Draconic Limit

Let's hear it!

13 Feb 09, 00:20
Rosabella: Basically, it's what Sky said- Plots. I mean... I started out with two draconics; The dreaming egg and Anthem. Anthem is going to have two kids, one as a "fling" and one as the love of his life. Aysun is going to have one kid. Oh, look, there's my limit- Even though Aysun's two kids might want to have kids.
13 Feb 09, 00:21
Rosabella: I was thinking that, since he wanted it to be like family- There could be a ridiculously high loyalty cap with /each and every draconic/ before you can get another. 'Cause the harachiu were supposed to be kids, and their loyalty cap for each and every one is 30.
Rosabella: Since draconics are quite a bit more intensive...Maybe a loyalty of 50, so you know the people who go over the cap really had a reason to.

Above is the nutshell version of my argument- Below is the entire debate. Read from bottom to top.

13 Feb 09, 00:05
Rosabella: Has Spirit ever given a reason? Who knows, with the revamp, he might.
13 Feb 09, 00:04
Dylan: Kyle: Bottom line is that users have tried before to get the limit changed, it failed, Spirit said no, he probably won't change it any time soon
13 Feb 09, 00:03
Rosabella: Not neccessarily. Go read personal descriptions; There isn't any guidelines set like in kennels or the park.
13 Feb 09, 00:03
Jarad: Alright Rosa ^^ Then have fun sleeping =)
13 Feb 09, 00:03
Dylan: Kyle: Think of the cave as an apartment, you're just one room in a giant building
13 Feb 09, 00:02
Rosabella: I'm about to go to bed myself, Jarad...I just got on to stalk something really fast...
13 Feb 09, 00:02
Jarad: *Pops in* Rosa should post before she sleeps.. XD Sorry Dylan, I will post tomarrow I promise ^^ I need to sleep now though x.o night everyone
13 Feb 09, 00:02
Rosabella: I assume the hole is as big as you want the hole to be.
13 Feb 09, 00:01
Dylan: Tahts exactly the point Rosa you don't know how large that hole is at all.
13 Feb 09, 00:01
Rosabella: Here's the entire Rosabella plot with her Draconics. Aysun is like a replacement for her mother- Aysun has a child, it becomes more or less both Aysun and Rosabella's kid. Anthem is like her dad replacement, his first kid is her sibling replacement, the second her other sibling.
13 Feb 09, 00:00
Pre: Ah well, as fun as this is..I've gotta sleep xP.... Rosa, if you really think this should happen, post it in the suggestions thread...personally I disagree, but I'm also not active with draconics...soo *shrugs*. Night all...
12 Feb 09, 23:59
Rosabella: They are like family to me, which is why I want to be able to have more...If I train my five to a certain point, I'll just give up, because there's just no point to something that won't go anywhere.
12 Feb 09, 23:58
Rosabella: Think about it, though. It doesn't say how large your cave is. It just says you found it in a big wall. Who's to say it couldn't hold more than 5?
12 Feb 09, 23:58
Pre: Yeah..like I said...there were attempts to keep that in check...but apparently any time that Spirit tries to keep things reasonable....well...it upsets people xP
12 Feb 09, 23:58
Dylan: Kyle: Well Spirit's reasoning behind draconics is that hey are Family, not pets. You wouldn't exactly pimp out family members till you had a million of them, hence the limit
12 Feb 09, 23:58
Pre: Also..I feel like since there is already a loyalty limit set on the whole bonding (with non-dream draconics) that it'd be odd to have another loyalty thing..though I'm sure that could work out if Spirit wanted *shrugs*
12 Feb 09, 23:57
Rosabella: Then, in an in character sense, the MML system doesn't make sense. The warehouse has to run out of room- Go look at some of the kennels of the people who've been here awhile.
12 Feb 09, 23:57
Pre: Well, for people who would like more than 1 egg from their clutches though, that really wouldnt' be terribly fair...plus I think that from an in character perspective the current system makes sense...
12 Feb 09, 23:56
Rosabella: What if you were already planning on doing that with clutches anyway?
12 Feb 09, 23:55
Pre: Well, like I said..you'd get 1 kid at a time then...and have to what, wait a week or two of roleplaying in order to get the second egg from a clutch?
12 Feb 09, 23:55
Rosabella: Pre- Tell me what's wrong with a high loyalty limit, to add one draconic to the family if all are at that loyalty. It could be completely optional, but also for people who want the chance to let the second gens have kids.
12 Feb 09, 23:53
Pre: I'm just saying though, there is plenty of precedent for limiting the amount of creatures in a specific place..and the only real exception made was for things that cost money.....and then it was kind of tossed out because people got very annoyed by it *shrugs*
12 Feb 09, 23:53
Dylan: Anyone have a Lashak first gen that would be willing to mate with my Galathan Orrell?
12 Feb 09, 23:53
Rosabella: Aysun would probably only have her kid as it is. It's mostly Anthem and his kids, because /they're/ not getting soul bonded and only have eachother when Rosabella and Aysun go to the Barracks.
12 Feb 09, 23:53
Pre: No, but they are free, like LEs....actually, really, LEs cost $1...so yeah xP
12 Feb 09, 23:52
Pre: But anyways...like I said, that' sonly if you can't possibly find any other way to cut back...
12 Feb 09, 23:52
Rosabella: So...Draconics that you breed, and are limited to only you...Are the same as LEs?
12 Feb 09, 23:52
Pre: Well, you can at the very least stick first gen ones in journals, etc...but as far as offspring go you'd probably have to check with Ashe or something...
12 Feb 09, 23:51
Dylan: Kyle: True Pre XD
12 Feb 09, 23:51
Rosabella: And then I just feel guilty...Taking the images and sticking them in my journal, and only roleplaying them in misc? That's not the family love I had thought of. (Is that even allowed?)
12 Feb 09, 23:51
Pre: I did Ky xP..but I doubt I was your target audience xD
12 Feb 09, 23:50
Dylan: Its okay Sky :3 -continues search for a Lashak-
12 Feb 09, 23:50
Pre: Well, yeah, he wasn't going to limit things you paid for....but houses are limited, and he did try to limit ridiculous numbers of LEs in kennels...
12 Feb 09, 23:50
Skylark: Thanks for the offer, but I've stuck with him for so long I don't think I could give the big guy up. <3
12 Feb 09, 23:50
Pre: Also, for people who absolutely -can't- limit themselves...I'm pretty sure you could keep them off-site...and keep them in misc. plots, etc. *shrugs*
12 Feb 09, 23:49
Dylan: Kyle: -Cough- Did aanyone notice my comment below? XD
12 Feb 09, 23:49
Rosabella: No- He only tried to limit kennels with pets that weren't custom or offspring.
12 Feb 09, 23:49
Dylan: Well if you're looking for a good home for the LAshak (formerly the red draconic) then maybe I could be of help :3
12 Feb 09, 23:49
Pre: And Spirit tried to limit kennels at one point too..but everyone had fits about it...so he undid it... and chances are people will gradually start getting rid of older draconics for newer ones, Kitsu...just like people did with orbaru once they stopped being breedable...
12 Feb 09, 23:48
Skylark: Ah, I think so Dylan. xD I haven't memorized the names yet. XP
12 Feb 09, 23:47
Pre: I dont' know...honestly I feel like there are creative ways to address the limit, in character, and as "limiting" as it maybe...it depends how you react to that....
12 Feb 09, 23:47
Dylan: GIant fire breathing!? Would this be a Lashak Sky?
12 Feb 09, 23:47
Kitsu: But most of the active members are complaining about full canyons already, Pre.
12 Feb 09, 23:47
Rosabella: But what if the people you trust run out of room, too? As I said...The "add one draconic" could be optional, but for people who really want it...(Think about it. Kennels get cramped too. Everyone's stuck in one big warehouse.)
12 Feb 09, 23:46
Skylark: What makes me sad is that I have three gen1 draconics I don't want to get rid of. Two of them have mates. That leaves my last one sort of left out... Sure, I could make Skylark shove him into Ret's care, but my second character doesn't go as well with a giant fire-breather...
12 Feb 09, 23:46
Dylan: Kyle: What you just said is false, in the breeding between my and Kitzu's draconics we gave our extra to Kheisha, as we had planned before the babies came, no objections were raised
12 Feb 09, 23:46
Pre: Oh wait...nevermind xP...sometimes I forget they can't breed within your thing...xD
12 Feb 09, 23:46
Pre: Except that extra babies get adopted in the rookery, Kitsu, and then those have babies in different canyons...and Rosa, if the 2 are different genders maybe make Aysun the parent ofone of Anthem's or something?
12 Feb 09, 23:45
Kitsu: If people can only have five Draco pcs each, the whole thing probably isn't gonna get past gen. 4. x3;
12 Feb 09, 23:45
Pre: I belieive you could specifically say so-and-so gets the 3rd baby...or something, just like with any other breeding..though, I could be mistaken...
12 Feb 09, 23:44
Rosabella: You don't have a choice who the offspring goes to, Dylan- The way I understand it, all unclaimed go to the Rookery. So who's to say it goes to someone who just roleplayed the once in the Rookery and never does again?
12 Feb 09, 23:44
Pre: Yeah, being the way you're doing it is more 2 separate families...it is hard to fit a lot..just like if you had 2 families living together, space would be cramped...
12 Feb 09, 23:43
Skylark: But unless those babies go to a close friend you can plot with... they're gone.
12 Feb 09, 23:43
Rosabella: I'd just want one from each generation- There's a reason Anthem has two, and Aysun was going to have one. But then there's my limit and the kids can't have kids.
12 Feb 09, 23:42
Dylan: Not necessarily Rosa, for you can still breed after the limit is reached and distribute the offspring to those who have room for a few more draconics therefore making a large extended family :3
12 Feb 09, 23:42
Pre: Well..it depends on the number from each generation you'd want....and of course, second characters give some people a slight advantage there...but *shrugs*...it could limit plots a bit..but then, if you try, I'm sure it could -inspire- plots as well, given the different living arrangments...*shrugs*
12 Feb 09, 23:41
Dylan: I think the Draconic limit is good sice you're only allowed one cave and if you get up to six big dragons then it really would get cramped
12 Feb 09, 23:40
Rosabella: It just...Ruins plots for me. We can create plots with the parents, but the kids are pretty much stuck forever as "barren", or as bad parents because they abandon all of their kids.
12 Feb 09, 23:40
Dylan: Hey Rosa
12 Feb 09, 23:39
Pre: Personally..I sort of like the limit..but I've always been odd in liking fewer pets I guess xP....*shrugs* just seems to make sense though, very few families have more than 5 of the family in one house...
12 Feb 09, 23:39
Rosabella: Hi Dylan
12 Feb 09, 23:38
Dylan: Hola
12 Feb 09, 23:38
Pre: Not if you have room....you could easily have 1 parent and 4 babies from that clutch...but *shrugs*
12 Feb 09, 23:37
Rosabella: If we start out with more than just one draconic, it already works like that...
12 Feb 09, 23:37
Rosabella: Aren't we limited to that, really, already?
12 Feb 09, 23:36
Pre: Which would then limit you to only getting one child from each clutch....
12 Feb 09, 23:35
Rosabella: That way, you still have to love them as your family to do that...And that way the kidlets don't get depressed because they can't have kids and their kin is stuck forever.
12 Feb 09, 23:34
Rosabella: My opinion- It works exactly like the Harachiu, give or take loyalty requirement. Once all are loyalty whatever, you're allowed one more draconic.
12 Feb 09, 23:32
Skylark: The draconics are like family... a family of 6 is a little crowded. But families still grow...
12 Feb 09, 23:31
Rosabella: Right. Like, I have two- My dreaming egg and Anthem. Once Anthem has his two kids, and Aysun has one- My limit is full and their kids can't do anything.
12 Feb 09, 23:31
Kitsu: Because... I really want more than five. Because... My two already have mates, what about their babies?
12 Feb 09, 23:29
Rosabella: Like...Seth does. All of your harachiu have to be loyalty 30 before you can get another. If he worries so much; Why not do the same thing with draconics?
12 Feb 09, 23:29
Kitsu: Agreed with rosa.
12 Feb 09, 23:28
Rosabella: Exactly. I mean...Once you hit the limit...It's like there's no point anymore; You can't do anything else. Someone should suggest a loyalty cap.
12 Feb 09, 23:27
Skylark: Everyone who wants to breed probably runs out of room. x.o
12 Feb 09, 23:27
Obsidion: I totally would breed them more if there wasn't a 5-Draconic restriction... *sighs and goes off again*
12 Feb 09, 23:26
Kyle: Nobody ever breeds draconics ^^;

No, no no no no no.

Never raise the limit.

First of all Draconics are your family within the canyon correct? Well then why the hell would you want to pimp them out just so you can have more frakkin children that you have little time enough to rp for? Draconics will turn into the new orbaru. Remember how many generations there were supposed to be? And do you remember how many generations there actually were? The last thing I want to see is caves filled with babies that never get roleplayed like the orbaru. And I'm not saying having that many orbaru is bad, I'm just saying that people will breed simply to breed, and then they'll sell the children for ridiculously high prices, after all who needs the rookery when you can just sell them to another user?

Another point made by Ri, why in your right mind would you need more than five big-ass dragons. You really don't, hell you don't even need five small-ass little dragons.

Another issue that was brought up was plots within the family. Is it so ridiculous that the parents reserve visitation rights? I mean really just because the parents don't have room in their own caves doesn't mean they don't care. (Besides then maybe we could have court cases on Xroads...BUM BUM BUM)

Finally another point that was made was "Well what if we want our second generation or third generations to have babies?". Well first of all you can replace draconics in your cave. Secondly no one ever said that they couldn't breed, you just can't have them and breed them. The people that gain them from the rookery can still breed them. Is it not okay for someone else to gain use of your oh so exclusive bloodline and use it as they see fit cause it's their draconic?

Personally I am a firm believer in the Rookery. I have actually planned a future breeding with my drconic Merrow in that the other parent receives their share of the offspring while my own share go to the rookery. And when they get to the rookery they'll probably be snatched up by a lovely active user, I have full faith in Ashe's decisions, and then rped as such so that Merrow may visit with his children and his grandchildren, or hell even his great grandchildren.

I, personally, would like a limit...

5 is very few, and doesn't give you much room to do much. Sometimes, one clutch, and you're full...

And I understand that Draconics are supposed to be your 'babies' and 'friends', not your 'pets'...

But I have more than 5 cousins. I have more than 5 friends. My grandparents had more than 5 kids.

I've seen more and more people turn down the chance at relationships with other Draconics, just because they can't 'afford' to have the babies in their keeps. I, personally, have had to give away babies I wanted because I had 'no room'. I'd imagine that my Kodakai, who is a clever fellow, would be very sad to give his babies up to the 'orphanage' for some stranger to pick up. You would be sad if I forced you to give up your babies, right? (This of course, is not always the case. Some Draconics would want to give their babies to new homes and all...)

There are so many beautiful and interesting Draconics out there. New kinds are developing as it is, right? It kind of sucks to have to get rid of a Draconic you like for one that you like just a little more, right? How do you pick and choose so few to be the only ones you can ever have? It was nice when there were only 7 kinds of Draconics - but now there are going to be more and babies, too!

I am AGAINST a 'loyalty requirement'. Unfortunately - that's not as good of a system as it should be. All that does is make people want to make small, uninteresting posts to 'make the requirement real fast', and gives those of us who want to have long, intensive posts and roleplays the short end of the stick.

If people know 'I can get my Kitava up to level 30, then get more babies! :D' they'll post just to get more babies. Then, people will just post that much, so they can have more babies... and maybe even start 'collecting'.

In short, I feel that making some sort of requirement on it kind of ruins the 'feel' of it all, too. Draconics and hatchlings and babies are no longer 'friends' and 'family' - but 'requirements'. Something that people can get to that level, just to get 'what's new and cool' and then leave them to sit and do nothing afterward.

I am sort of at a strange point... I want there to be able to have more Draconics - but not so many that they are no longer special to the users. I want enough space to have a family, maybe a 'first gen' or two, and then each a few of their offspring - which is really hard to do with only 5 spaces to work with. However, I don't think that every Draconic needs to breed and bring more babies into the house, just so those babies can breed and make an insanely large family, either.

So, in short, I AM for a small increase in the number of Draconics you can get - however, I am NOT for the idea that you could, with 'x number' posts, get an 'unlimited' amount.

Let me point out the flaw in your plan, Kyle- You've completely thrown out the fact I asked for loyalty caps. You have to get each and every single one of your draconics to a certain loyalty before you can even have one more.

Which still leaves babies that go to the Rookery, does it not? People don't have to give up their children's babies to people they don't even know will really play with it... It's not the bloodline.

Honestly. Everyone, except the people who get special Dreaming Egg colorations(Which, really in essence, is the first "offspring"...It's just differently colored than the readily available ones) starts out with the same thing. Bloodlines aren't the issue.

It's the people who want their draconics kids to have plots- And maybe have a larger family.

It's not likely people will get very far over the five limit with a large loyalty cap- After a point, people will be happy. And all the draconics will be cared for, because... Loyalty 50. Or 30. With every single draconic you own. Is not neglecting.

Perhaps it would be prudent of me to give you an idea of what I had in mind when I thought up of the draconics, other than just "dragons would be cool to have, people like dragons."..

First - I only wanted people to have one dragon - their bonded. Somebody that would share their very soul with them. A friend, a family member, only more than that - so much more. Never to be considered a "pet" by any means, not even those with less in brain-power.

Second - I realized my users' need to "collect".. Oh my god, this is a collecting game, just as much as it is a roleplaying game. As such, I decided to allow the users to have more than one (but only one bonded) - never letting go of the fact that ALL Draconics are to be treated like family. They are, after all, all sentient - and only living with you by their own choice.

Why five? Because that allows you (basically) to have one bonded, their mate, and two babies... Wait - that's four.. how about one more for good measure, right? Yeah - that's one extra just for fun.. generous, right?

Oh - I didn't answer your question yet? Why five? It's not just a matter of space - but keep in mind that the canyon is not a place of infinate space.. you have a cave, not a cavern without walls... True - the warehous of the kennels is infiniate (really, he uses sub-dimensional portals)... But.. honestly - Five huuuge, all-powerful fire-breathing dragons is quite enough. Dragons are more powerful than creatures.. even more-so than Lab created beasts (generally speaking).. The Draconics aren't meant to be collected - they're meant to be family.

Want to extend your family? Good! Great! Wonderful! Your bonded, their mate, and their children can live together.. and when the children grow up - they MOVE OUT... That doesn't mean that the children will stay forever as will the grand-children and the aunts and uncles and cousins and twice-removed best friends of said cousins... dont' get rediculous now..

But, but.. I want all my babies! No. Sorry. See, another wonderful thing about Draconic breedings - is that not only are they FREE, but everyone has a chance to a special draconic right from the start.. You can either adopt one from the web-site, or adopt one from the hatchery here on the X-roads.. I expect there to be a lot of breedings where people decide they don't want to take home babies at all... Why would a draconic do this? To not only help continue the line of their people (they are a dying race) - but to help strengthen the pact between draconic and man alike.. The best way to do this is to allow their children to be in the hands of those who will one day bond with them.. or so they can hope.

What about dreaming eggs? Okay - for starters, the dreaming eggs only hatch because they are part of you.. They are your hopes, your dreams, your heart, and your soul.. of course they are bonded immediately - they're bonded before they even hatch!!!

In the future, we may allow "dreaming shifts".. that is.. your dreams.. they have potential to change, do they not? As such, you may be able to order an additional "draconic" in teh future - and that draconic will replace your current dreaming draconic in image and form only (it's heart, mind, etc - would remain the same).

Loyalty = more? ... I'm sorry.. just because I love you does not mean I'm going to let your whole posse move into my 2-bedroom appartment...

**********

EDIT:

I know it's a fantasy world and all that, and you can "be what you want to be" without limitations, etc.. but honestly.. just think about the kennels.. How many people, really.. would have 100+ pets.. be able to afford to feed and water them, play with them every day so they didn't die of loneliness or become feral, clean out their shit, etc..? If you think about it - almost every single user has a ZOO... that they single-handedly take care of... or not. Okay, honestly - nobody actually takes care of it.. they just throw critters in a cement box, and play with a select few, leaving the rest to rot... The humane society would have a fit. Honestly.

What would your character (honestly) do if they met a dragon..? This is a creature with the mental capacity far beyond your own, magical - and can eat you in less than single bite, and no effort at all... And you're wasting it's time... Honestly - what would you do..? Then - let's pretend it says, "Hello, my name is Kathamek - I've come to make an alliance, mortal."... What would you honestly do..? I can just imagine the answers now.

Then,after what you said, let me point out one thing- Make my argument with that- And then change my argument earlier.

So...After a point...We give away the children or the parents we worked so hard with...? Then it's just depressing.

"Oh, HI, we love you but we want your kids to move into our house so we're kicking you to a complete stranger we don't even know who will hopefully bring you to come see us. We don't know if they will. But we can hope!"

Because...You leave the option of the kids moving out; To the kids going to another person altogether. There's no place where we can still roleplay with them- Even if they're not our own anymore. There's no guarantee the new owner would keep anything about them.

So, I agree with Silver- Allow for a bit more space, if not a whole lot more, for people who want more than just five people in their family.

Don't all parents kick their children out eventually though? Heck if some babies don't get kicked out soon enough they get eaten o.o

That's only in America; In old Indian tribes, Grandparents, parents, kids would all be in the same house. Other countries still function that way.

And - as most books, mythologies, etc have dragons portrayed - they make their clutch, and leave them as soon as they're able to fly (which is in a matter of weeks).

That's not how draconics are, but still - you could easily turn that point around.

But...You emphasize family... There's, in my family, a grandfather- His sister- His sister's daughter, husband, and her four kids(all either just out of college, in college, or finishing high school) living in one house. It works, because they're helping eachother out.

They'd never dream of turning their own family away due to lack of space...And when the kids move out, they stay close by, just so they can all stay together.

Isn't that the way family is supposed to really work?

-raises hand- I'm not even choosing a side here, but can just ask... why is RPing them in Misc so 'ooohh TERRIBLE!'? I mean.. I do a lot of RPing with my characters offsite that came from here, like Maurus, Earthshake, and ESPECIALLY Nekane. Hell, LENORA, my Water Draconic? An interpretation of her character is going in my NOVEL, as is Nekane (and Maurus and Shake under the name of Gaia). So you don't RP with them in the main section, big whoop! They're still there if you want them to be, still yours if you desire to keep them offsite.

So I restate - WHAT is the big deal with keeping them offsite or in a journal to RP Misc or elsewhere? They're just as good.

The kids are close by when they move out, they're still in the canyon after all

Not if the people they go to decide that they don't want to roleplay with you, or they want to completely change the kids altogether, since we're not given a choice with how the people they go to treat them/what they do to them.

Erm, if there were more draconics allowed in the canyon, it might become more active. When fishing opens -cough cough- hint hint -cough- your draconics will have more attention. As a user, I only rped with my draconics to save them from disappearance. So I'm not much help here.