Tau Titan... Again, What if....

Blah blah blah everyone keeps saying that Tau dont need Titans that their Manta ships are the best and all that.... yea. Well theres a problem with that.

We all know the Tau can mount some AWESOME firepower in some amazing long range weopons. A manta and their starships carry the largest of these. But that is not so practical when the enemy is engaging the Tau in furius dog fights and air dominance is unsure. What then? The Tau need a grounded gun mount. Im talking broad side on a massive scale. Dont think about an Imperial Titan stomping across the battlefield. Instead picture a huge four legged gun platform with seeker missil racks on its shoulders and giant railguns for arms. Fireing giant slugs across the field at ranges no imperial weopon can match. Railguns the size that fire the troop boarding craft. If youve read the book Firewarrior you should know what I mean. A walker can stay out of the way of airial combat and would not have the danger of being knocked out of the air. With multiple legs it can brace to fire salvos of missils an Imperial navy would be impressed by.

Still the manta you say. Well think about this.

1) the manta has to be airborn so cover unless at high altitude is negated. But a walker can hide behind large hills and in valleys and around mountain juts to fire its weopons and stay away from the greater part of any return fire.

2) the manta can be destabalized and shot out of the air where a ground machine would survive to much damage for lack of distance to fall. Thereby allowing greater chances of crew survival.

3) Targeting speed. On a single hip a Walker could change targets and direct shots far faster than a Manta. The ship has to rotate or maintain movement to change targets or its weopon mounts have to move wich isnt that good. But an armed walker could change and rotate its weopons much, much faster.

4) Shock factor. The sight of emense guns blasting away from the distance and the shape of a huge humanoid form is more impressive than a ship floating around far above. However dangerous the threat on the ground is the more immediate in most cases.

Now the walker can have some disadvantages in mobility. Then again with the Taus amazing jump jet tech and anti grav tech a way to make the walker airborn for deployment and retreat is possible.

Lastly the Tau do not have ANYTHING that can front against an Imperial line of Titans. Even with aircraft in many cases the battle in the air will be all to intense for ground cover. Leaving Tau forces to dog Imperials. Even tho that may work it is not the best. A machine that can pulverise an Imperial Warlord Titan without threat of anti air retaliation is missing from the Tau arsenal. Aircrafts fight in the air and troops on the ground. THere are places for everything and they are there for a reason. The Tau for all their versatility need an anchor on the battlefield that can stabalize a line and prevent routes. Something to wall against the Imperials. Because at times Retreat is NOT an option.

I dunno why Tau titans are so disaproved given the information I just laid down. Whatever the design any walker form that boasts long range firepower in a firm package is absent from the Tau armory and could be used. Besides in the largest of board games when warhound titans and super heavy tanks are fielded what are the Tau to do. Ive seen lots of players with the Imperial greats but I have never seen the Manta fielded. Something more useable than a huge ship is far more practical.

Well, I disagree. I think the Titan is a rather impractical design when comparing it to modern warfare machinery. The only reasons I can think of why a titan would be beneficial is when considering stability during firing. But the Hammerhead is an existing design and it has no problem firing a railgun while skimmering a few feet above the ground.

Take a look at the modern day Apache for example. I think it's flexibility and it's ability for (close to the) ground based combat far exceeds any walker on the battlefield. Now imagine what a Tau equivalent of the Apache would be. Improved transition between ground and aerial combat. Greater flexibility and speed due to anti-grav tech. If we could take a tau ship/vehicle and translate that in a similar role and size like a imperial warhound titan, wouldn't it be more logical to make it a skimmer?

I think a Tau skimmer/flyer can definitly make use of cover too. Ever seen an Apache pop up from behind the trees and take out a tank (not irl ofcourse..bless discovery channel )? And targeting speed doesn't have to be more efficient on a titan design. A skimmer has superior rotation speed when comparing it to a bi- or quad-pedal vehicle. Making use of a simple turret for targeting would make a skimmer/flyer even more efficient. I also disagree on the shock factor. I think the manta is just as impressive considering its scale. Take the scenes in Independence Day for example, don't think it's the shape that matters, but the size....

You may be right the Tau currently lack a ground based vehicle to take out superheavy tanks/titans. But I'm sure these niches will be filled in the future with some superheavy skimmers off their own. I think the Eldar Scorpion would be more what the Tau would use to fill that niche. Perhaps even on a greater scale.

Final note: if you want to make a tau titan. Go ahead and make one! Who cares what fluff says or everybody else. It's still your interpretation and after all....it's only a game. Might make one myself even, coz when it all comes together...a tau titan would just look cool!

The Apache is not an anti grav. It is a helecopter and can be taken out by blasting the rotor blades off. It is not durable and HAS to make use of cover. And yes I know of modern war machines, very well infact. Also the Apache is not big and Im talking sky scraper sized. Not easy to hide then. And I disagree that a skimmer is effective. To mount the size of weopons it would be impractical for urban combat and on a large battlefield it would be a large target. As for turning it would have to turn like an aircraft for the size not a small skimmer like the hammerhead. Afterall were talking city sized not a tank. There are differences. Ever see a motor boat and a battleship turn. Big difference. Same as with say chinoock and a little bird. They maneuvre MUCH differently and comparing a helecopter to an anti grav is inapropriate. A walker is much more practical on the larger scale than a skimmer. And I am not refering to house rules I am talking fluff and science here. lol.

Ofcourse the Apache isn't anti grav, but I merely stated the Apache as a modern day example of a skimmer/anti-grav vehicle. The Apache is an extremely efficient tank killer because of its 'skimmering' ability. Extrapolation to the 40k Universe would make an upscaled skimmer/anti grav vehicle an efficient titan killer.

Whether cover would be aplicable to such an upscaled skimmer is debatable, but this was never what I stated. Whether cover would be aplicable to such a walker is debatable as well. I merely stated an upscaled skimmer is equally efficient as an walker when using cover. Using cover was one of your arguments for a walker. A skimmer that floats a few feet above the ground is however equally capable of using cover as a walker is and negates this argument.

And why would this be impractical? In what way is a walker superior to a skimmer when wielding the same weapons in an urban setting? I'd say the skimmer would even be more superior because of its ability to exploit the three dimensions of the battlefield. The walker will be limited to the ground where the skimmer can make full use of the height of the buildings as cover.

I have to disagree on the last part again. The same physics apply to both the walker as the skimmer. It's the mass of such a great object that requires a great momentum to rotate the intended object. So turning for a walker would require the same amount of energy as with a skimmer. Friction will also be a big issue when talking about a walker that size. The sheer weight of the object will require enormous power on the axis and gears involved to make any motion possible (I've done a year mechanical engineering so I kinda know about this stuff....not too much though coz kinda sucked at it too... ). I think you're making the same assumption you're using as an argument. A mouse moves entirely different then an elephant. When you take sauropods for example, the biggest walkers that ever walked this earth, they too were extremely slow moving and inflexible creatures.

Once again...if you really want to make one....just go ahead. To me, it does seem impractical from a Tau perspective as from a scientific. And I just like an argument for the sake of an argument....

lol the strength of the Apache as a tank killer IS the cover. Otherwise it would be blown up and torn to threads. Only through the use of cover is it strong.

As for physics.... where are you going??? Im not refering to energy but to speed. Its simple the rotation of a skimmer is much wider when dealing with that size. It wouldent be turning on a small point as say a waist joint on a walker. Im also not refering to something the shape of an elephant. Im talking about something with a torso, shoulders and then just four legs instead of two. Instead of having to use engines set apart like say the starboard and port engines on a hammerhead it just has to swivel on a single point.

Also a skimmer has to keep moving or it will be shot down. So turning on point is impractical as it further negates a skimmers defence. As for killing titans a single shot from a titan can bring even a manta down. Where as a walker could absorb some of the blow into the ground and shrug off the damage. Using legs it could sport much heavier armor and would have no external machinery of much critical value to be targeted. A titan is made for blasting apart armor and withstanding blows. Sure a manta could bring one down but one lucky shot sends the manta to the ground where the Tau craft has to repeatedly pound a Titan and maintain its movement. Sure it can be done but with a good pilot the Tau ship is doomed. It doesnt have the maneuverability of a fighter and cannot use urban cover unless given enough gap in the size of the buildings and it may not always have that leasure.

Sure the Tau can make use of the Manta to great effect but some things require more endurance and staying power. A manta has to keep moving and its ability to stop an advance from a group of Titans is negligable at best. It could bring down a few before they got to where they were headed but it would not be able to stop them. Where an enmplanted walker spoarting the most massive of weoponry most notably say a railgun could put up a blanket of solid fire that would halt a Titan advance where salvos of guided missles could be shrugged off from a Manta.

It is the style of combat not the machinery that matters. The Tau have nothing with which to fight a drawn campaign of hard face to face fighting with and they cant run forever. Sure the idea of traps and surprise, ambushes and speed are all good but the room is not always available. The tau have speed alright and thats good. But look at their ground troops. They have devilfish and crisis suits and all that but they also have a broadside. Something that sports more long range weoponry than almost anything else in the Tau army can AND it has allot of it. Twin linked railguns remember. The point of that is to stop an enemy with weight of fire. A titan and a Manta have the roles similar to a crisis team and a broadside team. They both work well and they both have their place. A crisis team cant stop a large aproach of several terminator squads and a dreadnaught but a team of broadsides could. Ive seen it done before.

Everything has its place on the field. As the crisis suite is used for its speed and tactical flexibility the broadside is used to plant a firm firebase to HALT the enemy not harass them. There is a difference and both are just as important. Saying that the Taus skimmers and aircraft can negate the roll of large grounded weopon bases is foolish.

That is from a strategic point of view not a fluff point of view. For the Tau fluff a larger broadside may be out of the question but as you can see with the smaller units there are places for each. And on the large scale the same can be said. Tactics is a fine art and assuming something has no place is not good. Not good at all. Such machines are in the universe for a reason.

In part i agree with Younge Blood. i can see both sides of your arguements. However, Younge blood, have you seen Greydeath's Titan? The great big brown crab-thing? it sounds very much like what you are explaining. And you are right, if the body of the titan is mounted on a single axis above the base of the legs, it could swivel on point without moving. Also, if the legs face in multi directional ways, only the body has to move to change direction. Wherever the body turns, that becomes it's new front. where, the hammerhead or apache simile, however, when it turns, it exposes the flanks or rear of the vehicle and doesn't have a tight turning circle when it needs to move at the great speeds it needs to to stop being shot down.
However, Riley is correct in syaing that air-based vehicles do have large advantages over ground-based vehicles. Manouvrability is one, and the ability to get from one point to another very quickly. Quick enough to out-run most incoming fire. It has to be otherwise one shot would bring it down. Speed and cover are the only real defence aircraft has against incoming fire.

I think that the Tau, being so technologically advanced would fill the niche in both aspects of warfare. Manta aircraft are for air-air air-ground attacks, bombing bases n support lines. While the Spider-Titan could be placed at the back of the Tau armies, still provide incredible n sufficeint fire-support against ground and air troops and hold back advancing armies if the Tau withdraw.

Well, what I'm trying to say is that turning for the titan like it is being sketched doesn't hold the advantage as you tend to think. Let's consider the same mass distribution in the titan as in biological bi and quad peds. We'll have 2/3 off the body mass above the legs and 1/3 in the legs itself. That would mean that rotating for the titan would mean rotating 2/3 of its mass and for a skimmer rotating around its own axis (which I asume it must be able to do as modern day helicopters and vtols are able to do so) would mean rotating its entire body mass. This 1/3 weight advantage the titan would have over the skimmer would translate into a rougly 20% increase in rotation speed. That's when you assume the titan has to rotate its entire upperbody to target and the skimmer the whole body itself. However, the titan wouldn't rotate it's entire upperbody to target. It would probably only turn its arm to target. Same for the skimmer, it would probably have a weapon turret mounted because that is way more efficient. Hence targeting speed from the weapons would be the same for both types of vehicles. Taking into account that the skimmer is more efficient in choosing position I think the skimemr has the advantage. This is my perspective on argument 3 from the first post.

Younge Blood> Now I will try to summarize your story, pls correct me if you feel I have left anything out. Basicly you're saying the Tau don't have a vehicle that covers the function of a "mobile fortress" and that a titan design would fit this role better than a skimmer would. Well I totally agree on that. Why I don't think tau would make use of titans?

1. It wouldn't fit their style of combat.
2. The concept of mobile fortress is outdated.

Point one has been discussed enough so I won't get into that. I think the concept of mobile fortress is outdated because modern day weapons are able to penetrate any form of armour available to us today. A present day example like NORAD isn't safe from the weapons we have today. That's why the defense guys are thinking about concepts like rocket shields and defense satelites. Another example. Let's take modern battleships as analogy to mobile fortresses. Even modern battleships rely on evasion and intercepting incoming fire as their primary defense.

Now what I am also having problems with is the method of locomotion. Let's say for arguments sake a mobile fortress would be needed on the 40k battlefield. Why a walker?? A bi or quad ped design is extremely inefficient from a mechanical point of view (obviously not from a evolutionary point of view but that has other reasons). Look at the enormous amount of money Toyota poured into developing and fabricating a lousy robot that can only walk around! When you want to transport such an enormous mass like a titan, keep the stability and the option of a lot of armour, a threaded of wheeled vehicle is not only more efficient but also more logical.

So why are there Titans at all? I think GW just thought it was cool. And they're right, they ARE cool. Which for me is still the only convincing argument for a Tau titan: it would be cool!

Hi-ho, Courtesy the Grot here. I'm continually surprised how often I hear other Tau players complain about the lack of Titans in the Tau army. The Tau military is tremendously well equipped to handle and destroy Imperial Titans. It's unfortunate, but I have noticed that many Tau players making such demands of the arsenal don't play Epic 40,000 in any capacity, let alone with their favourite Tau army. Though the rules are still experimental, the Tau army enjoys considerable success against Imperial Titans in any environment (yes, even urban). And this isn't simply because of the Manta.

There are many units in the Tau military to which most 40K players are unaware. Their role in the more grander scale of conflict like Epic 40,000 (the game in which Titans are meant to be used) plugs a lot of the holes some players point out as necessitating a massive Tau walker. Walkers are all well and nice, but first and foremost, a Tau army relies on speed and maneuver to win the day. Titans are SLOW. They're hard to deploy. Tau use Mantas and Orcas to deploy most, if not all of their ground forces. This would limit the size of any walker to something that could be safely stowed or transported beneath a Manta; probably Warhound displacement at the very largest.

Here's some of the units of which you may or may not be aware:

SWORDFISH: An upgunned version of the Hammerhead, this twin-Railgun mounted tank has similar characteristics to the mainstain gunship. With increased firepower (both offensive and defensive), the Swordfish is to the Hammerhead what a Vanquisher is to a Leman Russ.
WEAPONS: Pair of Railguns, twin linked missile pods, burst cannon and seeker missles.

LIONFISH: An artillery-tank version of the Devilfish transport, this vehicle is designed to break up mass infantry attacks used by Tyranids, Imperial Guard and Orks.
WEAPONS: Submunition Missile, Seeker Missiles, Gun Drones

SCORPIONFISH: The first of the Tau super heavy skimmers. Built upon a modified Orca dropship chassis, this is a massive support weapon skimmer. It has no one main weapon, but instead batteries of smaller systems to lend long range and close range support to the Tau advance. It is comparable in size to a Baneblade though with less armour.
WEAPONS: x2 Twin Linked Missile Pods, x2 Smart Missile Systems, Seeker Missiles, Interceptor (Anti Aircraft) Missiles, Tracer (Anti-Titan) Missiles

DRAGONFISH: A command vehicle, based upon an Orca chassis like the Scorpionfish. This is designed to house the overall command of the Tau military in a campaign engagement, coordinated the various Hunter Cadres.
WEAPONS: Ion Cannon, x2 twin linked Burst Cannons, Seeker Missiles

WHITESHARK STRIKE CRAFT: A version of the Tigershark Heavy Bomber, designed to fill the needed anti-armour niche required but missing from Tau aircraft at the time.
WEAPONS: 2x Railguns, Twin Linked Ion Cannons, Twin Linked Burst Cannons, Seeker Missiles, Tracer Missiles

MORAY ASSAULT SHIP: A smaller version of the Manta Missile Destroyer, lacking any transport capacity, but keeping its ferocious armament.
WEAPONS: Railcannon (Anti-Titan) OR x2 Heavy Ion Phalanx (massive Ion guns), twin linked burst cannons, twin linked missile pods, Seeker Missiles, Tracer Missiles

MANTA MISSILE DESTROYER: The big cheese himself, the Manta is a force to be reconned with.
WEAPONS: x2 Railcannons, x2 Heavy Ion Phalanx, 4x Twin Linked Burst Cannons, Seeker Missiles, Tracer Missiles.

Contrary to what some players believe, the Scorpionfish, Moray and Mantas do not make straffing runs. They engage enemy ground forces the same way an Eldar super heavy grav-tank would. They hover low to the ground and remain close at hand. Lacking air support isn't too much of a detriment to these massive constructs as the latter two are well shielded and armoured. Keeping Skyray AA gunships close at hand does much to dissuade marauding aircraft.

Thats epic and epic crafts dont really help for regular 40k now do they?

As for detriments of mobile fortresses the armor is suplimented with defencive missils, screens and any other things you can come up with missils and all that as the Tau would naturally do. Like the drones that destroy incoming torpeedos for Tau space ships. Same difference. As for swiveling guns I have not seen that on the heavier tau ships. Besides the nececity for drawn combat when using hit and run straffing attacks like an aircraft would need increase the risk of a critical hit and loses. Finishing an engagement quickly can be key in combat sometimes.

Though Tau aircraft do fill many of those roles in epic such things are unavailable in regular 40k and regular 40k is what I have based this on. And yes I have seen Greydeaths walker it is quite nice. I was around when he first posted it. It fits the role perfectly.

Epic crafts most certainly *do* help WH40K. If you want a glimpse into the possible future units for your Tau army, you need look no further than the present Epic list. Though super-heavy vehicles are beyond the scope of WH40K games (including Titans), some of the Hammerhead and Devilfish based weapons are more likely to make an appearance, if only as Forgeworld kits.

Tau superheavy skimmers are far from the fragile aircraft you're supposing. Like Imperial Baneblades, Shadowswords, Stormswords, and Stormblades, they're designed to take heavy punishment without having to disengage. Some of the larger Tau fighting craft are shielded in addition to having massive structural capacity. Their defensive weapons mounts, like those on Hammerhead Gunships and also Tigershark and Barracudas, are mounted on highly mobile turrets, giving them at least a 270' field of fire.

You're also assuming that vehicles such as the Scorpionfish and Moray are flyers. Though they are capable of flight, they operate as skimmers; land based vehicles in all respects. This gives them many more options in terms of maneuverability and terrain not available to walkers of any type. Particularly in urban environments, these vehicles can negotiate terrain a mechanical bipedal or quadrapedal vehicle wouldn't dare attempt.

You'll also notice a trend in Tau military equipment. They prefer to avoid direct fire confrontation if at all possible. Tau specialize in outranging, outmaneuvering and outpacing their opponents. Something like a walker wouldn't be able to wage that kind of conflict. The slow speed of such a vehicle would be prohibitive to the Tau way of War, restricting it solely to ambush roles or static defense. There are many other Tau vehicles which excel at this with hard hitting firepower (Hammerheads, Broadsides and Swordfish) yet which can still maneuver (or be maneuvered) with ease.

Food for thought on the speed of turrets: In WWII (a periode of conflict the warfare of WH40K is quite often based), it was faster to move the hole tank around than it was to swivel the turret.

This post has been edited by CourtesyGrot on Mar 2 2005, 04:29 AM

I think that's a weird statement to make. Many 40k units originate from epic. Where do you think titans came from in the first place? Lots of units have been translated from epic to 40k and vice versa.

Ah, but that's on a different scale. When we look at a modern day battleship. It will probably turn its turret to aim then to make a 180 manoevre in the water.

I check the tau epic development forum on the GW site on a regular basis and I think it is coming along very nicely. That's one of the reasons why I don't think a tau titan would be necessary. I would like to see some 'new' vehicles though in the sense that all new vehicles proposed in the development forum is a variant of existing designs (just like the Lemann Russ has tons of variants). Except for the Moray there are no 'real' new designs and the Moray itself is being proxied by an emisary class starship from BG I believe. I understand its kinda difficult but I just would like to see something really new.

I'm hoping we'll see them expand towards small, Devilfish chassis missile-artillery tanks. Perhaps similar to the Skyray design, but specializing towards different missile load outs. Of course, this isn't likely to happen. The Tau seem quite adverse to building specialist style vehicles and seem to prefer generalists. More options for Hammerheads and Devilfish may be the answer, but I wouldn't be adverse to seeing a new heavier class of Tau vehicle. The Swordfish is a step in the right direction, but its description describes it as a converted Hammerhead (originally).

I do like that Epic has started expanding the Tau arsenal. Railcannons, Ion Phalanx, Tracer and Submunition Missiles are all welcome additions and I'm curious to see if any of the battlesuit weaponry will be upgunned as well. A lot of players love their plasma guns, for example. A multi-shot version of the gun would be very well received, I have no doubt (starcannon, anyone?)

Oh, and you're very right, Riley. Turrets on boats do tend to spin faster than the mass of the vessel itself. The comparison of Titans to naval capital ships is a very apt one.

There are a couple of assumuptions that I think need clearing up.

First of all. Helicopters. Most modern attack helicopters do not turn as slow as some of you seem to think. Blackhawks turn slow but they also move slow speed wise. why because of how heavy they are. The apche is a fast helicopter by all accounts. Why? because it has less wieght to move and except for the nose mounted machine gun has all its weapons mounted on wings which help it turn quicker. Also the apche is smaller compared to the blackhawk.

Second. Turret turning speed. In world war 2 most tanks used hand winches to turn the turret. Now we use motorized turrets which are 2 to 3 times faster in most cases (swinging a 15' long barrel takes a lot of force, even from a motor that takes time).

Thridly. Why would a Tau Titan be slow? Anti-grav could be employed to lift some of the wieght of the the titan, advanced recoil apsorption equipment could also help because the legs would not need to hold the thing steady as much as imperail titans do.

PS: Please ignore any spelling mistakes (I'm used to having spell checkers).

I agree. A tau tian would be able to utilise some jet-pack technology to assist the walker in lifting it's legs when it need to move. This would enable it to raise and move it's legs a lot faster than any Imperial titan. It would have much more agility than an imperial one too.

Well I have thought about a tau titan utilizing jetpack technology. You'll be venturing close tot the Eldar Revenant Titan. I think the role this specific titan fulfills on the battlefield could fit the Tau style of combat. But I have some issues with ergonomy and mechanics. The Tau seem really efficient in their designs and making a vehicle with anti gravity/jetpack AND legs seem redundant. Why keep the legs in the first place? Same goes for that mobile fortress idea btw: if a fortress should rely so heavily on shielding and defensive missiles, why bother with such heavy armour you'll be needing a ground based locomotion system in the first place? Once again it looks redundant.

The Tau Epic development board seem to be doing really well diversifying the current Tau arsenal. The lack of a titan hasn't been a problem for now. I think the argument: they need titans, cause everybody has them is a bit short-sighted. Take a look at the Squats. They never had titans. They did have huge land-based mobile fortresses though, which were threaded btw. This could be a loophole for a 'Tau' titan though. Allies with titans.

But I have to say, considering the huge popularity I'll probably make a Tau titan myself in the future, despite my ideas. Throw it up on ebay and see if it can finance some of my other projects...

So keep the pro-arguments flowing!