Dinosaur Re-creation

For the 'people are morons' thing going on- humanity is sort of a species of morons in that it can't leave things alone. XP We're working our way to destruction, and on the way finding out a bunch of things that -might- lead to something bigger, if we don't destroy the world first. While it's interesting, human lives are really short compared to everything else out there.

Now, back on topic, I think it would be very interesting to bring back extinct creatures. If we could master nature and actually take CARE OF it, then that's all fine and dandy. But, humans will overrun the world in population alone, so where would we even put these dinosaurs? The sea-dwelling ones would have plenty of room, but we don't have anywhere big enough for herds of dinosaurs, if it ever got that far. And, really, re-creating a creature that could eat us in a fair fight without batting an eyelid, is similar to how we're making computers that are becoming more and more advanced.

Worry about Terminator movies becoming reality, or Jurassic Park? Either way, it's cool while it lasted, and I'm all for it. XD The world is not a place for morals in science these days, as cruel as that may sound.

For global warming...won't even get into that subject, though I don't believe it in the sense that the term has become.

(Dinotopia would be cool, but we lack a friendly talking dino-buddy. XD)

*shrugs* A reletive of mine does this for living "in real life"...
Not specifically related to dinosaurs, but still...

You know.. if they had the power to re-fabricate dinosaurs (which they would with the frozen tissue they found), I don't see a single reason why not to.. plus, if they did THAT - then surely they could bring back the Thylosine, the Passenger Pigeon, and they could most certainly use that to prevent the Cheetahs (etc) from becoming extinct...

I personally would love to have a pet Archeopteryx... then again, I do own a "game-site" that's based off of genetic manipulation and engeneering anyway....

You know.. we have glow-in-the-dark pigs.. and fish that have their hearts flash neon colors now, right..? All due to genetic engeneering.. and you know, tomatos are healthier now, 'cause all the plants (save for those from the seed-savers community) are genetically engeneered... Did you know that apples weren't actually RED 100 years ago? They were kinda' a dusty yellowish color... Just a hint of "rougue"... And that changed, 'cause of genetic engeneering..

Heck - look at all the sicknesses that are gone now, 'cause of that science.. Look at the sicknesses that WILL be gone (like cancer)...

Even when genetic engeneering wasn't done with test-tubes - it was still done a loooong time ago.. how do you think we got so many different breeds of dogs? People thought about what they wanted, did what was needed, and got the results.. ta-da! Jack Russel Terrier! Invented by.. *gasp* Mr. Jack Russel! ... ya' know?



Meh.. if they brought back dinosaurs, I'd say "holy shit that's cool!"

I second this.

And, honestly, it's not going to turn out like Jurassic Park if it ever did happen. I'm guessing human beings could at least be a little more intelligent than that.

I don't think I added anything of value to this debate.

Also, you meat eaters (myself included here)

You know they genetically engineer chickens to be so fat they can't walk?

And cows with so much muscle they die cause their legs can't hold up their fat and the collapse?

And chickens without feathers?

And turkeys that are stupid enough to drown in the rain?

FACE IT. Science is there.... and it's gonna do stuff you don't like.

Yeah... but that part was an accident. :P

If I could add a bit more to this...? While science does stuff you don't like, in the long run it is to do something to help you. It's doing animal testing so that people with malaria don't die, or so that paralyzed people can regain use of whatever limbs they can't use. I mean... I was watching a movie in my Biology class (which really is a horrible class; I know more than the teacher in some areas) and there was a rat that had partialy regained the use of its back legs because they tested the procedure on it to see if it worked. Now how did that hurt the rat?

But... Really this isn't what the thread is about, so I guess I'll shut up and live with my opinion-post.

Well, I think it COULD be kinda cool to being back some of the more small and harmless dinosaurs. It's a nice idea. Kinda utopian, but, with all the modern technology, quite possible. Imagine having little pet micro raptors running about your bedroom! Funfun! XD;;

But cloning things like T-rexes? I think that that's...well, to be quite blunt, I think it's stupid. It's a very dangerous thing to do. Risky. Insane, even. And how would they care for it? How to feed it and give it a place big enough to roam?

All they're thinking about it proving that it could be done; the scientists, in my opinion, arent thinking about the consequences enough.

Slap me in the face and call me jack.

I don't think this is worng, neccisarily, but there is one thing I have to, whisper... into all of your ears.

THIS WILL NEVER BE ACHIEVED IN REAL LIFE!!! (sory for all caps)

I DO have a wild imagination, trust me. TRUST me. But the recreation of dinosaurs (unless you are making plastic look-alikes/ or you live in MML xD) IS IMPOSSABLE. Both scientificaly AND, although we, humans, clone things now, the recreation of life, THAT lived A LONG TIME AGO will be EXTREMLY difficult.

So, why argue over somthing like this, if it will NEVER happen? Plus, Jarrasic Park, like silver said, IS A MOVIE, created in someone's MIND that was most likely VERY CREATIVE!

*done/ sorry for caps :)*

You're trying to tell me... something that cries out in pain when you hurt it... doesn't have feelings? You're trying to tell me that my puppy, who snuggles with me and whines when I'm sad... doesn't have feelings?

You're trying to tell me, Dolphins, as SMART as humans, maybe MORE so. The only creatures other than humans known to have sex for nothing more than -pleasure- doesn't have feelings?

Honestly... and I'm sorry if this offends you (but you've well and offended me)...

That's one of the stupidest things I've heard in a while.


That's just... such an egotistical downright MEAN and definatly WRONG thing to say.

o.o Whoa. Whoa. Whoa.

I personally am a FIRM believer that animals feel just as much, if not more than, humans. They're so much more pure than humans. They don't care that "Julie said that Tom said that Steve called me a whore." They don't care that they missed a TV show cause TiVo didn't tape it. They don't feel the same way we do, because why should they? They only need the bare necessities to be happy with who they are, and who cares what's in the mirror. They're just not selfish, like humans are. Humans rely on man made things to be happy, and being happy to live must be alien to some people, because it's suddenly not feeling? Animals get angry, they get sad, they show happiness, they get scared, they love They even make friendships. I could give you examples of EACH EMOTION if you like. Tell me how that's different from a human.

Any scientist that says animals can't feel - HOW do they know? Scientists can't even tell what humans feel, mostly.

I second Silver. My arguement may not be as good as hers, since I have a weird way of explaining what I think, but people who disregard animals because they can't talk and tell us they feel, are the reason animals and people aren't living in harmony. That's...horrible.

*pokes head in* Technically, Jurassic Park is a book, with plot and pseudo-science created in the mind of Michael Crichton, a prolific sci-fi writer. Many books that he writes are based off of very cutting edge science, stuff that doesn't quite work yet and so far has no practical applications, like nanotechnology, quantum physics, and cloning. He takes these ideas and spins them into a possible worst-case scenario. In Jurassic Park, the then-infant field of cloning spun out of control through human error and general arrogance. It's a common theme in many of his books. In Timeline, studies in the quantum structure of the universe led to technology that allowed a team of archaeologists to go back in time via subatomic wormholes, and then get slaughtered in the middle ages. In Prey, a swarm of nanobots infected, controlled and killed a variety of main characters.

The common thread here? All of the stories are based off of plausible ideas, and existing scientific discussion that are expanded to a hypothetical outcome that we will never achieve. We will not go back in time to the middle ages. Time tourism is just not possible, regardless of the fact that quantum foam does exist. And we will never bring back the dinosaurs. Yes, cloning exists, but for the purpose of the book, some liberties were taken with the existing technologies. Here's what Wiki has to say:

By the way, Velociraptors? Are only about knee-high. And probably had feathers.

As far as using cloning to bring back other extinct species? Well, they're already trying that with currently endangered species, for example: pandas. Scientists are currently using every fertility treatment that exists to try to keep them from dying off, from artificial insemination to cloning to viagra to panda porn, for goodness sake.

When it comes to bringing back, say, the dodo, well, you need complete, intact DNA. Without complete strands, you really can't do anything. The only reason the were able (in the fictional book) to clone dinosaurs was because of the fossilized mosquito (which, for reasons explained above, can't actually work). And, even if you were able to successfully clone an extinct creature, you couldn't successfully resurrect an entire species (at least, not a healthy one). I mean, what about genetic variation? If you start with just the one DNA sample, there's no way there'd be enough variation to provide a healthy amount of mutations to allow for selection of the fittest and general propagation of the species. I mean, even current conservation efforts, where there's more than one individual involved in the propagation of the species are plagued with illnesses and vulnerabilities that come from a lack of genetic variation.

All that's without even getting into the question of available habitat. I mean, It's been a long time since the dinosaurs roamed the earth. We've had not one, but two ice ages since then, not to mention the slight change of continental drift. Their original habitats have either completely changed, or been completely wiped out. And guess what? Those habitats that still remain are now populated with whole ecosystems that didn't exist before. Re-introducing dinosaurs would wipe out those populations, either because of a new predator, or new competition for food and territory. So who has more right to the land, then? Velociraptors or Jaguars? There's no way that, even if we could bring back dinosaurs (which we can't), we could keep them alive.

It's not a question of "should we or shouldn't we," because we can't. The question is moot.

I think it would be freaking awesome to see a live dinosaur. xD Can't think of much else to comment on, since others have already said most of what I was thinking... ^^; I don't see how it would be wrong in any way unless they couldn't be cared for properly. When they're using the animals to help create them, don't see how that would be bad either. As long as they're not hurting anything.
And I can imagine they'd be kept in captivity... I mean... why the heck would you release them into the wild? /That/ is when bad things would happen.

And to the 'animals don't have feelings' comment.... That just disgusted and ticked me off so much... >_> Saying that I completely disagree with that would be a BIG understatement. And telling it to us as if it were a /fact/ is just /so/ offensive. Humans are animals too, you know. I couldn't agree more with what Silver and Ashe said...

This post has been edited by Sharra Kat on Mar 5 2008, 06:38 PM

This is actually a GOOD idea. Jurassic Park: FORGET IT. Jurassic Park was a load of Dinosaur lies. If we recreate Dinosaurs in small controllable populations, within labs, we could discover medical innovations, and much more. Keep in mind- these are LAB populations- NOT wild.

On another note, yes, animals can feel. They can, period. And, before it gets started, just want nto make the point. Changing DNA in embryos is not cruel, considering they are just a mass of cells, and cannot quite think yet, plus, will be born as they are, hence not cruelty. And, scientists tend to have enough brains to euthanize a suffering creature.

Major Kudos, Shev.

Getting over the fact that it is scientifically impossible to genetically recreate dinos... There's no reason to do that in the first place.

Everything humans have done in the past as far as genetics and technology are concerned were founded by curiosity and relevance. Even the occasional "happy mistakes" we've made in the past (read: insulin) were spawned by the quest to find something else - something that would do/prevent/effect something positively. Generally. Even guns were created with defense in mind.

Anyway - Dinosaurs have absolutely no relevance to anything going on in the world today. I'd like to say their biological niches have been filled, but the flat case is that they don't exist anymore. When dinos ruled, mammals weren't around. Granted, therpasids were... but they are our remotest cousins and they didn't grow to be much larger than the average house cat.

Look at any stable ecosystem. The number of secondary/tertiary consumers that are there are strictly limited by the number of producers/primary consumers available - and quaternary consumers are almost impossible to find. While you could try to throw in the dino equivalent of a jaguar... it just wouldn't work. They're evolved to digest things that don't exist today, and vice versa.

It's the same with herbivores; even plants have spent the past multi-million years evolving. There are whole phyla of plants that exist now that weren't around back then. And I know I don't have to be the one to tell you that plants are filled with all sorts of chemicals able of doing wonky things to people; God forbid a dino chomp down on a Cycad. It takes a month for an adult human to die of the liver cancer Cycads cause, and I'm sure the poor dinosaur would be down for at least as much suffering. After all, they haven't had a chance to evolve defenses to plant constructs that didn't exist when they were around.

As for looking at them for medicinal reasons? What purpose could a dinosaur possibly serve? That's a bit like using an abacus to do your calculus. They're just so outdated.

Really the only thing dinosaurs are good for is exploring evolutionary connections, and they do that just fine from where they are now.

Mind you, this isn't all to say that I don't think that would be damn cool... Have you SEEN the dracorex hogwartsia skull!? If that guy came back to life I would be pissing pure happy.

And as for animals not feeling? Bullshit.
Trust me on this one. I'm on the verge of spending the rest of my life dedicated to the things - they feel.

I have to disagree Pender.

It IS genetically possible. If you actually watched the program, and look through the facts.......Yes, as they said, in 50 years, Dino LIKE creatures would be possible. The geneticists were able to have a chicken embryo- mainrain tail vertabrae, have them GROW TEETH on the beaks, and grow scales and feathers in abnormal locations. As for wings to arms, think of Archaeopteryx. Wing- arms, is what they say. Now, yes, it may be hard or impossible, but in 50 years, "Emuasaurus" as they called a possible "Dinosaur" replica, could very well be done.

And with environmental niches- these WOULD NOT be wild populaions. As I stated before, these would logically be lab kept small, managable populations, not interfering with the wild and current habitats. Because, I DO agree that they do not belong wild on Earth today, but in a lab setting, I'm good with it.

I also agree that yes, they would help with evolutionary connections much, and is yet another purpose to recreate them.