my head.

Posted by: Love_of_Zelda Dec 5 2008, 04:58 AM

I would argue that Ilia and Link grew out of each other, if indeed there was a romantical connection. Link is forced to leave (as is she) and they are forced to grow in different ways. The ending with Link riding from what appears to be away from the village indicates to me that they grew apart. However, in the frame before that, we have Ilia waiting at the edge of the village, facing where Link initially leaves in the beginning of the game. Some conversation happened between those two frames, and it is pure speculation as to what exactly took place. However, since Link is riding away from the village, I assume that it was a good-bye conversation that took place.

I have no doubt in my mind that they would be able to be close friends, but Link becomes a different person than the Link we see in the beginning, and the same goes for Ilia. Link rises to his destiny and becomes Chosen Hero, with Ilia dropping some of the bossiness and taking on a more maternal stance to the kids (again, as seen in the ending), whereas before, we didn't really witness her interacting with any of the kids with the exception of Colin, which wasn't voluntary interaction (Colin came to her on a mediating mission).

Posted by: Alantie Dec 5 2008, 05:01 AM

No, what you're saying about Midna does make sense, Saami. I felt that she was going to confess her feelings to Link. There's that pause just before she breaks the mirror. "Link, I. . . . See you." Or something like that if I'm remembering correctly. And then she leaves. I believe you're correct- it wouldn't be fair for her to say she loves him and then go away to never be seen again. And I think it was also a way to protect herself- she had no way of knowing if Link felt towards her as anything more than a friend, and perhaps was sparing herself rejection. She could continue to harbor her feelings and look back on the memories they had together without any bitterness, you know? If that even makes sense. . .

Honestly, IMO, the scenes with Ilia always felt very off balance, more intense romantic type feelings on Ilia's end while Link's were very tempered and even, nothing he did particularly stood out to me as a hint that he cared for Ilia more than he did for Midna, for example. On Ilia's end, I'm pretty certain she loves him. On Link's? Harder to say if it's any thing more than friendship really. But that's just how I felt regarding their relationship. ^^

On a side note- Zomg, Saami has dragon eggs too!!!

Posted by: MalonsLover Dec 6 2008, 02:29 AM

Yeah...I'm with most of you guys/girls. I believe Saami makes some good points but IMO Link seemed to outgrow Illia and by the time of the escort mission to me the LinkxIllia romance from the beginning seemed to be fading away. The memory reviving scene was a crappy scene in the sky wannabe and it totally fell flat in the romance dept. It was more best friends forever with Epona involved IMO. With that said the option for Link to return to Illia will probably always be there if he fails to woo Zelda.

To sum up the big Illia fan theory that I have read so far, after the mirror shattered Link returned to Ordon and married Illia and they lived together for a time. So at the end she was seeing him off as he went to serve a tour of duty as she stands there always waiting for her soldier boy to loyally come home everytime and not be tempted by Zelda. Or something like that.

IMO Link fell in love with Midna but after the mirror shattered Zelda has her chance. Only her lack of development character wise made her seem cold and distant from Link. She had this aura of duty before romantic pleasure about her and may not be interested in pursuing TP Link as OOT Zelda would with her Link. Anyway thats what some Illia fans hang there hats on with Zelda is not interested in Link due to her seeming more mature and formal when compared to awkwardly shy and sweet teenager Link.

I personally just think Link and Zelda's relationship simply has to grow over time somehow behind the scenes for it to be reality IMO. Its just TP seems to have this stigma as the most non Zelink game ever due to the Midna factor

Posted by: Alantie Dec 6 2008, 06:53 AM

Saami does make good points. ^^ <3 But it was just my personal opinion that things between Ilia and Link dwindled down from the begining of the game, and completely went in opposite directions. And like I mentioned, Link's reactions are very hard to pin down as anything more specific than friendship. Both changed quite a bit during the course of the game, and had so many different experiances. . .it just seems like it would make the game meaningless and a huge step backwards if they tried to go back to the way things were before.

QUOTE

To sum up the big Illia fan theory that I have read so far, after the mirror shattered Link returned to Ordon and married Illia and they lived together for a time. So at the end she was seeing him off as he went to serve a tour of duty as she stands there always waiting for her soldier boy to loyally come home everytime and not be tempted by Zelda. Or something like that.

O.o Really, there's nothing to suggest such a thing happened. If Illia and Link had married, there would certainly be a hint, such as a ring on Ilia's finger or something, but there's nothing except her standing alone while Link rides away.

QUOTE

Only her lack of development character wise made her seem cold and distant from Link. She had this aura of duty before romantic pleasure about her and may not be interested in pursuing TP Link as OOT Zelda would with her Link. Anyway thats what some Illia fans hang there hats on with Zelda is not interested in Link due to her seeming more mature and formal when compared to awkwardly shy and sweet teenager Link.

Naturally Zelda is going to put duty before her own personal feelings. She may indeed be attracted to Link, drawn to him, but as things stand with the Kingdom in chaos, I don't think starting up a relationship was her number one concern. I didn't think she seemed cold and distant. Sorrowful and preoccupied with events, but she always treated him with gentle courtesy and respect. Her actions become even more significant towards him when she seperates from Midna. Through her, Zelda came to know Link much better. When she looks at him, and then they start towards each other, it was just this moment where I could feel the connection, and then the way they take each other's hands later. . .ah, anyway. My two cents. But er- I think we're loosing the original topic here somehow. *isn't sure how Midna got lost in talk about Ilia and Zelda*

Posted by: MalonsLover Dec 6 2008, 06:56 PM

Yeah..I agree with the brief glance and the OOT nostalgia moment was the strongest for Zelink. But when compared to the more obvious Midna and even Illia romance moments there is really not much there to go on for LinkxZelda in TP.

But at least it was something. To stay on topic most Midna fans seem to want to believe that Link being the loyal guy that he is will not romantically pursue Zelda or Illia. Instead Link will stay true to Midna and serve under Zelda in a business like working relationship in hopes that she will help him be reunited with Midna somehow.

I admit that its not that far fetched since there is no proof Link will just simply forget about Midna and pursue Zelda as a shallow substitute for the love he shared with Midna. But maybe if Zelda had exhibited more than just a platonic admiration for Link's courage I would think differently, but at the moment TP Link has the chivalric polite gentleman admirer standing from afar as Zelda sits stoicly alone on her throne.

Posted by: KokirianClockwork Dec 7 2008, 04:23 AM

QUOTE

which wouldn't have the official seal of Nintendo if it contradicated elements of the game

Well, the dragon story directly contradicted the game, but I agree that if anything was too farfetched from what Nintendo wanted to show, they wouldn't have made the manga possible.

I have this feeling that if TP gets a sequel, it'll still make it hard for any of us to prove ZeLink/IlLink/Whichever other girl shows. *Head-desks*
I don't know... It's so like Nintendo to suggest and never confirm.

As Super Smash Bros Brawl has the official Nintendo seal too,
Subspace emissary spoiler:

we can add/argue that TP Link does feel something strong for Zelda, since instead of thinking that Mario ''killing'' Zelda was just too weird to be true, and confusingly trying to figure out what just hapenned, he just ran ahead and tried to kill his Nintendo partner without thinking twice. So ok, it was more of an excuse to add in another fight, but.. Nuff said. His princess, no touchie.
Anyway, in TP too he seemed to momentarily stop thinking when he thought Zelda needed help. With Midna, he lost it when he thought she was hurt/dead. Correct me if I'm wrong, it's been a while since I've last finished TP

*Sigh* I know we can't really use that as an argument, but anything can help, eventually. Plus, *points to Nintendo seal*

As fo Zelda: she's an adult. Completely educated to be the princess she's supposed to be, even if she had the hots for Links, she wouldn't show it. Dx
Well, she respects him. It has to start somewhere.
Whether Link loved Midna or not, it won't stop that, well, people grow old, change. Sometime, someday, he'll have to get over her. Not forget her, never! but get on with his life.

Posted by: MalonsLover Dec 7 2008, 05:44 PM

I'm sure Link would have to get over Midna one day. And Zelda does respect Link for sure but thats the only vibe I got from her. Plus the more mature and womanly TP Zelda seems that she would more likely be attracted to a mentally mature man instead of an unusually shy teenage boy like Link. But like I said LinkxZelda in TP needs time to grow as well as Link growing from an awkward teenager into his own man. And if LinkxZelda in TP did ever become a reality, I would like to think Link would love Zelda for herself instead of loving her because she reminds him of Midna.

Posted by: KokirianClockwork Dec 8 2008, 03:24 AM

I totally agree there, MalonsLover.

He should see more of the world as it is. All he saw until now was his peaceful isolated village, the Twilight, and bits of the open world and the city as he was saving them.
To even stand a chance with Zelda, he should meet her people first.
I do believe Link left Ordon at the end of TP, because his innocence was cracked, and as someone with the heart of a hero, he couldn't just repair it and go back to cuddle in Ilia's arms, knowing there are all kinds of people out there and all kinds of injustices.
There are conflicts to be solved, battles to be fought.
And they are not always caused by monsters.
Zelda wouldn't let herself fall for someone who only knows how to herd goats and handle weapons like no else else. She needs someone who knows a lot, from what kind of problems a merchant faces to how come some people can't afford medical care, and what can be done to solve these problems.
*Sigh* That's what fanfics are for, since I don't believe they'll be adding anything to TP. Just the way they keep saying they want something ''new''.
Loved Midna, but I don't want her back. It'll make the ending officially useless and random in my opinion. Maybe a flashback, MM style.

Posted by: Cíntia Apr 10 2011, 07:38 AM

QUOTE (Twilight Mistress @ Nov 26 2008, 11:16 PM)

Zelda

- from the realm of light
- Princess
- is also referred to, in the beginning by Midna, as the Twilight Princess
- wears a cape similar to the one that Midna wears when she is in her true form
- the picture in the front of the instruction booklet presents both Zelda and Midna's side profiles looking in opposite directions of the other (Zelda is looking up while Midna is looking down)
- both have somewhat similar traits
- Zelda is able to channel her energy into Midna
- at the end of the game, Zelda rides Epona with Link, representing the light version of Midna riding on Link as a wolf

Midna

- from the realm of twilight
- Princess
- referred to as the twilight princess
- again, the picture could be considered as a strong hint that points out the relationship between Zelda and Midna
- posseses some of Zelda's traits
- Midna rides on Link's back as a wolf, representing the shadow version of Zelda riding along with Link on his horse

I'd like to bring one more point to your Zelda & Midna analogy I've noticed long time ago: their music themes. Since I'm a musician myself, I believe I tend to pick up on this matter faster than other game details. Basically, Zelda's Lullaby main melody is composed by a group of three notes repeated twice: a medium one, then a higher one, and finally a lower one. With Midna's Desperate Hour main melody, we have quite the same melody structure (group of three notes repeated twice), however following an inverted pattern from Zelda's Lullaby notes positions: a lower note, then a higher one, and finally a medium one.

To illustrate my point, I'm gonna try to "draw" the notes movements as written in sheet music:

Zelda's Lullaby: - ~ _ - ~ _
Midna's Desperate Hour: _ ~ - _ ~ -

They look like mirrored melodies. If you play them together, you will notice that they form a harmony.

Back on the topic, yes, I completely agree with Twilight Mistress' whole post. In fact, I believe Link and Zelda holding hands was the strongest clue concerning romantic interest shown in the game. You know, Japanese culture has lots of tradition and they are often very cautious and implicit with such matters. But when it comes to taking a step on those sensible grounds, they know exactly how to do it without crossing the boundaries of overacting. Why am I saying that? Simply because we have to remember that the series creators are Japanese, and their beliefs and points of view on the world might as well influence their art. That's why we know ZeLink exists without the need of having more explicit evidences in the first place.

Also, what makes me believe Link ultimately considered Midna as a good friend in the end is the fact that people in general feel attracted (romantically) by their similar. Midna was the "other side of the coin" to Zelda's Light. So she probably would have to find Link's Shadow side of the coin* if she was even looking for a romantic interest, and since Link is from the Light World. Shadow and Light cannot mix; rather, they can live in harmony.

In conclusion, Link is a Hylian and Midna, a Twili. All the affection he might have shown towards the Twilight Princess is not enough for me to call it romantic at all. On the other hand, holding hands is a specific gesture of fondness only lovers usually share.

* I don't believe Link's "Shadow side of the coin" in this case would be Dark Link. First because he's not a Twili, but possibly a Dark Interloper, which is a tribe consisted of true evil deeds (not the case of the Twili people). Second, because I believe there should be a Dark Zelda as well, which leads, of course, to the possibility of a Dark ZeLink.

EDIT: After finishing reading the thread, I realized you guys had already pointed out the reversed music themes issue. I made this post before reading it completely. So, sorry about the repetition, but take it as a reinforcement.