Title: Loyalty and Levels
Description: Purchase or Earn?
Spirit - May 27, 2009 05:47 AM (GMT)
Feel free to express your opinions here.
Vixen - May 27, 2009 05:48 AM (GMT)
Earn, but if you miss them, there should be an alternative that doesn't involve buying your way out. Shev had an excellent suggestion, so I'll wait for her to post it here.
Volos - May 27, 2009 05:51 AM (GMT)
I think, if you could PROVE you had a reasonable cause for not being able to play with your 'Loyalty req' pet, there could be some wait to purchase it? Maybe you could roleplay with it in a certain area to get it up to said requirement but it resets as zero when you go back into the normal training area but now the pet will listen to you? Yeah..
Or something you pay for with credits that can be uber expensive that raises their loyalty. So you still have to roleplay to get it? (Make it a bajillion credits or maybe even 999 credits..)
SEE, real money doesn't have to come in and it can still be bought.
Mika - May 27, 2009 05:51 AM (GMT)
Yeah, I get sick of being bus with school work so I miss a req and have to spend 6 bucks to morph a pet back and forth. .-.'' It's a good idea, but an alternative would be nice. For example, with my custom species I'm getting from DWF, I'm talking to Pender about doing "req" differently, with things like costing extra TP to train, and cutting to half loyalty (or NOT growing upwards to normal loyalty growth). It's just so HARD sometimes when classes or other IRL things bog you down, and then you miss it and have to pay either hefty credits or enough bucks that could be a custom or half a NEW breeding, or tons of LEs, ya know?
Seth - May 27, 2009 06:01 AM (GMT)
I think it's a interesting idea. It would work well to purchase these for pets that you bought off someone. A lot of limited pets that had reqs usually get sold off or tossed all together because the original owner didn't make it in time, and no one wants to by a pet that they can not train. It's also a good idea for pets that get passed on when a user leaves and someone else inherits it. You can't train the pet if it doesn't listen to you, but you don't want to give it away because it was a 'parting gift' from a friend.
Everlyn - May 27, 2009 06:08 AM (GMT)
Just tossing this out there, be tellin me if it be a stupid idea, plz. :P
An item - I'm thinking something which functions similar to the Amulet of Submission? - which can be bought for USD/Credits. Only worth one use to get one pet up to loyalty requirements. Or a special training area, if that would be preferable. That way, someone could moderate and make sure (complete) crap posts aren't being made just to make the req.
But it means you can train your pet - but it should have some limitation or something. Loyalty grows at half the rate for the norm of the species, perhaps?
That way, you still get to train the critter up, but it's harder. And you still get to do it on your own time. So it's kind of a 'reward' to those who leveled their pets on time to not have to work 'twice' as hard, and not a huge of a hindrance to those who haven't?
'S late, so sorry if this is relatively incoherent.
I like Shev's negative loyalty thing too, it's simpler. :P
Shevaru - May 27, 2009 06:13 AM (GMT)
Loyalty should always be earned. This is true in life, and equally true here. It is my opinion that it cannot and should not be purchased.
However. In certain situations, events may conspire to keep us from our pets. We may simply not have the time to interact with them before they grow. We may not be inspired so much by the babies but be completely taken by the adults. Whatever the reason, a pet may grow and we might miss the requirement. In that case, what's to be done? Just toss it out, or shove it in a kennel to rot because we are no longer able to use it? We can of course anti-grow it, but that just might not work in certain plots or situations. I personally don't like anti-growths, since I just can't seem to work my head around how to rp them.
What if, for certain species, there was an alternative? It could work this way: A species would have a loyalty requirement. If a person misses the requirement, the pet would automatically have "Negative Loyalty" The amount could vary from species to species, causing the pet to either completely ignore the owner or actively hate the owner, or anything in between. We could have a "Negative Loyalty" scale that mirrors our current loyalty scale. In order to train the pet, you would have to rp with it enough to raise it's loyalty back up to zero. Additionally, pets whose requirements were missed could gain loyalty at half rate, quarter rate, etc.
At the time of each species' growth, there would be note underneath the announcement of the req that "If the loyalty requirement was not met, this breed now has a loyalty of negative ___ and gains loyalty ___ times slower than normal." Some species (that is, the ones you want to keep zomgsuperrare) would simply continue on as we are now- basically pass/fail.
But for the rest, the ones there "to reward those that liked the pet enough to play with it in the first place", why not allow others who like the pet enough to work three, four, five times as hard to keep their pet rather than take the (comparably) quick and easy anti-growth workaround the opportunity to do so?
Akina Bellen - May 27, 2009 06:13 AM (GMT)
Honestly? I see no reason why people should have to buy loyalty or levels.
If you miss a level requirement get a professional trainer to train them to that level and then you can train them.
Loyalty? Earn it people! It's not something that can be bought with shiny coins.
If people were allowed to buy loyalty and levels... well I can see a lot less Roleplaying going on. Anyone would be allowed to be a professional trainer if they had the credits or USD to buy it.
I see being a professional trainer a reward! You worked hard for it. So you get this reward. I like having it that way. It's special to those people who worked hard enough for it! We didn't go out an buy it! We rightfully Roleplayed for this title!
And even if the item(s) are only allowed to be bought by credit's, people could just send in USD to purchase those credits to buy the item(s). Not much Roleplaying in sending money in...
If you miss any req of any kind you don't need to 'buy' loyalty or levels. An Anti-growth is all that's needed!
The way I see it:
You miss a req, it's your fault. You didn't have the time, you plain forgot or something really big came up with your life. Ok it happened. Go to the shop and get an Anti-growth or purchase it with USD
Someone gives you a gift, it's their fault if they gave it to you after the growth. You had nothing to do with it. Go to the shop or send in USD for an anti-growth or work something out with the person who gave it to you.
You buy it from the trades, you knew what you were getting into. Go to the shop or send in USD for an anti-growth.
Anti-growths are a way around the missing a loyalty or level req (I see it that way anyway ^^; ) And if you missed the req you should have to work to make it back up. Why would someone want to pay for loyalty that they could rightfully earn with that pet by Roleplaying?
I know I'd feel like I was cheating if I purchased loyalty for any of my pets. Like I was taking the easy way out. I want to work for the loyalty or levels of my pets. (that's just me, of course, others may feel differently) I don't see any reason why this should change.
Really 75 credits for an anti-growth isn't that expensive! And it should be easy to get back by roleplaying with your newly anti-growthed pet! Heck just RPing in the mines for one month can get you enough items to sell and buy another Anti-growth...
Now there may be some circumstances where buying loyalty might come in handy, as Seth pointed out someone leaves a pet behind and that person has no loyalty to a pet that has a loyalty req. Like a custom, it's impossible to anti-grow a custom.
In that case it might be handy.
But more often then not an Anti-growth is the simplest solution. It makes it so that you have to roleplay with that pet to reach the req.
Shev's Idea makes sense, a good alternative, but how many people will take advantage of it? Working four/five times as hard versus spending 150 credits or $6 for an anti-growth and re-growth, how many people would actually take the 'work four times as hard' option if they really are that busy with their RL's and such things?
I agree that character skills should go to req's.
And perhaps if anti-growths were more common in the shops and there was a limit on how many you could buy people wouldn't have to spend so much USD on one. It is quite frustrating when they finally do get stocked and then someone buys them all up right away.
Eh that's all I can think of right now. My brain's to tired. If I think of something else I'll add it ;3
Obsidion - May 27, 2009 06:26 AM (GMT)
I hate Anti-growths. I really, truly, do. I only did it with Sherry because, as gorgeous as she turned out, she is definitely no older than a baby in any context. Yes, they're easily bought with credits, but they don't restock all that often and usually someone swoops in and buys all of them once the thread is opened. For the people who want them... well, that pretty much sucks. Plus, having to spend however much amount of money/credits needing to grow it to and from wherever you want it. THEN. If the species in question is an Adult, well, you have to spend another $3 or 75 credits for the offspring/LE/Common/whatever in question to grow it along with everything else. So, spending $9 on something you spent $10 on in the first place? Not the greatest of things...
I like Shev's idea with the negative loyalty, but to make things a little easier, have them grow in half the normal rate of the species until they reach a loyalty of 0 and then it goes back to normal.
Also, what about the Character Skills? If you spend 4 Points on something, I know I'd at least like it if they, you know, counted for something? So having the Skills work toward loyalty reqs would be amazing, I know that much. 40 posts to get something that won't help you... eh... not too much of a fan.
Yeah, I try to meet reqs when I can, but sometimes you get an offspring later than you anticipated because of the thread or something, and then, what, you're stuck with an offspring who won't listen to you just because someone wouldn't post, even though they were on? What about ones that were bought from someone else or gifted to you before the growth? You might only have like... one week to get something up to (possibly) a loyalty of 10. Yes, do-able, but not if you're stricken with massive muse-fail, get sick, or go on vacation or something.
Anyway, my two-cents, take it how you will.
Shevaru - May 27, 2009 06:39 AM (GMT)
I would, for certain pets. I honestly don't know how many others would, but it seems to me like something that would be fairly easy to implement and maintain, and just to have it as an option would be, in my opinion, a Good Thing. I like options.
Plus, the negative loyalty chart could be yet another tool or framework. Y'know all those crosses that hate everyone because of their very existence? With the chart, we'd know exactly how much. ;)
Obs raises a good point with the offspring. In addition to the variable speed of replies to the thread, offspring do 'jump' from baby to the current lifestage, which means that certain species took several months to grow several stages up to the point of the req, but subsequent offspring take one month go go from baby to req, which can be frustrating.
Speckle - May 27, 2009 06:41 AM (GMT)
I really really like Shev's idea and I know I for one would totally use it.
I also agree with Obs on the skill point issue. True bonding costs 5 skill points, which is 50 posts, to get the amount of loyalty you could have gotten with 25 posts. Of course it should only work if used before the species grew and gained their req, but it should still count for something.
Skylark - May 27, 2009 10:58 AM (GMT)
I like levels how they are. If you missed it, get a professional trainer or get a new pet to level. Easy.
And I like the ideas for loyalty. This might just be the selfish side of me that doesn't want to spend extra money on a pet I might have missed, especially since I just took a gamble and lost. I thought one offspring would be a pure and the other a painter. And of course it turned out to be the other way around. S'all good. I took a risk. I didn't think I had to stamina to loyalty up one more foal.
But, man, I can't tell you how much I'd like to be able to play with the beautiful creature she's become.
So yeah. Adding my opinion. ._.;
Shevaru - May 27, 2009 03:12 PM (GMT)
Oh yeah, because I forgot to mention it last night- I believe level reqs should remain exactly as they are. Missing a level requirement doesn't mean you can never use the pet again, it just means you have to get some one else to help out a bit. Having any sort of easy way around that makes professional trainers sort of irrelevant.
Savina - May 27, 2009 04:50 PM (GMT)
okay. I maybe new and will properly unatenttet afent som one.
but. I realy don't se a realy good reasen to chaince ennything on the levvel and loyalty thing.
wai do I meen this?
it's eysie frends. if I dont get the level in time. that just bad, but I do have a option to deal wit it. and the option I do have is working and good.
on the loyalti side, the option there is just as good as the level option. If I dont get it til the right time. bad for me. but I still have a option to deal with it on. 6 $'s is not that bad.
okay, I have mumbling for my self that the loyalty reg. was maybe a little to high, but to be ornestly if I realy had love the critter so much that I will play with it in it's adult or old state, I wood have make a bigger effort to get it up in loyalti and then it wood not be a big problem. on the other site, If somthing in RIL gets in the way, I can chuse my option to deal with it.
so I will not have enny thing to chaince on this.
Ashe - May 27, 2009 07:51 PM (GMT)
Not way should loyalty ever be bought. Levels should be bought only in the sense of a pro trainer.
If you don't have the time to RP with your pets, then...you don't have the time to RP with your pets, which ever stage they're at. Most people who don't have time to RP, have a few customs or a "favorite" pet anyway- focus on them.
I know if I miss a req, it's MY fault. And *I* should have to pay for it. Whether that means stalking the shop, or paying for it instead of saving up for a crossbreed. You know?
I...don't know where I stand on Shev's idea. It's a good idea, but hot dang, you know how many people will take advantage of that? Posting extreme minimum, like many already do, only way more? I'm all for an extreme penalty- like, a quarter of the rate- just because it discourages those who want an easy-peasy cheat-worthy way out, and gives a sliver of hope to those who actually care. It would be super hard to have people monitor who posts what with what pet and such. I do like negative loyalty part of Shev's, though... And I understand a quarter loyalty might be a little much in some situations... But i dunno, things are messed up as it is, with people only focusing on meeting reqs, and then being too worn out to RP much after...
I sorta like, maybe, being able to win "more time" with a pet, or something, from the Pit. You've trained up one pet to win you these points, it's obvious you care for your pets, so here you go, more time with the one you missed!
If you're gifted with something before the growth, maybe contact Ri and ask if that one could wait because you just received it? And already, if the offspring go out late, they're excused, or you get extra time.
And the skills? Real simple. Don't spend skill points on skills you know won't help you. To my understanding, those are more for keeping your pets' loyalty high, so you don't have to train it to level 50 before going to the Beyond. It's for bonding fast in RP, and not needing to spend 50 posts for it to finally start liking you. It's for training other pets, who would rather have their masters. I don't want those to count toward the req, personally. It's not a "new sudden" thing that skills don't count, so people have known for a while not to get those for req-meeting...
Silverna - December 3, 2009 11:53 AM (GMT)
Hey-just a thought-perhaps there could be a "word count" method or something of gaining loyalty? Like, the more you roleplay when training, the more the loyalty goes up? Although I guess that would be hard to measure...it just popped into my head and I felt like mentioning it...