Discuss Termania and it's significance here. Was it a parallel universe? Meant to portray Link's subconsious in a doomed world? All discussions revolving around Termania will be here.

Well, If I recall right the actual game manual says Termina is an alternate universe. It makes sense I think, they are clearly in a different world. Everyone is similar, yet distinctly different.

As for a dream- I'm not sure where I heard this...but there was some discussion regarding the possibility that in development MM may have been planned to be a dream during his seven year slumber before being changed.

I think it makes sense. He needs to discover who he is again and that he is a Hero...that he wants to be one.

Really? How weird!!! That would have been awesome if they had chosen that path, but as it is I remember I think the game manual does describe Termania as an AU.

I think a lot of people bring up the fact that Termania might have been a dream due to the fact that Link hit his head when he fell off of Epona bringing up the question whether it all really happened or was just due to the injury Link recieved. Part of the reason I'm disinclined to believe that though is because we're not shown Link waking up at the end of the game in any form- he's just shown riding off on Epona.

But if Termania is an AU, was it created as an AU in parallel to Link's own subconsious the way that LA seems to have been, or is it merely a parallel world to Hyrule?

I believe Termina was supposed to be a parallel world of Hyrule. Not only does the game manual state that it's a parallel world of Hyrule, but most of the characters in Termina have a Hylian counterpart. They look very similar to the OoT characters, yet their situations, backgrounds, and even personalities are very different.

Parallel world vs Dream huh?? Interesting. What intrigues me is these theories that Link stayed in Termina for the rest of his life or that he died some horrible lonely death on the way back to Hyrule is of great interest to me. Though I think some of these theories are weird. Especially the LinkxLulu one solely based on Link as Mikau is performing in the ending credits with Lulu and her band.

It would've been awesome as a dream from his 7 years magical coma! But yeah, AU.
I really wanted to see the Terminian Ganondorf, since the witches were selling potions, he could've been , I don't know, the Stock Pot Inn cook instead of Anju. Oh well. He's too -special- to have an AU self.

The dream (if it was a dream) likely occured after he fell off Epona and hit his head; it seems like the most logical explanation that can provide the reasoning behind encountering the same characters reflected in a "parallel universe".

But Link woke up after a few minutes. And all the MM characters that were also in OoT had different names, different situations, and even different personalities. A few examples:

The Cucco Lady lives in a village and takes care of Cuccos in OoT. In MM, her name is Anju, she lives in a (not exactly busy) town, and runs an inn.
The Running Man in OoT is the postman in MM.
Koume and Kotake are villains in OoT. In MM, Koume has her own Potion Shop, and Kotake works at the boating tour.

Yeah, I'm more inclined to believe Termina is a parallel world to Hyrule rather than a dream Link's having. Just saying. :)

It could still apply to Link having a dream being that characters in MM are reflections of those in Oot. They might have different roles and personalities in MM than they do in Oot, but it's still logical to assume that Termina could be the product of a dream. Sorta like what happened in the Wizard of Oz; Dorothy dreamt about a parallel universe associated with certain people she knew, only they took on different roles.

That's interesting; you have a point.

I think it makes sense in that weird, warped way that dreams often have on our real reality. Things happen that never would in real life, and our reactions are often off, too.
Take Ingo for example: there's three of them in Termina. Two are bad nasty people and the third a gruff and harsh man, but with a soft spot for a Zora singer who weirdly looks like Ruto, but in a dress.
It's based on the original: the nasty bitter part he gets, but also the soft spot that allows him to be kind after Lon Lon is rescued.

There's also that unreal feeling some parts of MM have too: I mean, aliens kidnapping the cows? weird.

You could also say that despite it being warped, truth does exist. There's a character who's been turned into a child against his will and separated from the woman he loves. Doesn't that bring Adult Link being seperated from Adult Zelda into view?
The Skull Kid's loneliness and rejection too could reflect on Link's feelings, before as the boy without a fairy and after, as an aimless hero who's fairy left him.
I also think some part of Link might have desired to be a Zora, or a Goron, and this is reflected. But again, garbled, as I doubt he wanted to be a Deku Scrub.

I thought being the Deku Scrub had its advantages but I really liked the Zora one out of all three the best probably. But for me combat wise just being the cute and cuddly Link riding real fast with Epona was the most effective for me. I cheated with Gamefaqs to get the Kafei/Anju mask sub plot but it was worth it to get the Fierce Deity Mask IMO.

But yeah, I'm totally with you 100% on the MM being sort of a dream of Links subconscious mind and all, but what I enjoyed most about MM is the uniqueness with all the subplots around this lively town blah blah. But could any of you tell me whats up on some of these weird alternative theories of him staying there, or either dying somehow? I have even read this off the wall one where Link returns to Hyrule from Termania and chooses to live the rest of his life as a kokiri because he was so heartbroken that he could not find his beloved Navi. What the heck is up with that?? :blink: Did any of you guys/girls really feel Link loved Navi that much?? I don't think so.

I'm not sure. Personally, I think those who think he stayed there are missing a big piece of the ending. Link is seen with Epona in the last scene, and looks up ( like he was at the beginning ) before spurring Epona and galloping away: feeling is an integral part of the games, and I had a very strong feeling of, "he found what he was looking for." The Mask Salesman remarks that he should be heading home too. I doubt he died, because the Hero's Spirit ( likely to be him ) speaks with experience and wisdom, more than he had in Termina. Also the tale survives to make it to Zelda, likely from him returning to tell her.

I think the quest for Navi was partially an excuse. He WAS looking for a friend, but was it really her? I think she might have been the friend he thought he wanted, but the Skull Kid was who he really needed to find. I think he was struggling deeply in the aftermath of being sent back in time and he was messed up: his journey was also to regain his identity he just didn't realize it. ( As a hero )
Anyways, your question: Yes and no. I think Navi was important in the sense of fitting in ( the boy without a fairy ) and a constant friend...but he's not a Kokiri and will grow up...he's grown past being a mere child.

That's an interesting concept, of Link wanting to find Navi but needing to find Skull Kid. Could you elaborate on that a bit?

I'm not too sure that its the Skull Kid because as an adult in OOT you can kill the skull kid over and over again for a big orange rupee. I think Link cared more for Navi than the skull kid IMO. I agree with your other points on Links lost sense of purpose for sure. Thats why I will always be annoyed with the OOT ending that Link did not choose to remain with Zelda in the Adult Timeline. At least with the Manga, Link protests Zelda's royal command but I'm still angry AAARRGGHH!! :angry: :ph43r:

The fact that Zelda sent Link back in time wasn't a "royal demand"; it was a kind gesture on her part. If she was selfish like so many people claim her to be because of her status, she wouldn't have sent Link back to his childhood and instead could have forced him to stay with her in the alternate timeline. However, being the person she is, she selflessly allowed him to return to his childhood that he would have otherwise given up to remain an adult.

Now, for MM, I believe that the various masks are metaphorically representing Link's pursuit for self identification. This notion is derived from the fact that whenever he wears a mask, he essentially adopts a slightly different personality that matches the specific mask. Switching back and forth between the masks is a possible indication that during his quest in Termina, he experianced an identity crisis. I mean, if you grow up thinking you're one way, and then you find out that you're something opposite, don't you think that would be enough to throw you off for a bit? Link likely just needed enough time by himself to realize where he fits in life.

It's simple: first off, some things don't add up about it being all Navi.

She leaves, and then he leaves the Temple of Time seeming not really upset. That made me think that their goodbye was inevitable, and natural. He was now a grown up ( in being mature, as per Kaepora Gaebora said ) and didn't need a fairy guardian.
I guess what I mean is he didn't seem too broken up over it, more so over leaving Zelda behind.

So for him to just up and leave to find her seems a little odd. If you consider his situation, he's known as a hero ( according to MM's prologue ) from Zelda, yet he probably feels like a child again with little purpose. Maybe he's not sure he's a hero without his adult form...and he's without a true home, aside from Zelda. He'd never be able to live in the forest, and probably won't fit in anywhere else. So he's feeling alone. ( And maybe he leaves Zelda because she's so sure of her purpose, and he's not. )

Who could understand not fitting in? The Skull Kid. Perhaps Link is now feeling anger towards Navi as he realizes he can't fit in, and he doesn't have her to help him. Again, compare to the SK and the Giants. So I think that the Skull Kid was really who Link needed.

Gosh I love these theories. XD MM is probably the most symbolic and psychological of all the Zelda games thus far. ^^

Mmkay, I think there is a good point in saying that the Skull Kid was the one that Link needed to meet up with again. Though Link was searching for Navi, I don't know that finding her would have done him much good except to have a person who understood him completely and had gone through the same events. However, the Skull Kid had experianced what Link had- he'd been left behind by those he called friends. Not because they didn't care about him or didn't want to be his friend, but because they had to. This can be compared to Link being left behind by Navi and the adult Zelda, all those he had known in the future. . .

Personally, I'm of the opinion that the Deku scrub mask represents how Link feels as a child and as the Kokiri without a fairy. Look how everyone responds to when that mask is worn. Everyone is condescending and won't give Link the time of day, and it's a form much weaker than any of the others. Pretty symbolic- the Skull Kid used MM to bring Link's fears and unhappiness into the form of the Deku scrub. IF that makes sense. :sweat:

With the Goron Mask, I think you need to look on Darmani's feelings when the Song of Healing is played, and equate that to Link's own. Darmani was a hero for the Goron people- they depended on him to protect them, and that's the reason his spirit cannot find rest, because he can't fullfill his deeds as a hero towards those he protects. Likewise, we can compare this easily to Link, who is a hero for those in Hyrule, and they depended on him to protect them from dangers like Ganondorf.

The Zora Mask also requires to you compare Miku's feelings to Link's. Miku's regret shares a little of the hero aspect of Darmani's, in that Miku carries the bloodline of Zora warriors/heros. But what Miku's feelings focus on is Lulu, the woman he is leaving behind, and the pain she has. Likewise, you can compare this to Link having to leave Zelda behind and the pain that causes him since all he wants is to stay with her, like Miku wanting to stay with Lulu.

The final mask, the Fierce Diety isn't too complicated to figure out. ;) This represents what Link once was- the power and strength he had when he was an adult who defeated Ganon blessed with goldlike power.

And I'd type more, but I've got to run. XD But that's my thoughts on some of those things, so yes.

I guess it makes sense that the Skull Kid Link befriended in MM was like a kindred spirit in a similar loneliness that he can relate his own loneliness to. I'm with Gilderpilot in a way that Navi was important to Link but not that important. I personally found Navi to be annoying anyway with the ever constant Z-Target catch phrases of HEY, LOOK, LISTEN, WATCH OUT, HELLO.

So now that I think about it, I can see how the Skull Kid was probably that particular friend Link was looking for and not really Navi. But I think its ironic how you can kill the Skull Kid in OOT for the big orange rupee though. I also like the points on self identification and what the individual masks possibly mean symbolically.

I can see that..it was clearly meant to unsettle Link, hence the scene of him running away from the Deku Scrubs.

Link understands how he feels...I can see that too. Oddly enough if you complete saving the Gorons, they want to make him their leader. A hint for Link's future perhaps? The people of Hyrule may feel similarily...or maybe did in the Adult time.

I had never made this connection, but I can see it now. Link clearly was feeling angst over having to leave Zelda ( the scene atop the Clock Tower ) so he has an idea of how Mikau feels.
You can even compare the feelings in the scene: Mikau is floating, defeated and down and then Lulu appears and they walk together to their band.
Similarly Link is probably feeling at his lowest atop the Clock Tower. He's stuck as a useless Deku Scrub, and he's going to die with all of Termina. Then he gets the Ocarina and Zelda's memory takes him away...she not only saves his life indirectly but encourages him. ( So in a roundabout way, Mikau's parallel to Link reinforces Link x Zelda )

The interesting thing about all three is that while the three Termina people have no chance to fix their problems, Link does.
He can beat being being a child and alone. He can help the people of Hyrule again. He can also be with Zelda again in the future. He has all the opportunities in the world.

I did find Majora's Mask to be filled with hidden meanings (also sadness. Even with its N64 graphics I almost let tears down more than once.. And I wasn't drunk), but to read what others think makes me realise there are a lot more than I thought!

If we want to get THAT serious though:
3.
Holy number of Hyrule. Number of days remaining to save Termina.
And, remembering a text about the original Snow White fairytale:
''the 3 drops of blood on the white snow, making her think about having a daughter with snow white skin, actually symbolises her reaching sexual maturity''
Or something.
This is a game for Everyone, so let's forget the meaning of blood and the number 3 combined (the text did explain how 3 drops of blood, not 2 or 4, meant something sexual), but it did make me think about how all he went through was a step towards manhood, and how the mask changing could relate to what teens go through before fitting in their adult identity. And on how the people around them also change (suddenly, father isn't so perfect, flawed or strong for example).
Plus, the fairy left with him, although awfully bossy (pesky Tatl), was more of the thinking kind. The one left with Skull Kid (Tael) was more impulsive, and more on the distracted/light-headed side. Tatl constantly reminded Link how he reminded her of Tael, who was with Skull Kid, who was trying to destroy the world out of his anger and loneliness. And with some masks, Link is warned to be careful, for they possess great darkness and he shouldn't let it get over him.
Plus, Dark Link being a seperate entity in OoT, but Link finally growing up in MM, thus accumulating the emotional knowledge he couldn't in OoT and the darkness that comes with it...

And that paralell with Anju and Kafei is wicked cool!

Not arguing with anyone here, just giving out everything my mind is throwing, trying to clear it up in the process.
And if anything's wrong someone will tell me. :thumbs:
I've read the other posts, now to see if I've found them clear enough. ;)

Nice spotting the 3 thing, KokirianClockwork!

The number 3 is undeniably important to the Hylian culture, so it is rather fitting that it would be the number of days for the world to end. It's sacrilegious almost, and it sort of ties in with the theory Saami found about the Stone Tower Temple being a blaspheme against the three Goddesses (the thread for that is HERE).

One of the theories I've always found fascinating was that the Happy Mask Salesman was a descendant of the dark tribe that created Majora's Mask, and he had searched the mask out in the hopes of somehow atoning for the sins of his ancestors.

I always thought it was funny that Link would run from the scrubs at first having sliced many of them to bits without trouble in OoT, but after playing it more and seeing the symbolizm of the scrubs, it made sesne that he would run away from them because of what they reminded him of.

I thought the same thing. :D It immediately reminded me of your case for kingship essay, and it fits in.

Yup! The more you consider it, the morse sense it makes. When Mikau is at his lowest, it's an image of Lulu that brings him peace, and on the flip when Link is in his darkest spot of trouble, it's memories of Zelda that restore his hope. It's also interesting, considering that Lulu and Mikau hold hands in MM, it sort of echos Link and Zelda holding hands in OoT.

It is very interesting. Termania is a world completely without hope- everyone there is in a bad way and very few of them express any hope or have any way to chance things. But Link does- whether this is because he's not really part of this world, or simply because he's a sort of wild card in that land- something that wasn't counted upon- is fascinating to think about.

There always does seem to be a lot of 3 symbolizm in Zelda games. Reflecting back on the Triforce and the Goddesses. ^^ I shall have to read that Stone Tower thing when I have time- it sounds very interesting!

I completely agree. The complete and utter hopelessness in Majora's Mask is what sets it apart from Ocarina of Time. As I've said before, I think OoT was meant to be a classic fairytale, with bad things happening, but good prevailing in the end. We don't have that in the world of Termina. Instead, we have pessimism, gloominess, even a bit of evil if you consider the Majora's Mask and the moon being controlled by it. (This may be off topic, but am I the only one who thinks the meadow in the moon seems out of place in a game as dark as MM?)

No..you're not the only one who thought the peaceful tree in the middle of the meadow inside the moon was totally bizarre. It did seem awkwardly out of place.

I'm thinking the meadow in the moon was meant to be an illusion, that's how out of place it seems. I have no evidence to support this, though; it's just a hunch.

I myself deducted that it was either an illusion or some random magical aspect of the moon. Who knows really. :huh:

No, you aren't the only one who thought the meadow was odd and completely random. I think that was the point- after so much gloom and depressing issues and scenery, such a peaceful setting was even creepier than some of the other places you go to. The whole thing is unsettling- you have this meadow with these children- things that are supposed to be innocent and full of light, but then you see the grotesque monsterous masks they wear and the frightening insightful things they say.

I can't remember who was talking about the mask salesman- I'm too lazy to go back and read XD- but I was doing some thinking on it, and I agree about him having a connection to the tribe that created MM. It's just too odd- he knows too much, he had the knowledge of the song of Healing, and he found the mask after the tribe had gone to such great lengths to seal it away. Not only that, but the children inside the moon all look like little red haired versions of the mask salesman. And that he can just vanish into thin air is also pretty questionable. I wonder if perhaps he's the ghost of one of those of the tribe who created MM and he came back to see the mask destroyed, or something. There's lots of possibilities.

It's very ironic that a beautiful meadow with five little kids in it could ever be seen as creepy. Maybe it's an aftereffect of seeing so many depressing, gloomy stuff--we're now expecting that something as peaceful as a meadow (where time doesn't exist, apparently) can't be real, and is therefore an illusion to cover up some kind of evil. Sounds a lot like paranoia, if you ask me.

I know what you mean about the masks that the children wear. Four of the masks are boss masks, and the fifth mask is the Majora's Mask. Not exactly innocent.

But I still don't see how the childrens' question are supposed to be disturbing, if that was Nintendo's intent. I can definitely call them insightful, though:

The questions are disturbing, in a way, but I'm still not sure why or how.

I think the Moon's meadow is more what was inside Skull Kid than anything else. After being so much time possessing the Skull Kid, it's only natural that Majora fed on his thoughts/soul/something similar.
A kid's view of what should be his life, meaning hanging around other kids on a place that's lively green. But, he still managed to be rejected in that reflection of a kid's paradise.
Thus the reason why, although Skull Kid was back in Termina, unconscious (if I recall....), the figure wearing Majora's Mask still only thought about playing although it was sitting away from the other kids, images of the giants Skull Kid thought had abandoned him.

It also made me think a LOT about Link.
Kids, wearing masks, asking questions that could relate on why he even bothers helping everyone he meets. Also, on his true face:
When in OoT, a child woke up inside an adults body, not only having to act as an adult but also having to do things only a strong adult can do, with people suddenly having more respect towards him than when he was still a kid;
could be what OoT Link felt all the time as an adult: a kid wearing a mask, acting. In the official art, he smiles a lot less as an adult than as a kid. In MM, he has 3 days to save the world from an horrible end, he keeps helping people, but they get in trouble all over again when he plays the song of time, as if nothing hapenned, and yet he smiles, confidently. He also reacts more emotionally than ever before.
Even by wearing all these masks, at the end he doesn't feel like an impostor since he knows those masks he wears aren't him. In OoT, he is forced to admit that the body he inhabits is his. It doesn't feel right. His soul hasn't grown into it. He's not sure how to act.

The meadow was some kind of creepy mirror, a fight between innocences.
That world where he can just be a kid and play around, is that not only hiding behind a mask? Hiding one's face not only to avoid being stared at, but also to avoid looking at anything under its true light?
The creepiness of the masks could also indicate the fear he felt when he realised he had grown. They forgot something in the game (or didn't make it clear enough): a world of adults is intimidating when you've lived your life in a small village of children. Waking up as one yourself after thinking you've slept a night or less...

Eek.

I do think Link and Skull Kid are similar.

Very nice theories, KokirianClockwork! :D

I think that's a good theory- the scene in the moon might have been a reflection of the Skull Kid's relative innocence. After all, he only wanted someone to play with him- that was what set him on the path to finding MM. The Giants had left him all alone and he had no one to play with. After you defeat MM and find him again, he immediately wants to play again. And in a warped way, that's what MM and the other children in the meadow want. They take that innocent desire and warp it into something deadly and hurtful.

What makes the questions disturbing is partially due to the fact that it's a child asking them. They're not things a child would say or probably even think about normally. They also seem to be insights to Link himself and make you think.

What kind of friends does Link have? People like Darunia, Ruto, Saria, Zelda, Navi, and Malon. The majority of them are strong powerful people who are already different themselves. Also, due to Link having gone back in time, he has to work to reforge those friendships with some because they wouldn't remember him. So the people that Link thinks of as friends might not really think of him as a friend yet in the Child time line since they probably don't know him as well yet perhaps.

This is a really good question: what makes Link happy? It's something that's really left up to some speculation, but you can pretty much infer that helping others seems to make Link happy, and certainly being with friends and people he cares for like Zelda and Saria. Traveling perhaps as well. Do those things make the people around him happy? While Link is out fighting monsters, it's probably a mixed reaction. While they were happy that he was keeping people safe, they would probably worry about him as well. Traveling would take him away from those he loved and cared for, so that wouldn't necissarily make them happy. It's a good question, and one that has so many answers and responses to it.

Now THIS is a question I think hits really close to being personal. The right thing to do . . . at the end of OoT, what Zelda did by sending Link back to regain his lost time. . . it was the right thing to do, but it didn't make everyone happy. Certainly it didn't make Link or Zelda happy, nor probably any of the sages who knew and cared for Link. But for the greater good, it was the right thing to do and kept more people happy than not.

Again this is a question that is really personal to Link. He wears so many masks in this game, but the face underneath, that of the child, it's not really who Link is. So really, it's not his true face if you think about it.

So I think that's what makes those question so disturbing is the fact that they bring to light some issues that probably very personal and even hurtful to Link.

True..I think the things that may hurt OOT/MM Link is that he is a lonely orphan trying to find his identity in a world (Hyrule/Termina) where he seems to be a social misfit everywhere he goes. It seems that helping others helps Link to cope with his isolated loneliness in seeking acceptance among the stangers he meets and also Link's need for maternal type love and affection from the closer friendships like Saria and Zelda greatly helps him to pacify that type of love he never got from a real parent.

I have to point out that Link DID have a parental figure in the form of the Deku Tree. The Kokiri speak of him as being their father, the one who protects and cares for them. The OoT manga further enforces this idea by showing how strong the bond between the Kokiri- including Link- and the Deku Tree was. He told them stories and comforted Link after Mido had been picking on him.

Yeah...the Deku Tree was definitely a father figure to Link but not like a real father that could teach him how to be a man in the traditional sense. As you said, the Deku Tree was a father to all of the Kokiri and not just Link. I'm sure Link would have felt very unwanted in growing up among the Kokiri if Saria was never there to comfort his loneliness in being an orphan.

Yes, Link lost both of his parents, but nothing in the game infers that the Kokiri have parents anyway. They refer to the Great Deku Tree as their father.

But Link was known in the forest as the only one without a fairy. Were you referring to that?

Yes..I only meant Link would be lonely due to the CIRCUMSTANCES of being an orphan. I don't think he was aware of being an orphan until the Deku Tree explained where he came from. Link probably thought of himself as the social outcast kokiri without a fairy instead of thinking of himself as an orphan.

A father figure is alright, after all, in the typical image of a family, while the father may be present and caring, his absence isn't as touching as when the mother is missing. Besides, the Great Deku Tree was more present than let's say, a father soldier would. Plus, since Link firmly believed he was a Kokiri, having no fairy was what made him lonely. It's as an Hylian boy that he must've felt weird with no parents.
Even if Saria could've been a maternal figure, she's still more of a friend. The same goes for Zelda (and then, when they're adults, we could argue all day on her role, depending if we're Zelinkers or not, but when they are still children, she's a close friend, not a mother.)


I think he was just convinced that no matter what hapenned to him, his goal was to try and make everyone happy. Someone has to sacrifice their own (social) life for the well-being of the greater community. Though, he never openly asked himself if what he did really bring happiness to the people around him, and if that's what made him happy too. Or was it just an illusion? Does his happiness lie within something else? Being selfish, perhaps? He's never really tried that, and it seems to make a lot of people happy.

I see MM Link as a happier Link than OoT Link, somehow.

Selfless hero for the win! (Yay, Link!)

And thanks, Angel. :)

Yeah...I only see Saria and Zelda being the more mentally mature close friends that are more aware of Link's loneliness that may make then seem more motherly in their relationship with Link but not in a literal sense at all.

I don't think that being aware of another person being lonely means you're a maternal figure to them. O.o It's called being perceptive or knowing a person so well that you can understand them without them having to tell you anything.