Edit: Okay I know this is a very old topic but I just edited my post to become less rude, cause I got to admit, my words were rude against Malinkfans.

Facts that the games give you about Malon.

Malon is a minor character that appeared in many Zelda games, she's been loved by a lot of Zelda fans and even has her own fanbase.

I clearly understand why fans love Malon, and Malon to be together with Link. Because she's casua, she's not miss perfect like Princess Zelda and does not hold any key to the main story about the mastersword/triforce you name it.

List of what we know about Malon during the games:

• Malon has been in 6 games
• Link never actually showed her feelings towards her, neither did she to Link

• Cremia is often used as a MalonxLink fact because of the scene where she hugs Link and Link gets a warm feeling, however Cremia is also the same person who is in love with Kafei (Romani and even Anju's mother hints you that)

Summary of Malon/Link interaction

• Ocarina of time
• Link does not express his feelings towards her, he stands there like he talks to other NCP's.
• There is not MalonxLink scene in the game, not even hinted
• Malon forgets who Link is during the seven years and finally remembers him when he wins epona and saves the ranch.

• Malon wishes for a knight in shining armour
• Talon jokes about Link marrying Malon
• Malon never shows true love feelings for Link, maybe a flirtly when she was a child
• Malon does have a little temper when it comes to her lazy father (who wouldn't managing a big ranch)

• Majora's mask.
• Cremia and Romani could represent the character Malon never had in Oot.
• Romani likes Link
• Link has Epona

• Okay lets talk about Malon in Oracle of Seasons.
• She's there for a tradeitem
• No Link/Malon interaction
  [

• Fourswords adventures
• Malon was a little more active and you had too help her out. But when she was back to her "papa" (XD very cute) she didn't show much of loving towards you.
• No Link/Malon interaction/ even though Malon following you was cute

• Minishcap:
• 100 rupees on milk???? XDDDD

• Twilight Princess:
• Ilia is a substition of Malon, but then again Ilia is a total different character like Oot Link is to TP Link.

There done, edited it. XD man what a long debate!

EDIT: Moved to "Beyond Friendship," since this topic seems to be the place to list reasons for why we don't think Malink is canon, rather than an instruction manual for newbies. Cheers. :D -Luna

It seems to me that you have most everything covered. I totally agree with you though, I have not a clue how Malon got to be so popular :blink:

Some things you might want to add though are perhaps some things from the OoT manga? Its also clear in it that the Malink thing is never going to happen. Malon herself acknowledges it when she hears how eager Link if to find the Princess.

Also, Malon isn't a vital character to the plot. The game would have been pretty much the same with or without her. Take her out, and the storyline hardly changes, except that Link gets Epona a different way. Take Zelda out and its a whole different game. The story would not survive without her. All in all, Malon is simply an overrated character. She's a sweet girl, but not the one for Link, and not pivitol in the story. I dunno if this helps you out or not crazyfreak. . .

I like Malon... :unsure:

She doesn't have to be Link's romantic interest but she is as interesting to me as Anju and Kafei from MM.

You can like Malon CM :D What crazyfreak is doing is writing an article why we don't thing Malink is the true pairing of Zelda. It's not a I Hate Malon article. I like Malon too, kind of the same way I like Tifa from FFVII, but I don't believe Tifa is with Cloud, same way I don't think Malon is with Link, ya know?

I'm sorry to say this...

but Malon must die.

For the next fiction I'm making. Hee...and no, it's not a bash, it's a plot development.

And you're right; her character has very little depth at all!

PS: Where did the knight in shining armour come from? :unsure:

Rofl. You're gonna kill Malon in your next fic? How sad! :lol:

Really, her character has no depth. She's just a random character in my opinion.

The knight in shining armor thing comes from one of the gossip stones, I believe. It tells you that Malon the ranch girl dreams of a knight in shining armor who will come to her, or something to that effect. It's also in the manga. Typical dreams of a young girl :D Every girl wants a knight.

Correction: Every girl wants Link.

He's hotness rolled into sexiness. B)

Yes well Malon is a minor character that features in some Zelda games, but from all those games she was in. None gives us true depth in her character.
her depth:
-Malon wants a knight in shining armour.
-Malon likes to call people names. So I think she's a bit of teasing/girly girl stuff especially with the constant "tee-hee" or "hee-hee"
-Malon works hard
-Malon rode the horse track at Lon Lon ranch say's a gossip stone
-Malon loves to sing Epona's song because she learned that from her mother
-Malon sings at night
-Malon does stuff secretly and does not stand up for her rights at Lon Lon ranch when Ingo took the place over.
-Malon is helpless because she can not overcome the power Ingo has
-Malon adores Epona

that's her depth but erhm well I can make the same list about the chickenlady, Mido, King Zora ect ect... But I don't feel like.


And like I said Malon is a Minor-character who is totally overrated.

But really believe me I have nothing against her, because there is nothing to be against her of.
She's hard working, is just like a girl, likes to sing ect.
So...... =P that's my point.

Wow, CF, I wholeheartedly agree with you! You covered pretty much everything.

Though, I don't really like Malon very much. I actually find her a bit annoying, and it's not only because of the singing. It's her dialogue. She giggles at stuff that's not funny, and "fairyboy" is something a valleygirl would say. Actually, what I see her as: a valleygirl. SO not Link's type. :huh:

A lot of Malinkers claim Malon gave Epona to Link and that's why she's important in the game. That's not even right! Link WON Epona in a race against Ingo! Epona was supposed to go to Ganondorf, and Malon had no power over that whatsoever.

I don't think Malon is supposed to be considered a strong character. She's actually more of a damsel in distress than Zelda, methinks. She was powerless against stupid ordinary Hylian Ingo, and it was Link who "rescued" her and the ranch from Ingo's "rule". At least Zelda was doing SOMETHING over the course of those seven years... (Sheik).

exactly!
Plus you can beat the game without Epona!
I think Malon, Talon and Ingo is there mostly to cover Epona up, like Epona has a background story.

Yeah the overhyperactive girly thing wasn't my favorite either. But maybe that's what makes Malon, Malon.

(I like Cremia better)

You should also mention that Link was engaged to a TREE. And there is no LinkxTree luvin' going on.

Malon is okay, in my book. In the game I didn't think too much of her one way or the other, but I thought she was really cute in the manga. Plus, it's shown in the manga she only has a .5 second crush on Link which evaporates when she sees how important Zelda is to him. She realizes he isn't her knight.

Which leads us to wonder... Who is it, then?

Cue the music from the Twilight Zone.

Erhm wel most Malon-fans don't think the manga is canon (which ofcourse is) and follow strickly to the game.

That's why I mostly debated stuff from the game, I know the situation about the manga XD it was nice chapter.

Yes. Yes it was. Now, back to topic.

EVEN MALON REALISES THAT HE'S NOT HER DAMN KNIGHT!

And when did Malon make the moves on him? Hmm? May we ask that? Zelda at least says she looks sorry he's going, and she's damn singing that he's gone (okay, she's not that was cruel)

Yes, Malon acknowledges that Link is NOT her knight. "Alas, how short was Malon's love," is what she says. No Linky poo for her knight!

Seriously, how on earth did Malon become popular? Its like, the cukoo lady could have become just as popular, or the dog woman in Hyrule Market. I just don't get how such a random, minor character became so friggen popular :blink:

She was young, had a name, had a personality, and was a mild part of the storyline (it's thanks to her that we could wake Talon up and get him to move out of the way to the Princess).

Actually, though, she's not the one who gives us Epona. It just occurred to me. Ingo is. Now, one might argue that Romani from Majora's Mask, who is basically Malon's double, gave Link Epona, but if they don't bear the same name, they're not the same person.

Malon is like the realist's opinion of Link's girl.

Zelda is like the dreamer's opinion of Link's girl.

Therefore, since Link, as according to CGM, is smexyness taking form, it can only be fair he gets a dream girl. :D :link: :zelda:

Can't argue with that logic! :lol:

Crazyfreak! You should mention this quote!!

For example, MaLink is meant for those realistic people. ZeLink is how Miyamoto wanted it. Pure fantasy. That's why I love your signature. You should make a theme of that. Who care about reality? Does an sword wielding elf sound realistic to you?

Don't get me wrong though, I love Malon. The reason I like her so much is because of Marin. If Marin was never created (by Miyamoto looking like Zelda), Malon wouldn't be around. She's only a cameo appearance, that's all.

Score one! :zelda:

Personally, Malon isn't one of my favorite characters.

The whole Zelda-Link-Malon love triangle debate is probably because Zelda and Malon are the only girls in Ocarina of Time who can logically be paired with Link. Salink (Link/Saria) and Rulink (Link/Ruto) have the whole "different races" problem.

Also, no offense, but Malinkers don't really have hard evidence, and can easily be countered. An example is when Link wins the Cucco-Findin' Game with Talon for the first time. Talon asks Link if he wants to marry Malon. Whether Link says no or yes, the outcome is the same--Talon laughs and says he was just kidding. Some Malinkers will take that as a Malink hint, but I think it really was a joke on Talon's part, and is not meant to be taken seriously.

To be honest, crazyfreak... I think you've hit it right on the mark. XD

And it's true that MaLinkers don't have hard evidence. The only thing they have is the whole "knight" thing, but one, that was mentioned in the gossip stones so it's just more of a "OOOHHH DAAARRRK SEEECRET..." and two, the ZeLink is SO strong in Ocarina of Time it just plain blots out MaLink. (I mean... Link was pretty much looking for her once he turned into an adult... and the last scene? That made me want to cry it was so beautiful. ;_; ) If Myamoto wanted to hint at some sort of relationship between Malon and Link, he would have put in some sort of dialogue regarding their connection... but I can't remember any, so I'm assuming that there's A ZERO. ZILCH. NADA.

I'm not saying Malon's bad-- I kind of like her, actually... just not with Link XD

About the "Malon wants a knight" thing....

Well, let's assume that Malon loves Link (or thinks she does). We know that Malon wants a knight in shining armor to come and sweep her off her feet someday. We also know that Link isn't a knight in shining armor, he's a hero in green clothes.

If Malon's in love with anything, it's her fantasies of a knight. Malon crushes hard on Link because she sees a fragment of her dream knight in him.

In short, Malink wouldn't happen in canon because Link isn't a knight, and Malon doesn't love the real Link.

I agree with that whole-heartedly.

I adore Malon's character (I love a whole lot of side-characters, what can I say?). She allows me to see the ordinary side of Hyrule that I can't see through the big-three's perspectives. Through her perdicament as a normal girl, I can understand and relate to how the normal people are affected between the battle of good and evil that takes place ONLY in their backyard...

As to who goes with Link? Well, I think that quote explains what people will choose.

Actually, I'd say that Zelda is the "sensible" choice for Link. I mean, she's always been there with Link, and Zelink is one of those classic, hero/princess couples.

Malon has only been in three games, has a minor role, and there are many people who ship Malink. I'd say that Malon would be the "idealistic" choice for Link. Basically:

Zelda = Pragmatism
Malon = Idealism

Just offerin' another POV. :whistle:

I think you hit the nail on the head.

It's a surface, and therefore shallow attraction.

If I was worried about Malon x Link hints..I'd go to Cremia and Romani in Termina.

Romani definately liked him: and calling him "little hero" and such...that's got to be flattering to a guy who's lost his heroic future by being sent back. Link doesn't seem like the kind of guy who needs accolades to power his ego though.

The camera also did a "close shot" when she taught him Epona's Song. That can imply "closeness" and that IS the moment when Link is reminded possibly of Malon through the song. But "memories of Zelda" carries a higher romantic implication than "bound by trust" does. Look at Kafei and Anju, and Kafei's "token of love" is called the Pendant of Memories.

Romani's other statement: " I know, why don't you just come live on the ranch! I'll lend you Romani's bed. Sister will be happy too. It's a great plan! So...then it's decided."

That could be taken to mean Link agreed...but she's the type to assume things..like when she announced she was going to town, to get a "No, you are not!" from her sister. She's also clueless about the Moon, as she demonstrates later.
Link leaves Termina at the end without a backward glance, so I think it's safe to say he didn't agree. Why would he return to Hyrule only to go to Malon if he liked Romani? They are not exact same, and neither are their circumstances.

Cremia's hug was a bit suspicious...but did Link like the hug or her? "warm and fuzzy" can mean happiness about someone you like/love...but it's ambiguous and a one-time thing. At the very most it could mean Link has a tiny bit of infatuation for Cremia, as she's very pretty. ( And recognized him as an adult, which again is an affirmation he may be wanting to hear ) But then again...I saw a definate parallel between Kafei and Anju to Link and Zelda...and we know how Kafei feels about Cremia. ( or doesn't would be a better term)

*phew* those are what I would consider the "trouble spots" for us Zelinker's....and I'd bet they were put there for the Malinkers. But if nothing else, it balances out that killer scene from the beginning with Zelda. I don't think I have ever seen Link lose it like that in the face of battle before ( he was totally lost in her memory and Tatl had to snap him out of it )...and he did go home to Hyrule at the end.

Zelink is just canon. I haven't played MM, but nothing can ever beat our many games' worth of Zelink hints etc. Malon, Ruto, Nabooru, Saria, Midna....none of them have the history of Zelink.

Yes Malon is a nice character and all and there is definitely a friendship between her and him, but I don't see much romantic stuff there. And even if it is there, its overshadowed by the obvious zelink.

:zelink:

Another (and fairly major) point against Malink shippers is the OoT game itself. Link's motivation for pretty much the entire is getting to Zelda, first in the Child saga when he is directed to do so by the Great Deku Tree, and then again when he is an Adult. Everything he did in that game, including helping Malon, was in order to get to Zelda.

Agreed. That unwavering devotion to her is why I love ZeLink so much in the first place, it just doesn't make sense that the boy who fought through time and such ( and returned to Zelda at the end when he was free to go ) would simply abandon her because some other girl wants him. If he liked Malon more..it would have showed up in OoT.
And that scene in MM:

" You are already leaving this land of Hyrule aren't you"
*turns around looking sad*
"Although it's only been a short time, I feel like I have known you forever.
I will never forget the days we spent together in Hyrule...and I believe in my heart that a day will come when I shall meet you again"
...that's really powerful. And ten times the emotional impact that any scene with Cremia or Romani had. I just can't see Link forgetting Zelda in the face of that.

LA Link may have fallen for Marin, but she had a real connection with him ( like ZeLink in OoT ) and she reminded him OF Zelda.

I haven't played Link's Awakening (at least, not a whole lot), but from what I can gather, Link met up with Marin when she saved him and he immediately thought that Marin was Zelda. And also, the majority of Link's Awakening turned out to be a dream Link was having, and since Link first assumed that Marin was Zelda, it's safe to conclude that Marin is simply a dream version of Zelda.

Agreed. :)
But the fans of Malon like to point out that because Link fell in love with Marin..he should therefore fall for Malon who was clearly inspired from her.
We use the same logic on ZeLink...that she is in so many games as a love interest that Link should love her...but unlike the Malon/Link ship...we actually have proof.

Another thing that should be addressed: Link is a ranch hand in TP, which seems to follow a hundred/s of years later. Talon and Romani both tried to get Link to come work on the ranch, so many take it as proof of post-MM Link's fate. ( he married Malon, had kids, and that's why TP Link is a ranch hand/cowboy in their mind)

That doesn't work IMO though, for several reasons:

1) The Hero's journey: The new hero starts out in a non-descript place...a nobody, and arises to become Hyrule's Savior...but he can't fit in with his old life at the end...I felt TP made this painfully clear as he rode away. Whether Ilia got left behind or not, I don't think he'd ever live there again. His growth does not lead him backwards.

2) The Hero's Spirit..if anyone is likely to BE the previous Link, it's him. He's a leftie and identifies himself as being of the same bloodline as TP Link. But he makes it painfully clear he "accepted the life of the hero", and is usually watching over Hyrule, and the castle specifically. He doesn't strike me as the type to settle down and hide on a farm..which is what Talon and Romani/Cremia wanted of Link. His partnership for Malon/themselves.

3) Malon's possible descendants ( Malo and Talo ) are in Ordon...but they look nothing like Link at all. If you compare their art to OoT's Malon you can see the resemblance, and their mother even looks like an older, overweight version of what Malon could become. But anyways...if OoT/MM Link was their n-th great-grandfather...TP Link should not look so different than them. He's the only Hylian in Ordon..suggesting he came from Castletown direction ( or his dead parents did ) and that he does not share close blood with anyone in Ordon. If OoT/MM Link married Zelda, his descendants would be in Castletown ( where they are more likely to intermarry with Hylians )..and over time would work their way down to commoner status from nobility and before that royalty.

4) Link's skillz: He's good with animals, which also leads some to believe he is descended from farmers. But a central theme to TP is Link having "the spirit of the beast" which allows him to communicate with animals and such...they recognize the beast within. That could easily explain why he's so good with them.

*phew again*
I've come across this stuff more at ZU when arguing, but it's interesting to discuss.

The only thing Malon and Marin have in common is the red hair. And seeing as how Link's original assumption on Marin was that she was Zelda (Marin apparentally looks almost indentital to Zelda, just with a different hair color), the conclusion that Miyamoto had Marin to be a dream version of Zelda isn't as far-fetched as some Malinkers will claim.

I'm fully in agreement with you.
Marin is only the first in a long line of alternate versions of Zelda...with Sheik, Tetra and even Midna coming from that line of thought. Using alternate personalities of her has become common practice.
If Malon was intended to be Link's main squeeze..she would have got the role Zelda did. not thrown in as a minor character.
( btw, I'm just using the arguments many Malinkers have used on me...because I'm sure we can come up with a better counter-argument! :lol: )
I would think OoT Zelda herself actually took attributes from Marin, like helping Link actively in his quest..and didn't Marin play a harp? ( like Sheik )

Actually, yeah, Marin did play a harp (at least, I think she did).

I hope I'm not too late to join in on this topic.

From the prospective of a Malon fan:

She was my favorite character the moment I saw her at the fountain. I loved her down to earth attitude and the fact that she seems to keep a level head despite everything that is going on around her. She seems to be so smart and just a joy to be around. That's why I would spend hours of my game play poking around Lon Lon Ranch, racing Epona, playing with the Cuccos. And most times, I would just stand and listen to her sing. (because I <3 Epona's Song so much <33). Then Navi would butt in with her heys and I would finally continue with the game. And I would always go see her right before the final battle. I couldn't help it. I suppose that's the Malink shipper in me. I always liked to imagine that Link would want to check in on her to make sure everything is okay before he goes off to see Sheik/Zelda in the Temple of Time. I mean even if their relationship wasn't romantic, they were still friends and Link would want to make sure everything was okay before venturing off to fight Ganondorf.

There isn't a lot of personality depth for the characters in OoT. We know a few basic things (i.e Link is courageous, Zelda is wise and loyal, Ruto is spoiled, Navi is annoying, but I love her anyway). But we don't know truly what these characters are like. It would be too much development for just one game, and I highly doubt Nintendo is going to devote a game to each character, just to give them personalities. That's where we the fans come in. We take the few traits we do see in them and expand on them, come to conclusions. For example: Zelda is loyal to her people, therefore it would make sense that she would do what she could to protect save them.

Just as Zelda fans speculate on Zelda's personality, Malon fans do the same.

Malon seems stable and grounded. Link's life is a whirlwind. He is constantly going here and there and retrieving this item and beating this boss. I think when he needs to unwind, he would go to Lon Lon Ranch and just hang out there. They had to forge a friendship, otherwise, I doubt she would've taught him her mother's song (or gave him her favorite horse).

I fully agree with your point that Link and Malon were friends, her teaching him Epona's Song testifies to that, and she must have trusted him enough to let Epona go off with him in MM. I can see him enjoying spending time with her, I certainly liked the ranch when playing the game.

But romantically? Despite her friendly personality, I never saw the spark between them that Link and Zelda displayed, IMO, even when Zelda was in disguise as Sheik. Nor the depth, communicated in the language that was used with Link and Zelda in both OoT and later MM. Because of this I feel Link x Malon works well in theory...but not in practice. Link never seemed to emote to her the way he did to Saria and later Zelda.
But as "we are Link" it does work in the essence that the player is Link's voice, I just never saw it in his unalterable actions/reactions.

While you may see Malon as the stability Link needs, I see her cloistered existance as a hinderance. At least in Zelda's case she is seeing the big picture, she understands the motivation behind Link ( being a hero, living for others ) because she lives by the same. Malon seems like a good person, just not on the same scale as Link and Zelda, at least to me. I don't think Malon could ever truly understand him. She also needs a partner to run the ranch with her, and Link couldn't provide the stability she'd need.

In terms of her personality: I've always seen the younger Malon as a dreamer, wishing like all young girls for a knight-in-shining armor, a hero, to come and see the beauty in her. The older Malon seems a bit more down to reality..but years of work, and watching Hyrule and Ingo's slide towards corruption has brought her down to earth. I'm not sure she would have developed that way in the peaceful Hyrule in Link's renewed childhood. The bottom line, as much as I liked Malon, ( and Ruto etc ) I don't think Link is THE one for her. I think someone would eventually come along who would see her for as unique and beautiful as she is, whereas she'd be second fiddle to Zelda when dealing with Link.

And Zelda's existance is not cloistered? She is the Princess of Hyrule. She cannot abandon her duty to her people on a whim simply because Link wants to take off. Wouldn't that make her irresponsible? Doesn't her duty as a princess come before Link?
As bored as Link (might) would be living on the ranch, don't you think he would be equally bored having to live in the castle? Either way, he would have to make a commitment and settle down for the simple fact that both girls have responsibilities that they won't just easily abandon.

And because (it is assumed, but certainly not by me) Malon doesn't live this "self sacrificing" life that Zelda does, wouldn't make her any less likely to understand Link. If she truly cared about him, she would be wiling and able to understand that he had this need to protect Hyrule, because it is his destiny. I don't think Malon would be so selfish as to expect Link to remain exclusively devoted to life on a ranch when he has spent most of his life adventuring. And the same would go for Zelda. If either of them were in a relationship with Link, they would wait patiently for his return. Of course Zelda *might* be able to play a bigger role in Link's adventure because of the Triforce of Wisdom. But that doesn't necessarily throw Malon out of the running all together.

Just because her role is smaller doesn't mean she's any less important to Link as Zelda is.

I can understand Link's reactions to a lot of the situations with Zelda. Everything he had done was for her. All of the fighting and all of the adventuring was to protect her and restore peace to Hyrule. I understand that. But after saving Lon Lon Ranch from Ingo, Malon and the Ranch and Epona are really the only nostalgic things of old Hyrule before Ganondorf Link has. Zelda's gone and he doesn't know where she is. The Kokiri Forest has been overran with monsters. Zora's River is completely frozen over. Hyrule Castle Town is gone. There was nothing left but Lon Lon Ranch. I think that was something Link needed. Having the life that he did, without some kind of stability, I think he may have went crazy.

But that's just me.

Agreed: Zelda can't abandon her responsibilities. But I see Zelda's responsibilities as closer to Link's calling..he wouldn't have to leave the heart of his role behind if he chose to join her in that lifestyle. He would be ensuring the peace and safety of Hyrule at her side, just as easily as if he was unattached.

I don't think Malon is such a bad person that she couldn't let Link go if she truly loved him, I just saw nothing in game to indicate she did. He came back 7 years later, and she didn't know who he was: that's not what comes to mind when I think of Link's soulmate. Zelda, on the other hand was the first person to meet him, seconds after he arrived. She had been waiting for him, and even said so. She never gave up hope in him. Malon needed Epona's recognition to jar her memory, and that doesn't testify to them really knowing each other that well. Even if Link had that stability in Lon Lon as an adult...it's dishonest. He can't bury his head in the sand and forget what was going on, the game makes it clear through Ruto and Impa how worried Link really was about Zelda. ( and everyone else obviously ) I'd see him being driven to find them, rather than idling time away while they could be in danger. While the Ranch, and Malon could be an escape, I think Link loves Hyrule ( and Zelda ) enough to forgo that in order to be who he must. I guess it's my belief again that Link and Malon have completely different goals in life, and his isn't compatible with hers.

Not saying that Link would be wasting time at the ranch, while he knew that people he obviously cared for was in danger. That wouldn't make sense. What I meant was that while he was out traveling, riding from place to place he could've seen Lon Lon Ranch standing tall and secure and he would be secure in knowing that everything would be okay so long as he kept going.

I don't deny that Link has feelings for Zelda. I know if someone was constantly saving me (or if I am the one doing the saving) I would probably have strong feelings for him too. Not only that, they are bound together by destiny and fate.

Anyway, the point is moot and we could be here all day debating. There are valid reasons for Link to choose either girl. It's a matter of which appeal to you more.

Personally I'd see it to be more logical for Link to be with Zelda--since she's the lead female role. A lot more happens between them as far as the gamer can see. With Malon, other than two or three scenes, there's not much--which leaves a lot of vague speculation.

There's really nothing but vague speculation all around. Which is what we fans do. We speculate. And until we are given a concrete answer from the creators, it will all be a matter of perspective. We'll see what we want to see. And even *if* we ever do get an answer to what is canon and what's not, fandom will always make up for what is lacking in the canon. Which is what makes fandom so great <3.