Do you have an opinion?, Let's hear it.

I don't understand people. The one's who think they are the shiznit(lack of a better word)expect to be publish on their first draft and never stepped a foot in either a writer's workshop or creative writing class. I don't expect to be publish until I'm much older, I have a lot to work on and learn before I can submit something.

Like Benj, this is the first time I have ever been involved in any area of fandom. In the last five years I had been writing complex political analysis and human rights articles which is as far away from fanfic as you can go. Also I had not written television drama for about fifteen years and as a screenwriter I was used to using present tense.

I was terrified of trying fanfic because I had commented on a number of fanfics and stepping up to the plate was fairly daunting. The most daunting thing of all for me was that there were so many seriously good fanfic writers, people who should rightfully earn their living through their elegant prose, crisp dialogue and beautifully constructed stories.

The first thing I learnt as a trainee script editor was how to handle writers with care. How you had to call them the moment their manuscript arrived. How important it was to find the good in the script before touching on area which 'needed more work.'

I have tried to encourage a number of first time fanfic writers with the following:

Then I came upon DIY Sheep and Betz88 which was like seeing self-absorbed scorpions circling each other in a ring of sand.

Well Betss. I am an old broad too and I do care what people think. I care what they think about their work and more importantly what they think about themselves. I have worked with a lot of writers and from the very famous to the totally unknown I have never met an insensitive writer. An insensitive writer is not merely an oxymoron it indicates a psychopath with a wordprocessor. Sensitivity is necessary for a writer if their characters are to have substance and their work is to have an impact. Without the need for conciliatry crap, I have never been dishonest with my feedback nor will I allow myself to cross the line from honesty into cruelty.

Betss, I don't give a damn whether you like WIPs or dislike them, you do not set my agenda. Of course you 'don't say stuff like, "in my humble opinion"' because while you have stated a number of opinions none could be described as humble.

I am not bothered by punctuation and am not interested in nitpicking. I look for plot, characterisation and structure. The ability believe in the characters and their experiences is the key to my acceptance.

My view is that writers write and editors punctuate, while with generosity and kindness, they guide and get the best from the writer. Having earnt my living by doing both at different times I can tell you that holds true in the real world. I have the greatest respect for good editors. You already know the respect I have for Taruia. I know many award-winning and best-selling writers whose first drafts would make your hair stand on end. Many writers could not have become literary lions or garnered critical acclaim if they had not married someone with a dictionary and a thesaurus.

Computers seem the enemy of grammar and punctuation. At the moment I cannot put out clean work because my printer is stuffed and for some reason I cannot see faults unless they are in hard copy. Also no one can edit their own work.

George Axelrod, an American screenwriter I knew in England who wrote the screenplay for "The Manchurian Candidate" authored "The Seven Year Itch" and "Bus Stop" was one of the most sensitive men I have met. He used to sit down at his desk everyday and the first thing he typed was ...

"Where am I now that I need me?"

George died over a year ago but that line still lives in my heart.

I can only hope that those who put their work up in this forum continue to meet with support, kindness and honesty. So when they ask themselves the question 'Where am I now that I need me?' they have enough confidence to access their talent.

I know, I know, you have read some of this before. So what.
Betss, if I have upset you, I am sorry. Oh you Minx! I'd forgotten. You don't care what I think, do you?

Well - fortunately there are a few nice people out there to counter us nasty cynical lot.

(by the way - what area of human rights do you specialize in Mags?)

But Magdala raises an interesting point. I have never dealt with fiction or screen plays that take years to work and rework.

But I defend Betz. I make no excuses for bad proofreading or typos. I simply cannot. And I really don't think it acceptable. I understand Mags is looking for different stuff. But I feel if you are going to write something you take the time and run it through the spell checker, just as curtesy to your readers.

Punctuation and spelling are so essential to a reader. They are how we read the what we read. If you can't control those two elements, then you can't control or you twist how people percieve what you write. I realise literary standards dropping - all over the world. But take this classic example. I must have seen it a good 30 times.

I particularly love James Bond fan fiction: Inevitably James Bond will turn rouge and M will have to find some way to stop her rouge agent.

Subtly changes the image of James doesn't?

Although to be fair there was that one time - first sentence in a review got through the spell checker and the proofreading team: 'All I new about this film'. I still cringe to this day.


I don't have six months to help a writer along with a story. I have an editing team that can cut down or typo, but that is it. I always give a potential writer a courtesy email, but they get thirty seconds while I skim read their article and decide if it has potential. I have a deadline, a fast turn around and a set of criteria so my demographic picks up my magazine so I can sell advertising.

But then this is different from fiction. Actually a criteria - you can tell the writer why their story doesn't work, explain it to them and ask them to rework it according to what you need - because journos and reviewers are aware that they are not just writing to express a muse, but a writing for an audience.

So that's where I am coming from. As you can see we all have very different approaches to what we look for or expect in writing.


And I also think Mags raises an interesting point: there is a difference between fan fiction and professional writing.

(but I also believe fan fiction can be a great training ground and should never say anything negative as you never know you are crushing some poor little tremulous writer)

However - there are some doozies out there on the internet... stories that don't even rate any sort of encouragement.

Don't believe me. Type in God Awfull Fan Fiction into Google and stand back in awe.

It is a big internet:

One guy doesn't actually write anything. He just puts in a description and we write amusing reviews about how surreal it is.

One story (can't remember the fandom) consisted of the word 'anyway'.

Then we have the rape fictions - the Weasley twins rape their brother Ron, etc.

And the one that sticks in my mind I cannot even begin to describe it is so horrible.

What do you say to those sort of stories?

Thank god that sort of thing doesn't happen in this fandom, but we our suspicion that one day there will be that story involving the cane.

But fortunately House fandom and the people who write the fiction tend to the other end of the spectrum and there are some really good stories. Although there is one rape so far - but quite well done.

All I'm saying is spell checker does not catch everything.

Let's see, where to start?

As a writer: I love the feedback yes I do. I value the constructive criticism that helps me write better (thanks Namaste and sy!). And the positive feedback -- even if it's just, "I'm enjoying it, thanks!" -- that's the fuel that keeps me going.

And we all love the detailed reviews -- oh, those are just catnip -- but if you don't have the time to write one, then just leave three or four words.

Because ultimately that's why we do what we do -- we write to connect with a reader, and if the reader leaves feedback, that affirms the connection. And in fan fiction, notes and reviews are pretty much the only thing we've got. If we're print authors, we can judge our success by our book sales. If we're TV writers, we can judge our success in making a connection through internet buzz, ratings, and DVD sales.

But as fan fiction writers, the only way we can see if we've "connected" is pretty much through feedback. If we have site statistics, we can use that, but that's hardly the same. On my ficblog, I was once looking over my statistics when I noticed an IP from the UK coming again and again. Over the space of a few days, this IP made almost 200 visits to the blog, and I could tell that the reader was reading the entire blog from the beginning.

Now, I could infer that this reader liked the blog at least a little, since she was taking the trouble to come back again and again. But it was so much more meaningful when, once she'd finished, she left a comment. "I've enjoyed it, thanks." Four words, that's all it took.

I once wrote a letter to a published author thanking her for her books. She wrote a lovely note back. If a "thank you" means that much to a published author who's been writing for thirty years, how much more it's going to mean to a fic writer!

When you buy a book, you're "paying" the author for your enjoyment through your purchase of the book. If you've appreciated a story, think of a "thank you" as your money in the tip jar.

As a reader, I don't always leave feedback, and here's why.

-- Sometimes I simply don't have anything to say. If I've left commentary on chapters 1-10 of a WIP, and 11 goes up and it's a short chapter without much plot development, I may not comment. I've already told the writer that I'm following the story, and I may prefer to wait until the next big installment, especially if I'm in a time crunch.

-- Another reason is that I simply haven't read the story. Magdala, I don't think you have to apologize for being "behind" on your reading -- relief of angina has to come first!

As for me, I don't have angina, but I have a preschool child, a husband, and a home business -- plus some looming major decisions -- and in my life, those have to come first. For my fic time, I give first priority to my own work and to writers that I've agreed to beta for. (OT, to the two authors who've asked me to beta for you, I haven't forgotten you!)

-- In addition to the time and RL thing, there are also some pairings, situations, ratings etc, that I know are simply not my cup of tea. There are some styles of writing that I just don't care for, to the point I find writing in that style simply unreadable. I'm not going to read those fics. And if I'm not going to read them, I'm not going to be leaving commentary, simple as that. Readers do not owe writers a reading.


Now for the hard saying: I lack time. So if I come across a fic that is poorly formatted and riddled with spelling and grammar errors, I'm probably not going to read it. I simply don't have the time to be slogging through misspelled words and incomplete sentences and dropped pronouns. And how can I enjoy a fic when I'm spending so much time trying to figure out what in the world the author is trying to say to me?

So to some extent, I'm with Betz and DIY Sheep on this one: Spelling and grammar count. If you want people to read your fic, make it easy for them to enjoy it. Double-space your paragraphs. Use spell-check. Use grammar check. Get a beta. (As prplchknz notes, spell-check doesn't catch everything.)

DIY has it exactly right with her James Bond example. Your readers can't connect with you if they can't understand what you're writing. Most people are understanding of typos. But if you don't want to bother with checking your spelling and grammar before you post something -- if you want to be a free spirit and just type away -- don't be surprised if you don't get a lot of feedback.

Remember, some people who might be otherwise be enjoying your fic might have vision problems. It's very difficult for anyone to read big blocks of text on a screen, much less someone with low vision. And not everyone is going to be able to print out your fic. What if they use a text reader -- how in the world would they be able to make it through all those spelling and grammar errors? What if your potential reader is not a native English speaker? How in the world are they going to be able to make it through your fic?

Now, here's where I come sit someplace else, perhaps next to Magdala. Being honest is a virtue. Being brutal is a vice. "Brutal" means animal-like, it means less than human. I'll be honest, but I hope never "brutally" so.

I know that it can crushing to post a fic and get nothing back but complaints about spelling and grammar. So if my feedback would have to be something like, "This fic needs a lot of work before I can even read it." -- I may not leave that feedback.

Because it goes back to time. I don't always have time to craft the gentle, helpful reply that I would want to leave. And I'm not going to leave something like, "For crying out loud, learn to spell!" That's hard to write tactfully in an email, much less on a public board.

I also prefer to suss out what kind of writer I'm responding to before I leave any serious concrit. Does this writer want to write a finely crafted, in-character story? And is this writer willing and able to put some serious time and thought into it? If not -- if a writer's going to say, "well, I don't want to check my spelling or do any revision because that would be too much like work" -- well, I'm not going to leave any feedback because we obviously have very different goals in mind.

And that's okay. As a reader, you can't expect every writer to cater to your tastes.

But if the feedback I would have to leave would have to be very sensitive, then I'm probably not going to leave it. That kind of crit is most tactfully done off-board. And if I don't know the writer and can't suss out how she's going to receive it, then I'm not going to write that email. If someone else can do that, then more power to them. But at this point, I simply don't have that kind of time.

I'd actually like to start a new topic on what's the best way to use a WIP. When I see a WIP, is it just a serial -- chapters of a long work presented in a more or less finished form? Or are we supposed to read it as a first draft? Because sometimes the latter just strikes me as asking for trouble.

I am aware of that. Sorry if I upset you.

Refugees, children in detention and SIEVX.

I do not know what point I raised but I know I did not ask for your credentials.

Curtesy! Practice what you preach. The word is courtesy.

I am really not interested in fanfiction or fandom outside of House. I am certainly not interested in James Bond fanfic as the James Bond productions were a reality for me when I worked at Pinewood Studios.

Yes now I do know where you are coming from.

I didn't actually say there was much difference. At least professional writers are paid.

Of course in professional writing you might be crushing a rich big tremulous writer.

As for the rest. I am aware of the size of the internet and I don't bother to read fiction I find offensive. Fact which I find offensive I deal with in my human rights work.

I don't care if you can't spell. I can't spell either but as long as the fics are readable and isn't like "HoUSe Is Da GrEaStEsT Lol." It makes me sea sick, and the lol asl type stuff don't belong in fics or any piece of writing unless theirs an im convo between characters . You can tell I don't proofread my posts but those are posts very different then a fic. As a fic you normally spend alot of time on while replies are thought up often in 30 seconds.

Mags wrote:

And I bet you are a fan of David Marr and that other writer who's name escapes me? What was that book - Dark Victory, or was that the other ship? So many ships, so many refugees throwing babies left right and asunder - who can remember nowadays when we are meant to be securely focussed on the fear of terrorism?

Although seeing him going head to head with Andrew Bolt on a Sunday is always a highlight of my week.

And can I take an educated pot shot that although you may have lived in Britain, judging by the Pinewood reference which places you around the Tim Dalton era, you now live in Australia or are at the very least very familar with our particular brand of human rights violations?

But interestingly enough I was talking to one poor guy today who was convinced because of the media hype he was about to be thrown out of the country because his girlfriend was making threats.

It wasn't my area so all I could do was recommend a good migration lawyer because he was too afraid to tell me anything, but by christ he was absolutely terrified. And I don't blame him.

But enough of of Australian politics...

You are absolutely right on that point prp: I hate typos - they are the bane of my life, but then again I new that. And sometimes they can be really funny. I bow (or should that be curtsey?) to their insidiousnessness. It may not be a propper word, but it sounds right and I'm running with it.

And that is why we have wonderful proof reading type people who do all that stuff. God bless their anal retentive heart of gold little cotton socks.


I think writing itself is a long and tortuous process. There are so many variables. You write something. You have no idea if anyone wants to read it - because it is not fashionable this year or just plain dribble.

That is why I think fan fiction is really sweet because it allowes the author just to play and have fun in a no pressure environment.

And I enjoy about 95 percent of the fiction I read, even including the ones where someone says I'll be with you in a minuet or some silly stuff like that (as prp says you will forgive ff writers a lot).

Most of the stuff written is just for fun and you have to take it with a grain of salt and run with it (I hate sports metaphors).

It is just fan fiction, not rocket science. If it was - the Earth would have blown up long ago.

And I agree with Audatrix too - the 'enjoying it thanks' thing works well.

WOW! This has got to be the absolutely BEST and most honest thread I've ever read in any forum anywhere! Magdala, you came down on me like stink-on-you-know what, and I could feel the old adreneline flowing within myself with every word I read. You sounded very angry to me, and I'm not sure I understand why that is. I wasn't angry when I wrote it; just stating an opinion. I found myself laughing at many of the points you made; not because I'm making fun of you, but because I related to the way you felt about them. Or, I should say, the way I USED to feel about them. I have found over the years that it is so silly to get pissed off about other peoples' opinions. Getting angry never changed anyone's opinions any more than yelling at a dog will make him stop licking himself (to quote someone we all know and love). I still don't care much for WIPs, and I don't put the blame on "spell-check" when it's me who has screwed up (and I firmly believe "spell-check" isn't worth the machinery it took to invent it!), and me who needs to take the blame. I love writing Dr. House, and it's okay if some folks don't care for my style. As I said before, I do it for my own amusement, not necessarily to please anyone else. If someone else happens to enjoy it, that's gravy! PurpleChicken, I'd read your stuff if you'd proof it! DIYSheep, you continue to thoroughly confuse me ... but in doing so, you make me think! I mean THINK! So confuse me some more. My (?) mind needs the exercise. Most of all, the rest of you please join into this reality-fest. Stop apologizing for having an opinion, and put it out there. It's time people stopped being politically correct, and got back to being honest. Oh yeah, and Mags? I LOVE "Legacies and Lollipops" ... but the typos drive me up the wall. (How's that for being patted on the head and kicked in the butt at the same time????) Let's argue some more! Bets

What is WIP all about? That’s an interesting point

I’m trying to sort my WIP into something that approaches a ‘finished’ piece at the moment -so this is my take.

I haven’t written anything ‘proper’ (in the sense of not just scribbled on the back of a fag packet) before and it’s a tough gig. I felt vaguely pleased that I’d managed to finish something until I started going back and sorting out some of the black holes. It’s a tough gig because I don’t usually finish anything and I’ve never looked back, at anything I’ve written, retrospectively. I’m guilty of posting my first draft minus a quick read through for obvious stuff ups.

It’s the way I have worked with anything, before now, straight from my head to pen or my two typing fingers (maybe I should learn to type properly). This is a pretty selfish attitude, as I realise, that this does not make for a happy reader. As soon as I started working with a beta it made me think a lot more about the stuff that really should have mattered, sentence constructs, grammar and coherent sense. My handle on grammar is pretty appalling and logical sentences aren’t my forte – I really should have given these things a lot more thought.

As for the posting of scrappy chapters- I’m totally guilty of that too- I have a vague idea, an end scene and no structure or discipline as to anything in between. So I thought it out and wrote without any forethought or planning. I had no idea how long it would take or when I could fit writing in around the rest of life/work/uni and all the other stuff. I had a couple of weeks off work and no study during the summer, so I started. I’m a lazy git and ill-disciplined (that’s why I’m still studying at twenty-six) and it took me way longer than I anticipated. I am not suggesting that my faults reflect anything about any other people writing WIP, it's just my own explaination.

The only defence I have is that I have no delusions as to it being even close to something that could be offered as finished. The other thing is that I would never have written any of it if I had not been able to write it in that way, it suited me and my scruffy approach. Would I do it differently if I write something else? I could be all loosehead and say ‘yes’ but past form suggests it would be highly unlikely. I’d also say reading WIP or finished stuff doesn’t bother me at all and I have a really high tolerance for spelling and grammatical errors (ignorance is bliss ) so I’m laidback about other people adopting the same approach. My fic faired better than the guitar I started sanding down to repaint two years ago, but I have realised that unlike that project if other people are reading then I have a duty to be more organised. It’s a really valid point and I see the perspective. I guess it comes down to a personal decision about whether you are prepared to read something incomplete and also whether you can accept, as a writer, that it may not be viewed seriously until complete. It’s also probably true that expectation plays a part ‘WIP’ could be viewed as a safe option and that expectation is less. If that gets more people enjoying writing, then it’s all good for me, but I understand that it is probably annoying for readers looking for more substantial offerings. I’m kind of repentant in the same way as I’m going to give up smoking, I like saying it but…

These are just my wandering thoughts but I figured I’d put the flipside of the coin, some of my favourite fics are WIP- so I thought I’d add my two pence and (well penny today and the rest tomorrow, can’t change that much

I'll drop my quick two cents in on the WIP thingy.

First, Benj. I couldn't agree more. Tuition is the same thing. I had a start and an ending. They could have just been two seperate shorter fic but I felt the need to stretch myself and try to connect them. It may have been a bad decision but it started the ball rolling and so there you have it. Unfortunately my inspiration and time available fluctuate and have conspired to grind it to a halt.

Also this fic was started very early in the life of the show and so much has come to light that my plan for getting from point A to point B just isn't feasable so until I find a solution it stands as is.

I understand where Betz is coming from and that's fine, I have no problems with that but if it weren't for being able to post it in chapters it would probably never have seen the light of day (Good thing or bad thing I don't know but there you have it.), I never would have connected with Taru, never would have ended up here and never have gotten to know all you fine folks. I vote it a good thing.

And although with Tuition, I felt what I put out in chapters, was to be a finished version of that chapter, I still consider it a WIP as it is not finished. I have tried to take the Dickens approach as I call it and write it in pieces that are almost able to stand on their own; but with a cliffhanger or at least leave you with a desire to read more. I like a good tease when I read and I wanted to see if I could accomplish that as a writer.

I also believe a WIP to be any piece that maybe an author is having trouble with or is unsure about and is seeking help. I do not have a beta that I work with regularly. I have used several but they all have busy lives and cannot always find the time to do that and I don't like to imposed. So sometimes I will post something like "Half Full" because I'm unsure of the feel and/or direction of the piece. I post it to see if readers are able to follow where I'm going. After all, I can, I wrote the bloody thing.

But as with "Half Full" I had questions as to the use of Wilson calling House Greg instead of House. When I wrote it I liked it, it flowed well and gave it a slashy hint that worked for what I was trying to accomplish. But I was worried that it may be enough of a distraction to a reader that they may not enjoy the piece or pick up on what I was trying to convey.

When I posted I specified that I was looking for a particular kind of feedback. Not drawing attention to it but stating that I wanted help. Benj left some very helpful feedback that really told me what I had suspected and in the ensuing conversation gave very valid reasons as to why. Thus it changed the piece, and I feel made if better for that change. I am still working on it because without that it is lacking that slashy hint I want in there.

Not only that but I tend to ramble when I write. I do a ton of editing and usually have 20 + drafts of any piece or chapter. "Half Full" was an exercise for me to go with a more streamlined style. Since I had never written that way, I wasn't sure if it worked. It seemed too bare bones and not enough meat. Would the reader understand what was going on. My instinct said "Hell no." so I needed to get a reader and feedback to see.

This is mostly what I used the WIP area for. Even with "The Tide of Time" I posted it in WIP because I wanted specific feedback. Not pats on the back but people to let me know if they got it or if there were continuity errors (there were some big ones that were caught that I may not have caught had I just put it up as a finished piece.)

That's is what I believe the WIP area to be. Maybe we should divide it into three seperate thread? A "Needs Help WIP", a "Serial WIP", and add a WIP to the Finished thread for those serial stories that are finished as far as the chapters go but are still on their way to a conclusion. Would that be better? Worse? Unnecessary(I can never remember how to spell that word damn it!)?

All in all this has turned into a better than expected thread. I never doubted you guys for a moment!

I have seen the "Too Busy" line of thought making a big appearence here and that is so understandable. From most of you that I know, I am amazed that you even have time to log on and post on the boards let alone have the time to read any of the fics! But Aud, you put it well in saying...

and...

I too like a detailed review but a simple "Nice job" will work too. I have done that when I wanted to give a more detailed review but hadn't had the time. I plan on eventually getting back and making that longer post but if not, at least I know I let the author know I read the story and appreciated it.

But I also see alot of "I won't read what I don't like" or "If it's just horrid I won't read it/leave feedback". I understand that and I expect that to happen even here. As much as I adore all our writers here I can see where some of the stuff may not be someone's cup of tea.

I also can see that what I enjoy, someone else may think is a complete bucket of swill. But I also see fics with over a hundred views and no feedback. I cannot believe that all of those readers were either too busy or that all of them thought it was rubbish.

Now that's not to say I haven't seen fics out there that had a large number of hits and are complete rubbish but, as an example, TelegramSam's fic "Messengers"

I think it's fantastic, and in fact I reread it when I posted it on the website and it is a current favorite. 151 views, 2 comments. Okay, pick up your stones and heave them at the hypocrite, but this is what I am perplexed by. I just can't believe that all 149 people either hated it or were too busy to type a "Nice job, thanks for posting". I may not be a literary critic but that fic is far from swill.

We are all individuals and all have our reasons for what we read or don't read and why. I understand most of them and this is a really enlightening thread. I would never have thought that a WIP would be bothersome to someone yet Betz has explained it in a way that I can see how it could be annoying to some folks.

I'm fairly tolerant of misspelling and grammatical errors and would email the author to suggest a beta, but I can see that as a major drawback in someone reading and leaving feedback. It is annoying, and as much as I can see Magdala's point about a writer letting it flow and the editor picking up the pieces so to speak. I also realize that unless it is specifically in the WIP area and a writer is asking for a beta or help this should be considered a finished, published (yes, I said published) work.

If you are going to post it as a finished piece, it should be finished! Don't put it out there with no proofreading. That is the writer's responsibility. Magdala, you wouldn't dream of publishing a piece before an editor or proofreader had a look at your work would you? I don't think this is any different. And I am guilty of that. Most of my stuff isn't betad but I do make a huge effort to proofread and spellcheck before putting it out there and if a beta is free I opt for sending it to them before I post it.

If the reader can't understand you then what's the point? This is not to say that you should trash that writer or the work but on the other side of the coin, if they are unwilling to do anything about it, the lack of feedback and readership will bear it out. But if that's what they want, that is what they'll get.

Some just don't know. I didn't know what a beta was when I first started writing fic. I was lucky enough (maybe not lucky for you all though ) that someone was kind enough to give that pointer and a few kind words and so I've continued to write and I think grow as a writer because of that. I like to spread the love and encourage those new writers since I know how much it meant to me.

I can see that not everyone is into that or feels the need to do that and that's also fine (not that you need my validation on any of this). But be aware that a gentle nudge and a kind word could make the difference. If they want to get hostile back or don't want to change then, again, there's nothing I can do but go on about my business and let them go their own way.

And to add to an already overly long post.

A note to the "writer's vision" subject. On chapters four and five of "Tuition", Aud did the beta work and reviewed the medical aspects of what I had written. I made many corrections based on her suggestions and I still thank her profusely for her help (Thanks Aud! ) but, we disagreed on a particular aspect. For me as the author, to change it, would change it to something I didn't want and I felt that as unlikely as it was, it was not unheard of and certainly not impossible. Aud felt that it was improbable enough to be distracting and unrealistic. She was probably right but I had a direction and future plotlines that needed it to remain as it was. We agreed to disagree on this point and here we are.

You could consider that a bad move on my part and so forth but I bring this up to point out that sometime things don't mesh and a writer may not take that advice. Will it affect your reading enjoyment, quite possibly but will it affect other readers enjoyment. Sometimes yes, sometimes no. Butthat hasn't stopped Aud from offering advice and helping other writers and myself when she can and I think that is important. Especially in a fandom where the fics have a potential to include some very precise medical proceedures and such.

To kind of draw this to a close. by using the above example, did that affect a readers enjoyment of my fic? I don't know. I never got any feedback as to "Well that would never happen" so I don't know. Did these people just click the back button and never come back? Or did no one notice or feel it important enough t odistract them or their enjoyment of the fic? Again, I don't know I never got feedback in either direction so I have to go with what I wrote.

The same with having anyone but Stacy calling House Greg. If Benj hadn't given me feedback I would have stuck with it and possibly pushed readers away. Without feedback like that it's hard to know why people read or don't read or like or dislike.

And like Aud said, you don't have to be brutally honest, just honest. At least here, if you are honest, I think most of the writers are receptive to that. Leaving honest feedback will not bring down the anger of the mods. As long as it's polite, constructive and not a personal attack on the author or the work you're safe.

I hope to have some guidelines up soon for the fics and the readers and writers. As Taru has said it's a bit nicer to send any criticism in an email or PM and post a "I PM'd you" in the thread as opposed to posting it on the boards but it's not a requirement. If it's criticism you feel would be helpful to other authors post away!

Anyhoo, went on too long again! Great stuff hear guys and lots to think about. Thank you all for responding and being honest without this turning into an ugly shouting match. There really is no other place on the web where I think we could do this and I thank you for that!

I'm starting a WIP thread to pick up on Benj's and rt's comments.

And rt, I wonder if having several different WIP threads would be too cumbersome? Maybe it would be better if an author just posted a short note at the beginning introducing the piece and saying something about where they are with the piece and what they're looking for.

DIYSheep. 146 children, 142 women and 65 men died in the tragedy of SIEVX. So I cannot share your levity. I have avoided politics on this board and suggest you do the same.

Betzz I am not angry just very disappointed by the lack of courtesy towards others.

Regarding my transgressions, as my work is clearly marked as FIRST DRAFT everyone should know what that means. I am afraid part of this comes from the residual aphasia I was left with after a stroke. I am aware this is no excuse but your attacks are, to quote Evelyn Waugh, "a blow upon a wound."

Oh Boy! Food for thought all over the place. Excellent. How diverse we all are ... and all with valid points. Benj and RTL, WOW ... you have given me a lot to chew up and swallow. Thank you! ;)Bets

Magdala, I can't speak for the others but I know I was not and have tried not to go into specific fics or writers here. I have used a few examples and I have tried to only use them in a good light. I may have missed it but I don't think anyone was attacking you or your work specifically.

If they were, shame on them, this isn't about attacks it's about discussing a mindset for not leaving feedback.

We seem to have hit on two threads that I had not previously run across in this detail. One is the "No time" one which I won't go into again here but the other, the "WIP and unfinished work as finsihed work" thread. (Well that was clear as mud )

Aud has started a discussion on the whole WIP thing and I believe your works have been posted in the WIP area. There does seem to be some confusion as to what exactly that WIP is and how it should be handled. This came as a complete shock to me and just goes t oshow that little misunderstanding can lead to big problems.

DIY and Betz were posting with the idea that they don't like WIP for several reason. One is the obvious lack of polished grammer and spelling. But if hey misunderstood what a WIP is then that contributes to the feeling that the writer is just being lazy and sloppy.

My feelings, if it's in the WIP area you should do some finish work but I don't expect it to be perfect. We are all human and make mistakes and as someone further up thread stated you should never beta your own work, it just doesn't work, or there is a good chance you'll miss things.

In other words, I don't agree with someone going in, opening a post and just typing out whatever comes to them and expecting everyone else to come in and do the work. It's obvious that this is not what you are doing Magdala and for anyone to suggest that is just silly.

On top of this you have stated several times that someone has offered to beta it and that this is something that is in the works. When the beta work is done I will be proud to post your work on the webpage!

In my mind this just accentuates our individuality. I write in a very different style than Magdala or Namaste or sy or Benj or Aud or... well you get the idea. I work hard to proofread my stuff because that's just how I was taught to do it. Plus I feel my writing in and of itself give people enough reason to laugh at me I don't need to add to it by having simple spelling errors and punctuation problems.

You, Magdala, were trained differently and therefore write differently. That's a good thing, hell that's a great thing for me. I like to see how others write. Look at their process, maybe find a little different approach that may help with writing in a different style.

To me, it's all good as a writer but I can see that as reader that can be a distraction. But that I think is springing from the misunderstanding of the WIP area more than an actual irritation from your work.

I'm not attacking DIY or Betz here either, you all have very valid points and I agree with some of it and understand your viewpoint on other part although I myself would not go that particular route. That's what makes us who we are and I wouldn't try to change that. It's your opinion and you're allowed to have it and express it. Plus you both seem to be open to what others are saying and that's what it's all about.

Some people are very confident in their skills and don't care what others think. Some are confident in their skills but do care what others think. Some aren't so confident in their skills and it takes a whole lot of courage for them to post.

All in all I think if just basic courtesy, not PC crap, but basic courtesy is applied when making any sort of comment about a fic that someone has spent their time working on and has been open enough to share, we'll all end up better off.

Even if the fic is a piece of crap and the writer thinks they're God' gift you either avoid leaving feedback of post honestly but temper it with courtesy.

Its the difference between "What a piece of crap, you should cut off your hands and never write another thing" and "I found that to be very implausible. It was hard to read because of numerous spelling and grammatical error as well as lack of punctuation. You may want to find a beta to help you with this. I think that would greatly improve your work and make a far more enjoyable experience for the reader."

You don't have to get in a war of words with them. If they give you a snotty reply, move on, it's obvious they feel they don't need help. But for those of us who desire that help it's a shame these people have put a damper on it for all of us. So here's my open invitation to a stoning (But I want to go to the stoning. Don't be silly, women aren't allowed at stonings! Not an exact quote but you'll know!) Have at it on my stuff, I can take it, believe me.

And Magdala, get over here and give me a smile You do very fine work and I hope you continue.