Many tend to believe that since Zelda only appears in TP a few times that the relationship between them is not very strong. Well, Bill Trien of Nintendo said "Just because it doesn't happen on screen doesn't mean it never happens." This in itself means that there were more interactions between the two behind the scenes; it's like an underlying message waiting to be plucked from what we read and hear in literal terms. If you ask me, there are several hints throughout the game that allow you to see that Link and Zelda have feelings for one another. You just have to pay really close attention to their "few" encounters, which means you have to go through the game a couple of times to do so. One of the scenes includes their first encounter with one another, when Link is growling like a ferocious beast until Zelda turns around, startled. Once he catches a glimpse of her he walks up to her, as if a puppy, and Midna rolls her eyes, grinning. Midna's reaction is the real hint, as she knew that their would be an imediate connection between Link and Zelda.

Another scene would be at the end, when they are gazing at one another, only to be rudely interupted by Ganondorf's reappearance as a spirit. There are other scenes, but it would take forever to type.

I'm torn with TP. I'd like to ship ZeLink, and I do, but I saw so little between them in comparison to Midna and Ilia. I'm actually pretty annoyed at the dev's for that...they led us with interviews to believe we'd finally see the long hoped for ZeLink, but wasted our time with the other girls.

Ilia I think was strongly focused on, but she's by definition a "before" girl, and doesn't fit into Link's new life. While I think Link having a pre-existing relationship is realistic, it just served to make him torn and reluctant: I don't think Ilia really has a place in Link's life after the adventure.

Midna seemed alot closer to the standard ZeLink, IMO ( the comparisons to Tetra can't be missed ) but they slammed that door in the end. However, I do feel Midna's similarity to Zelda could be a door to a future ZeLink relationship. I'm not sure: you can't fall in love with one person and automatically love the similar person...love in my experience isn't logical like that.

I think the ZeLink in TP mainly consists of a connection and potential; I saw a connection and if Link sought out wisdom and direction from her AFTER the adventure, thye may become close. I do think they had chemistry. Like you said, the fact that Midna's reactions were underscoring their connection seems a blatant hint...I'm more apt to believe a secondary character noticing a connection than being outright told Link likes someone, for the fact that Nintendo would never seriously presume to tell us how Link ( we ) feel.

Overall, I think the ZeLink was at it's weakest, but Zelda's the only one who fits after the adventure. He's not going to go back to Ordon and become it's mayor like the manual suggested he originally wanted( or a goatherd like he was before ) It just doesn't fit, IMO. Link is destined for greatness, and I think he'll only be able to truly fulfill it at Zelda's side.

The Twilight Princess incarnations of Link and Zelda are really the only incarnations of Link and Zelda that I ship. However it does present a minor problem. Since it is believed that Link and Zelda got together in OoT and this is more or less a sequel (or at the very least set within the same timeline as OoT), I think this would make TP Link and Zelda distant relatives as it is implied that this Link is a descendant of the Hero of Time. And I assume it's pretty safe to say that TP Zelda is a descendant of OoT Zelda. And I think that's why they didn't have anything outright. As a matter of fact, Link and Zelda really seem to keep each other at arms length as it seems Link's affections lie with Midna.

Again, there is more that happens off the scenes that what is shown directly on screen. I personally seen more between Link and Zelda, to tell you the truth. And as far as them being related... I don't believe in that. TP is NOT, I repeat, is not a sequal of OoT, and such was stated by the game designers themselves. They are not related; they never have been and never will be.

Not WW, Saami? ( on a side-topic, I'm merely curious )

Yes, I can see that problem with Link and Zelda. They do even look somewhat alike, and I have a hard time looking at the Zelda of TP without being reminded of the Hero of Time, through her demeanor and such. I do agree that the relation is *distant* though...we're talking hundreds of years, so they could be 10th cousins or such. Enough time to allow a second child's bloodline to branch off into commoners and lead to TP Link's parents while the oldest child's line maintained the throne. If enough time has passed, genetics is no longer an issue to hinder romance. Since I believe in other Link/Zelda pairings, I think this is also the case if we have relation.

I've never thought that this could be the reason why we have Link/Zelda ever kept apart in a game though, I don't think the dev's allow timeline to dictate the storyline.
I did most definately see Link x Midna developed throughout the game though rather than ZeLink.

Edit: to Twilight Mistress: I recall reading Aunoma saying these two were not related to the previous pair, but that was when I think they were still going with TP being between OoT and WW. If you believe the Hero's Spirit IS post-MM Link, he does seem to strongly imply him and Link have a relation, though it could well be only metaphoric in that they share the Hero's call. Zelda I would say it's likely as royalty is typically hereditary with documented lines going back hundreds of years.

I don't really ship anyone in WW. Though I do agree that ZeLink is adorable. But I think I'm leaning toward Medli/Link for the simple fact that she's adorable. <3 Actually, I'll probably end up shipping both pairings since I like both of them.

I don't think their possibility of being related would hinder their romance either, as at least a hundred years have passed, which I believe is ample time for genetics not to be a problem.

And yet, if it is the case just the thought of anything incestuous, whether they are distant relatives or not, just kind of creeps some people out.

I like Medli alot too, if there was a "competing" love interest in WW it'd be her...but I obviously ship Link/Zelda. ( PH helps with that..it's even cuter than in WW )
I always thought Medli was cute with Komali.

Yeah, I've seen the argument " Link and Zelda can't get together because it's INCEST!!" lots of times, and I get annoyed each and every time. I can't help but feel it's in lieu of really saying " I don't like Link and Zelda together". You only get genetic problems if relatives keep marrying each other and they are all related, which I recall hearing was a problem in some European monarchies at one time. I don't think Link and Zelda will ever be related closely enough to matter.

Anyways back to TP Link and Zelda. Despite how little was portrayed, I can't help but like them together. It's mainly because of nostalgia for other Link/Zelda's but I feel he belongs with her, I just can't see a better alternative despite how much the game forced Link and Ilia.
I totally love playing through the ending with Link beside Zelda in the Magic Armor btw. They look like a royal couple.

Really, they're not related. There may be similar things in both games, but that's like saying that all of the Zelda games in the making are related to one another when they are not. Just because they have similar elements in the story doesn't mean that they are related. That's like relating Macbeth to Hamlet in Shakespeare when clearly they are not related. Anyway, with Link and Zelda they are not connected by blood, close or distant. You cannot judge by appearances as people can have similar characteristics, even if they are not related by blood. So really, you can't go by that. And you cannot assume that it takes place after OoT, being that you have no evidence of this. The fact that the games have similar elements and characters does not make it so that it is a continuation of the story. Not only that, but WW is the official sequal to OoT.

Anyway, keep in mind that seeing is not believing but that believing is seeing. In other words, you can't formulate opinions based on what you see with the interactions Link has between Midna and Ilia. You have to look at the things that are not shown explicitly. You have to analyze and look deeper than what appears on the surface.

I don't believe they have to be related, I just think in this particular case, the evidence is there that supports it. In many other cases, not so much. WW explicitly says that WW Link is not connected to the Hero of Time, but Tetra is to OoT Zelda. ( Though there's still debate on that from some corners because of the Hero's Shield ) With the other games, it's up for debate.

Actually I do have official evidence, or the closest you can get: that quote from Aonuma.

" –When does Twilight Princess take place?

Aonuma: In the world of Ocarina of Time, a hundred and something years later.

–And the Wind Waker?

Aonuma: The Wind Waker is parallel. In Ocarina of Time, Link flew seven years in time, he beat Ganon and went back to being a kid, remember? Twilight Princess takes place in the world of Ocarina of Time, a hundred and something years after the peace returned to kid Link’s time. In the last scene of Ocarina of Time, kids Link and Zelda have a little talk, and as a consequence of that talk, their relationship with Ganon takes a whole new direction. In the middle of this game [Twilight Princess], there’s a scene showing Ganon’s execution. Link and Zelda left him be and he then did something outrageous, so it was decided that he should be executed. That scene takes place several years after Ocarina of Time. Ganon was sent to another world and now he wants to obtain the power... "

This quote basically proves the split timeline.

I agree about looking deeper...you have to look at the big picture: is a scene relevant to the overall situation? Saami may get upset at me for bringing Malon into this but take Cremia's hug for example: it's a totally superfluous reward, as well as random and optional, but I've seen it used it as evidence that Link is in love with Malon or will love her in the future. I say baloney to that opinion, because evidence of a deeper connection with Zelda was already present....where it never was with Malon.

And I also agree you have to a certain extent be looking for romance, it's seldom obvious. I just think we saw Link actually develop a relationship with Midna, and it was implicated with Ilia. With Zelda, there's a connection, IMO, but I find it hard to support in contrast to other games like OoT and WW, where it was overwhelming.
I want to look for ZeLink, but what I am saying is if you have to look TOO hard, than maybe it's not there. I could be wrong, but I still support ZeLink after TP, I think the potential is great, even if it wasn't shown too much in game.

Well, even if it does take place after the OoT, Link and Zelda do not relate to one another. If you think about it, TP Zelda is a strong character, heroic I would call her. Link, like the Link in WW, is just a hero called upon who was named after the hero. And there are several implications between Link and Zelda. I've already found them. Anyway... :D

Oh don't get me wrong, I don't want TP Link and Zelda to be related because I ship them. I don't really believe they are related because of my stance on OoT Link's future. I was only stating there was a possibility.

And just as a note: I wouldn't use the "Link and Zelda is related" as an excuse not to ship them. If I don't like it I'll just say I don't like it.

I think there is a lot of potential there. Link and Zelda definitely had a connection I think. It may not have started out as love as opposed to Princess and Hero. But after the fight, I don't think it unlikely that Link went back to see her. I like to think that he went to the castle library to read up on the Hero of Time. And Zelda keeping him company.

Alternately he does that same, but with Hena at the fishing hole. I love Link/Hena. But that's off topic. So yeah.

Well, at the end we see that Link leaves Ordon, riding Epona on horseback after laying the Master Sword to rest. Then we see the throne room. Might not seem like much, but this could be a very big hint *cough* *cough*. If you take and compare the endings to one another, TP ends rather in the same way as OoT; in Oot, Link lays the Master Sword to rest and we have an image of a castle, only that both Link and Zelda were seen in the courtyard. TP ended much in the same way, as it again ended with a castle scene. Hm... What are the odds? *hint hint* lol

And ya know... They wouldn't call it Zelda for no reason. The name of the game itself implies that there is a connection between the two. Since Link is the hero it indicates that Zelda, being that she is the one that the game is named after, is the one that is constantly on his mind; she is the one that he ultimately has to protect. And, because both are involved with the triforce, there is already mutual understanding that no one else would be able to have with Link. Even Midna doesn't really understand the full effects of the triforce. Well, that's my opinion. :P

Just because the game is called "The Legend of Zelda" doesn't really mean a thing. After all LA's official title is called "The Legend of Zelda: Link's Awakening". And yet Zelda's only mentioned once and then never again. And it's strongly hinted that Link fell in love with Marin, who may look like Zelda, but is not Zelda.

I think eventually, "The Legend of Zelda" became just t a title. As the story isn't really about Zelda. For the most part, we don't really interact with her or even know what she's doing while Link's off being a hero. We follow Link and his struggle to save the world. Yes, Zelda is an important element to the story, but we're with Link every step of the way, which is why I think it should be "The Legend of Link". But I digress

In the ending scene, I think Link was riding off to see Zelda. Perhaps to get information on a new adventure. Or perhaps to simply see her. I don't know really. But I do think Link would spend time trying to find a way back to Midna. If he truly cared about her, I think he would at least attempt to find her. Like OoT's Link searched for Navi.

Well, Marin is like a parallel version of Zelda; same characteristics and personality while helping to guide him throughout the game, like Zelda. Also, when he "awakens" after being swept up on shore, he thinks that Marin is Zelda, meaning that they look exactly the same. Anyway, as far as the title, "The Legend of Link" doesn't really ring a bell. I think the name has more to do with the fact that Zelda is the central female character in the all of the games, despite her lack of appearances in some (along with Midna in TP). It just reinforced the fact that she is an important dynamic character throughout the game series.

This is where I have to strongly disagree. Marin =/= Zelda. Also Marin =/= a parallel version of Zelda. The only thing Marin has in common with Zelda is the fact that she looks like her. This is a dream of the Wind Fish. Marin is The Wind Fish's creation, not Link's. And just because they look exactly the same doesn't mean they ARE the same. Perfect example: Identical twins. Exactly the same in just about every way and yet are two completely different people.

Zelda isn't necessarily always the central female character. She wasn't in LA, Marin was. She wasn't in MM, I'd say Anju was. There are just sometimes when Zelda is simply not relative to the plot of the game. Therefore she is not included. Or her role is reduced.

The very first game was called "The Legend of Zelda". But the second game is called "The Adventure of Link". Most people are going to recognize the franchise because of "The Legend of Zelda". The game may bear her name. But it is Link's story.

Back on topic: I think Link and Zelda would work very nicely in Twilight Princess. For a time, Midna and Zelda were one. So perhaps Zelda fell in love while she watched Link go through everything for a person he barely knew.

I still say that there is a connection between Marin and Zelda... But anyway, I do know for a fact that Zelda does have an important role in MM, despite her lack of appearances throughout the game. The memory that Link has of Zelda is very important being that he remembers spending time with her before he left. Zelda also says that The Song of Time reminded her of "them", which usually what one refers to when they are talking about themself and another person as a couple. She also states that she believes that he will return, which we know happens because she is able to foresee the future. I would also like to point out the fact that Link is staring into space when thinking about her, and that when he recieves the ocarina it says "This reminds you of Zelda." The thought of Zelda pretty much keeps Link driven throughout the entire game, basically. Therefore Zelda remains as a dominant character that is associated in Link's life. And as far as Anju... Anju is in love with Kafei. There's really no evidence that Link has feelings for her, anyway, and besides that she's older than him. And adult and a kid does not work...

I agree with you with TP, though. They really do make the perfect match (though they do in all of the games for me, lol).

You're misunderstanding what I'm saying. Connection or not, Marin is NOT Zelda. Nor will she ever will be.

Zelda is not a dominant character in Majora's Mask, that doesn't make her role less significant, it's just smaller. Without remembering her, Link wouldn't have remembered the Song of Time. Though I don't think she was the driving force for Link in Majora's Mask. For the simple fact that Link was on a personal journey. His driving force was finding his friend. And once he realized the danger Termina was in, it was stepping up and saving the people from a horrible fate. He had much more on his mind than "omg so in love with Zelda".

Who Anju was in love with has nothing to do with the fact that she was the leading lady in this game. Who Link loves actually has no bearing on this game. Majora's Mask was more or less telling the people's of Termina stories through Link's eyes. It wasn't necessarily about him, but other people and how their lives are affected by catastrophe. Link was simply there to witness it all. Just because Anju is not Link's leading lady doesn't mean she isn't the leading lady. Being in love doesn't really constitute that role anyway. Case in point: Final Fantasy 7.

Sorry this is horribly off topic. I really have nothing else to say about TP. D:

Anju is not the leading female role in MM. Zelda still plays a signifigant role in the game, being that Link is always reminded of her whenever he has to play the ocarina. Anyway, if you're saying that she's not the leading role in the game since she's not in it, no one really is then, simply because other people have problems that need to be worked out, such as Romani and Cremia. So, maybe then, there is no central female role in the game. Zelda still has a signifigant place in it, though.

Well, this is REALLY off topic, but I felt that it would lighten the mood... There was one time when I was playing MM that in the beginning Link had no hearts and thus died after falling off his horse. When it restarted, Ocarinas filled both the item AND mask screen... Weird glitch, or what? *cough* so off topic *cough*

I wasn't implying that Zelda's role was insignificant. It was simply reduced. She was given no character development and basically no screen time, aside from the one scene where Link relearns the Song of Time. In Majora's Mask, her character was flat. On the other hand, Anju's character shone. We saw and understood her plight and we did everything in our power to help her. The longest and most involved quest in Majora's Mask was reuniting Anju and Kafei, something Anju had asked Link to help her with. Because honestly, without doing the Anju/Kafei quest (or any of the other quests for that matter), Majora's Mask would've been ridiculously short.

In essence, the story was not about Zelda (or really Link for that matter). It was telling other people's stories through the eyes of Link. It had nothing to do with Ganondorf, the Triforce, or the Goddesses, things that are generally central to a LoZ plot. Since these elements were missing, Zelda simply was not needed to advance the plot, outside of that one scene. And even then, I think that scene was unnecessary as Link remembers everything that happened in the previous time line. So I would think it was safe to say that he would remember the songs he learned. That scene was more for the player's benefit, since everyone may not have played OoT before playing MM.

This, as a matter of fact, is very similar to Twilight Princess. I think Zelda's character was more dynamic in this game, as her character developed with Midna's. She was already noble and regal and we watched her grow as Midna did.

Zelda's moment was in the most critical part of the whole game..if Link hadn't remembered her, he and all of Termina would have died: if that doesn't qualify one to be the leading lady of a film/game than what does? She was there in spirit, if not body throughout the whole game, even fulfilling her traditional role: wisdom. She gave Link the tool and wisdom to be able to suceed.

I can think of one good reason why she didn't get any development, she was developed in OoT so more development would be redundant. The way I see it, Sheik was nothing more than a manifestation of her qualities ( tomboy-ish, wise, incredibly brave, eloquent and focused ) so why would we need more? Zelda's lack of presence does not make her unimportant to Link however..I agree with everything Twilight Mistress has said about that scene's relevance to Link's feelings: it was a look into what was on his mind when he thought of her, and her importance was implied by the fact that he was going to die...and he was lost to the world in the memory of her.
So the scene made a point about her importance to him. As for the rest of the game, he had other things to worry about rather than moping about being far away from her.

I have a theory about Anju: she's Zelda's parallel in a sense in Termina, as Kafei is to Link. I could explain, but my essay with Love_of_Zelda already did it.

That depends on how you see Sheik. I know you've stated your position on that, but if you consider Sheik to OoT Zelda like Midna is to TP Zelda, you'll also see OoT Zelda had the same thing. It makes her dynamic as well ( and another parallel to TP! )

I have to agree with gliderpilotgirl on this one. Zelda is a very dynamic player, no matter how much time she has on the screen. Don't forget, like movies, it doesn't show us all of the details of what happens. There are things that happen off screen as well. That's where you have to fit and place the pieces together to actually understand a character's importance in any story, such as Zelda in OoT, MM, and TP. She is a very important character.

And I believe that since Link was sent back in time, before Link and Zelda had actually met, Link does not remember what happened during the alternate timeline. This would be due to the fact that the master sword was laid to rest and thus he is unable to remain in that "flow" of time. Therefore the interactions between Link and Zelda at the end of OoT and MM are very important, being that it is implying that time itself cannot even separate the two; one is essential for the other's progress. Without Link, Zelda would not have been able to stop Ganondorf on her own. Without Zelda, Link would not be blessed with her knowledge and wisdom, something of which we see her constantly provide throughout OoT as Sheik. Also, in MM she tells him to be careful, meaning to avoid any conflicts and fights throughout his journey as much as possible. When Link remembers this scene, it provides him the will to survive; he is reminded of the sense of his purpose and the fact that he has the ability to protect others.

Agreed. I think that was exactly what the scene in MM did: it made implications that more happened off-screen that we didn't see between Link and Zelda. The Zelda of the past would have no memories of the alternate future: this means a whole new bond was formed between them in the months between the ending of OoT and the beginning of MM. Given the content of what she actually said to him, it's not hard to assume it's romance either.

Anyways, Zelda is always important, and it's what she represents that's always present in some degree: the voice of wisdom. In LA, she was Marin, or it can be argued served as the template for the Windfish to create Marin from. In OoT and WW, she was Sheik and Tetra, and guided Link through them before he recognized her true form. So finally, in TP, while she may have given her bodily form up for a time, her spirit was alive in Midna, making her relevant. I think that's why she deserves the to be the series' heroine. I'm always amazed when I visit other sites at the lack of fondness she inspires, or just the amount of negative criticism despite her selflessness and compassion. She's Link's guide, and without her, the adventure goes nowhere.

I'm going to have to disagree on the memory thing, because of several reasons.
1) When Link is returned to being a child, his first act is look himself up and down like he is in shock...seeing himself suddenly a child again. He obviously was used to seeing his adult form.
2) The beginning of MM tells like MM itself is a legend being recounted, and within this legend, the events of OoT are mentionned. ( "Travelling through time" )
In order for the events of OoT to be known, someone would have to remember and tell them. ( Link )
3) The interview with Aonuma. He says Link had a little talk about Ganondorf with Zelda, implying Link knows perfectly well about him. The only way for this to be possible would be if Link remembered.
I think what we have here is Link has essentially been "outside of time" and is not affected, like in MM.

But anyways, carrying on:

Something I noticed. There's something special about that Link and Zelda's relationship that only otherwise Saria demonstrated: personal concern for Link and his safety, despite the situation he leaves them in. To me, that confirms that they truly love him: they don't care merely about what he can do for them.
In TP, Zelda demonstrates this too, even when Link has been a vicious growling beast. While I don't think she knows him well enough ( unlike OoT Zelda ) to truly love him, I think it's a start. Ilia too shows this, and Midna much later, when I feel she started to love him.

I never implied or said that Zelda was not important in the game. Just unneccessary. Link remembered everything from the past. He did not need to remember Zelda to play that song. As I've stated, this scene was more for the player's benefit than it was Link's. The only real benefit it served for Link was her telling him about the Goddess of Time. But after that she isn't relevant to the plot. So she isn't included or given any character development, which I don't think is because she got development in OoT. Zelda was growing up in a completely different atmosphere. She's not necessarily going to pick up the exact same traits she had when she was on the run for 7 years. Different circumstances help to mold and shape people into who they are. Zelda isn't neccessarily going to be the same Zelda she was in the Adult timeline.

But obviously she was put into the game, therefore she served some importance, despite her role being minor.

This makes me think that Link eats, breathes, and sleeps nothing else but Zelda. That his only will to survive is Zelda? I would think his will to survive stems from the fact that he likes living. Because you know, living is a good thing. It's nice to have someone to come home to, but if that's the only reason he's living, then what is he gonna do when she dies? Commit suicide? Zelda is not the center of the universe. She is apart of it. She is one of the many pieces that fits together to help make up Link's world. She represents the people, yes. But just like any ruler, she is *not* the people themselves. Link would've been a hero regardless if Zelda needed him or not. I think it is simply intrinsic of his nature and personality to help people in need, whether Zelda's there to guide him or not.

Does any of that even make sense?

Anyway, back to Twilight Princess Link and Zelda. I don't find it difficult to see a romance blossoming between the two of them behind the scenes. Link had a calling outside of Ordon and becoming mayor now. I don't think he completely walks away from his home, but his future now encompasses the rest of Hyrule as well as it's princess.

Zelda is necessary for the plot development, otherwise they wouldn't have put her in. He didn't remember the song of time, obviously, which is why he remembers when time is running out and ClockTown is about to be consumed by the moon (quote: "Memories of Zelda come rushing back to you..." "You remembered the song of time!"). Therefore, yes, it is a necessary scene. Now, on to him needing Zelda... It's not that she's his entire universe, but she is essential for his strength and courage. Without wisdom there would be no courage, and without courage there would be no wisdom. Now, although there isn't any reference to the triforce or anything of those sorts, do not forget that Termina is a parallel version of Hyrule which is still likely effected by its power. Therefore, again, Zelda is essential to the plot.

And as far as Link and Zelda in TP... I thought that they were a perfect match since the beginning. Their personalities definately go well together; when put together they are like two halves that make a whole. I suppose, though, that this could apply to all Zelda games. :D

I feel like I will just be repeating TM, but I agree. What mattered in that scene was that he remembered Zelda before anything else. Her memory just unlocked the solution as a side effect. If the dev's meant her and their relationship to be irrelevant, they could easily have said simply that it was the Song of Time and his quest he remembered, not her. I believe that scene was meant to demonstrate his feelings for her while advancing the plot.

It seems to be the same argument I often see regarding the last scene in OoT. People take it apart, reason how it is relevant to the plot...but that's the beauty. It doesn't have to be relevant. What matters is that Link DID return. The same goes with MM: he DID remember her.

Why do you believe she wasn't included?
I really can't see any situation how they COULD have integrated her into the plot. They could have given her a double in Termina, but all that would have done is present Link with a possible dilemma in the end when I don't believe there was meant to be one: he wasn't supposed to want to stay in Termina and not return. This was supposed to be a short trip, a side-story, not permanent.

Yes it does. What you are saying is that in essence Link is a hero, and would be one without her.

I think saying "Link eats..breathes..etc" is a little extreme, but I do believe that like any truly human hero, there are people to whom impart strength to him. I believe Zelda is the foremost one, as she's the closest to his heart. That scene in MM told me that. She gave him strength when he needed it most, and I find the most awesome heroes are the ones who fight for love as well as what's right. If Link "had a girl" she'd be it. She sent him off, and is the one believing in him behind the scenes.

Agreed. I liked what Saami said, I just feel it's a common quality of ALL the Link's: meant for bigger things although they will never forget their past. With personalities, this Zelda seemed softer, less insistant when it came to Link than others. I see them being a bit too quiet for each other, but I agree their roles will bring them together, make them one.

That scene was actually a flashback. Link had already seen Zelda before he even went to Termina. So yes that scene was unnecessary because Link had already relearned the Song of Time. (Though I believe he already knew it before he went to see Zelda). Not everyone who played MM played Ocarina of Time. Therefore it was for the player's benefit not Link's because either way, he already knew the song.

Exactly! Zelda was not included because there was no real place for her in the plot. There can be a "Legend of Zelda" without Zelda. Because the legend isn't about her, it's about Link. The first Legend of Zelda may have been about Zelda, but eventually, it grew and changed and the focus shifted from the "Princess who needs a hero" to "A humble boy becoming a great hero". That's not saying that Zelda will always be irrelevant or unneeded, because obviously she will be. She is the epitome of wisdom and Link does need her. But it is no longer Zelda's story. It's Link's.

Again I agree with gliderpilotgirl; I have to say that Zelda is essential for the plot in MM, because you see, Link really did forget how to play the Song of Time. If you think about it, there are other songs from OoT that he relearns throughout the game, which would then also fall under the same "uneccessary" category if they were for the player's benefit. Link might remember the important things during the alternate timeline, such as his encounters with Zelda and Ganondorf, but it cannot be expected that he should remember minor details relating to the songs. Link only remembers how to play the Song of Time upon remembering the memory he has of Zelda. Also, by him remembering Zelda and only Zelda, it portrays that she is the one that helped to shape him into who he is. I suppose you could say that she "awakened" the hero inside of him, rather, giving him a direction to follow. Now, before when I was saying that the game was called "Zelda" for a reason, I did not mean that it was told through her perspective (though many times I've often wondered what it would be like). It's about how the princess is seen through the eyes of the hero.

You're still misunderstanding what I'm saying.

BEFORE Link ends up in Termina, he goes to Zelda. We agree on that, yes? She gives him the Ocarina, yes? And then teaches him the Song of Time, yes? If this scene was absolutely essential for Link, explain to me how he got the Ocarina in the first place? He gave it back to Zelda at the end of OoT. But since he has it in MM before Skull Kid stole it, Link had to go back to see Zelda so she could give it to him and teach him the song. THEN he went on his journey to find Navi. He ran into Skull Kid got changed into a Deku Scrub had to wait those three days get his ocarina back and play the Song of Time.

Since you're so adamant about him forgetting the song, for the sake of the argument, let's say he did forget the song. He had already seen Zelda and had already relearned the song. So essentially, it doesn't matter if he remembers the song from the previous timeline or not. He had already seen Zelda and relearned it. The flashback is played because the player may or may not remember the button combinations on their controller to play the song. Or astonishingly enough, the player may not have played OoT. Therefore, the flashback scene was added as a way to show the combination.

All the songs that were used in OoT and reused in MM, I believe the scene serves only to show the button combinations as opposed to Link forgetting them. Because I don't think he did forget them.

And this is where I stand by my "Link's world does not revolve around Zelda" argument. And my reasons for this are stated above, so I won't get into it. But anyway back to Twilight Princess, what else is there to say?

What I'm saying is that Link forgets to play the Song of Time during his journey, which is why it is necessary for him to relearn the song a second time. Also, if it was truly for the player's benefit, then why haven't there been similar scenes in other Zelda games that are a sequal to another? If Zelda was truly unnecessary she would not have been put in the game in the first place; you cannot simply focus on the role that she plays during that scene alone as the scene most likely holds a deeper purpose than what appears on the surface, which is to be expected when interpreting Zelda games, (such as TP).

When Link remembers Zelda, not only does he remember the song, but he also remembers the fact that the Song of Time is able to manipulate time itself, which is the key to progressing through this particular game. Had Link not recalled this scene with Zelda he would not have remembered the song or the power associated with the song. Thus he, along with other people that lived in Termina, would have perished. This is due to the simple fact that Zelda bestowed on him a certain amount of the wisdom that she had, helping to guide and protect him on his journey. Therefore without the guidance of her wisdom, his courage would not have prevailed. Heroes do not always succeed; various obstacles are thrown at them and some they cannot overcome. And don't forget, Zelda sees prophetic visions that foretell the future; she obviously had a feeling that he would run into a problem that was associated with time, making it very important for her to teach him the song. Now, although this event occurred before he left, it doesn't mean that he remembers it during his journey; you tend to forget the things that you do not entirely understand until a time comes when it requires you to use it. This is exactly what happened; he ran into a problem that required this former knowledge that he had forgotten prior to that situation. Thus, it is an important scene.

And as far as the title, I'm sticking to what I had said earlier.

No hard feelings, btw. This is only a heated argument; nothing personal. :P

I don't think for one moment that Link forgot the Song of Time from his alternate future, just THIS Zelda would have no memory of teaching it to him so she did it again unknowingly.

He does remember other songs and this is evidenced by the comments about the other returning songs:
"It's Epona's Song! The song of two who are bound by trust. "
"You remembered the Song of Storms! This turbulent tune, which you've heard before.."

I guess you could say we've reached an understanding on the scene being for the player's benefit, just I also believe they wanted to remind us of Link and Zelda's relationship. Either way, considering how OoT ended, they needed this scene to tie the two together...even so, the mood change from satisfied and happy to depressed and moody seemed a bit contrived. Maybe they weren't planning a sequel when OoT was first made.

I don't think Link world revolves around Zelda but I'm pretty much repeating myself. I believe she is the most important of many to him, because she's closest to his heart.

I do agree with TM in Zelda being the woman behind the hero though: if there was someone who's both motivated and enabled him...it's her.

What's left to talk about for TP? Lots. I just find TP less interesting because as someone else wisely said, the characters were somewhat rehashes of existing ones: the situation is the same. If I am arguing against Ilia, I am arguing against Malon and Saria. If I argue for Midna or Zelda, it's the same as OoT Zelda.

For TP itself...I couldn't get past the "business face" Zelda put on...for some reason, I feel she lacked the humanity OoT Zelda had at each step. Or else she was just more reserved about it. TP Zelda seemed to see Link more as a chosen tool than a person with feelings.

I stick by what I said in my previous post. On another note, if Zelda does not remember the events in the alternate timeline, I do not think Link does, either. This would explain why he is found wandering endlessly for a 'friend' in MM; he's not really sure what he's looking for, really. I think both Link and Zelda have deja moments where they might feel like they have experienced certain things that have happened before, but simply cannot make sense of it. Zelda sends Link back in time, her intentions being that he is to relive his childhood, thus his memory of of the alternate timeline would have to be erased. Now, that's not to say that he forgets everything, mind you. He must have had vague images of important figures, such as Zelda and Ganondorf, in order to return to the courtyard. This would again explain why he forgot the songs he learned in the previous timeline.

And as far as TP... I think that actions speak louder than words. Zelda is very aware of the amount of pain and suffering that Link was forced to endure and thus blames herself. In this game I think that she is more melancholy, upset because she was powerless when having witnessed her country fall to the spreading darkness. As a result, she feels she has to be more restrained, fearful of affecting those who get close to her. Also, it can be argued that Midna is Zelda's shadow form, which I have concluded a while ago. Therefore, when intermersed as one, Zelda conveys her emotions for Link through Midna, which would explain why Midna feels that her heart has been touched by Zelda's light.

As is your right: but remember, Link was sent back in time...Zelda wasn't. If he went back, the child Zelda would not have lived the time yet that Link did therefore would not remember it. She and the Adult Zelda are two different people in two different times.
Again, this quote proves he remembers: " This turbulent tune which you've heard before.." Link learned that song as an adult in OoT. Besides, how could he warn Zelda unless he knew about the future? that quote from Aonuma proves it.

He acts completely different too: if he had no memory of his erased future, why's he bearing a sword, a new shield and having Epona? He's likely trying to recover what he had as an adult.

I was of the opinion that Link left in MM because he was disenchanted with life...he's a kid again and has lost his purpose. I think his "friend" was merely an excuse...though he did need one.


I fully believe in the tie between Midna and Zelda, it bodes well for Link and Zelda's future. Zelda and Midna truly are "two sides of the same coin"...they are the same where it counts. I think Zelda may have influenced Midna, but not controlled her..I feel it's likely Zelda shared Midna's growing fondness for Link as it developed. She was able to feel Midna's other emotions. ( her suffering )

It really seems that it's more deja vu than anything; when referring to him hearing the song before my thoughts are that he feels as though he's heard it before. It's that feeling that something has happened before. Don't get me wrong, though. I've always wanted to believe that Zelda and Link remembered what happened during the alternate timeline, so I'm kind of back and forth with this one. It really doesn't matter, though, if he did or not. What matters is that relationship between Link and Zelda still envoked certain feelings that they feel towards one another, despite being an entirely different timeline.

And for TP they really are like two sides of the same coin. I beleive that Zelda had an impact on Midna, though, which is why she started to look at Link in a different light; Zelda's feelings for Link influenced Midna's feelings for Link's, allowing her to see Link for who he truly is. Also, at the very end, when Midna bids Link farewell she is most likely aware that Link's better half is Zelda, which is thus portrayed with an image of Link and Zelda standing side by side as Midna passes through the mirror.

Oh, and that would explain why a mirror is used as a gateway to the twilight realm; Zelda and Midna are a reflection of one another. In the beginning of the game, Midna also referrs to Zelda as the "twilight princess".

You've pretty much nailed the consequence of him not remembering...if he doesn't, the chance is there he doesn't remember all that happened between him and Zelda as adult: but I feel that regardless, his strong feelings for her remain..and they are influencing him to feel the same in this new timeline.

I don't think the idea that only Zelda fell in love with Link should be seriously considered..I think Midna truly did as well...she was showing concern before even Zelda merged with her. But I do agree that Midna likely felt she was doing him a favour by removing herself from the equation: two Princesses and Link would have had to choose.

On a side note, what is it with the Zelda series and parallel versions? Marin/Zelda. Malon/Cremia+Romani, and Midna/Zelda. All so similar, yet different in a way. It always seems as though Nintendo will remove one version though to avoid conflict ...Marin ceased to exist, Midna broke the mirror and Zelda being the primary in MM, which is probably why she had no parallel to make him tempted to stay in Termina. Because of that, choosing either Cremia/Romani or Malon was IMO ultimately irrelevant.

I think that Nintendo likes adding in certain twists to the storylines to make them seem fresh; no one wants to do the same thing twice. It provides the story with more depth rather than explicitly stating the meaning or purpose, which is what keeps us coming back for more. Zelda and Link will always be perfect for one another, though. :zelink:

I think of the other Zelda girls as something more than a parallel of Zelda. The more I think about it, the more it seems to me that every girl in Zelda has a specific quality Zelda possess and it is focused on. And yet, the girl is a person all her own, as opposed to being simply a "parallel version of Zelda", because if that were the case, why not simply put Zelda in the game?

The best example of this I can think of at the moment is Marin. Outside of the fact that Link mistakes her for Zelda, the adventurous quality seemed to shine. And that was something obviously intrinsic to Zelda's personality. And yet, Marin was not Zelda. She had a specific quality of Zelda's and yet was her own person with her own feelings separate from Zelda. I think Marin loved Link, not because Zelda loved him (because Marin doesn't even know Zelda) but because she got to know him and it progressed from there.

And I think the same can be applied to Midna. In Midna, I see Zelda's compassion (well much later I do). And I think Link cared for Midna but not because of Zelda, because he barely knew her. I would want TP Link to love Zelda because she's Zelda. Not because she reminds him of another woman.

The reason why gliderpilotgirl pointed out the fact that Marin appears to be a parallel version of Zelda is simply because Link was dreaming; during your sleep things appear abstract and for the most part are not always clear. Thus that would explain why Zelda appeared in his dream as Marin. And even if Marin is her own person, she is fictional, existing only in Link's dream.

As far as Link's feelings towards Zelda, I think there is more to it than what we see. Link takes an instant liking to Zelda upon their first meeting. Link, growling at first, quickly calms down and walks over to her after she turns around. As he is doing so Midna snickers and rolls her eyes, a sign that she had a feeling that he would take a shine towards the princess. There's also something else that is of great relevance, which is usually not taken into consideration when looking at TP; animals have the ability to sense a person's personality: their behaviour, attitude, and nature, which would then apply to Link as he is a wolf for most of the times he is with Zelda. Thus I think it is safe to say that he pretty much has an idea of what kind of person she is like, making it very easy for him to develop feelings for her. There are other signs as well, like when he is upset to see Zelda's unconcious body and he is about to rush in without thinking. They also stare at one another before being rudely interupted by Ganondorf's spirit. Oh, and let's not forget that memorable moment when Link offers his hand to Zelda; it kind of takes the same spin that OoT had when Link and Zelda were holding hands.

Midna might have had strong feelings for Link, possibly even loved Link, but I don't think he felt for her in the same way. I think he looked at her as a really close friend that he could relate to, but nothing really more than that. I've noticed a trend in the Zelda games; Link's side-kick always ends up falling for him, but he does not share the same feelings. Examples from previous games would be Navi from OoT, Tatl from MM, and now Midna from TP.

Actually, the inhabitants of Kohonlint as well as the island itself is a dream of the Windfish, not Link's. Marin is the Windfish's creation, which is why the Owl as well as the monsters kept warning Link that if he woke the Windfish, the island (and it's inhabitants) would disappear. They didn't say "if you wake up, the island will disappear". And there is no evidence to even suggest the Windfish knew about Zelda or even Hyrule. And even if she is "only a dream", that doesn't change the fact that feelings were there between them. And Marin becomes more than a dream, as shown at the end of Link's Awakening. The Windfish granted her wish.

If there is any romance between Link and Zelda in Twilight Princess, I believe it happens after the game ends. For the simple fact that Link's affections obviously lie with Midna. This Link, more or less, wears his emotions on his sleeve. You can easily tell what he is thinking or feeling at the moment by the look on his face. Link reacts most notably to Ilia and later to Midna.

With Zelda it was more or less business. The two barely knew each other as opposed to Ilia, who Link grew up with. And Midna who Link (theoretically) spent months with. Link and Zelda simply did not have that kind of time. So if there was a romance between them, it happened off screen, once Link embraced his life as a hero.

Ooh boy, where to start? (In case you couldn't tell, I'm insanely happy that there's actual discussion going on! :D)

Well, first off, I'm more than interested in the MM and LA discussions, but those should really be talked about in the proper thread, instead of here.

My feelings on TP:

Link and Zelda's interaction in TP is indeed limited, but I'm agreeing with gliderpilotgirl and TM. It's what little we did see that matters, and you have to read between the lines.

Did Link have more time with Ilia and Midna than he did with her? Well. This is actually not quite true. Zelda's soul was inside Midna for over half the game, and obviously she was quite aware of what was going on around her while she was inside her. I don't think that she was controlling Midna, but I do think that she was watching, and it's possible that she influenced Midna, making her less harsh and more compassionate. So really, Zelda had all that time to get to know Link better, through Midna. They were as 'one' for a time. So if they were as one, wouldn't it make sense that Zelda shared in Midna's emotions during that time, including those for Link?

The few moments they have together are incredibly dynamic and full of chemistry. Link's reactions to Zelda are quite notable, both in wolf and in human form. He looks at her with awe, and something like longing. Even Midna recognizes it! When he sees her unconsious body in the throne room he starts to rush to her without even looking around first. And the expression on his face when her soul comes back to her body? Priceless. As is the way she looks at him. *sighs happily* Then Ganondorf had to go and ruin the moment. <_< But Link immediately moves to defend her, as he does later when there's that explosion in the castle. That scene where Zelda asks him for his aid- it's a complete throw back to OoT. <3

I don't deny that Link cares for Midna and Ilia both. But with Ilia I always felt it was more onesided emotion, friendshipy. And Link clearly has moved on- no matter how much he or she might want otherwise, he's a different person than he once was. He's grown and moved on while she has remained the same and will most likely stay that way.

As for Midna, this relationship doesn't trouble me very much because it's so very similar to Zelink- since Midna is basically the shadow side of Zelda. It's quite clear that Midna loves Link. I'm fairly certain of that. What's more debatable is if Link's feelings about her are more than friendship. *shrugs* However, the door has also closed on that possible romance.

I couldn't agree more with you, Alantie. There is definately something between Link and Zelda; I just think that the developers wanted us to pick out the little hints that they left floating out there, waiting to be found. It's more interesting when you have to look between the lines and maybe even under the lines; it would be boring if things were explicitly defined all the time. That's HOW they get you hooked on the Zelda games, because you're forever wondering what's going to happen next, whether it be an event or something that triggers a bond between two characters, such as between Link and Zelda.

On another note, I think Link also knows a little more about Zelda than what we think he does. As a wolf Link gains more senses which aids him in his quest, and as a result he is able to notice certain things that would otherwise be overlooked as a human. Wolves and other animals are able to sense someone's personality and their nature, which is hinted at when Link talks to some of the animals when he is a wolf (eg. animal: "I can sense that you're pure hearted..." or something to that extent). This would then apply to his interaction with Zelda, thus he had a feeling of what she was like from the very beginning which is likely what attracted him to her (If you couldn't already tell I'm an animal lover). ^^