In the thread on Sin this topic came up. I know in churches I have gone to this is always a interesting subject.

Free will, is it a blessing? a curse? is it misused? What are your thoughts?

Personally, I think it's a blessing and a curse, because there are times in my life, I really don't want to be the one making the decision. :blink:

Hello!

I think that the concept of free will, first and foremost, is mind-blowing. Especially if you view it from a Christian's point of view. We are told that we have free will so that we may make decisions between right and wrong, who we worship, and ultimately, where we are going to end up for eternity. On the other hand, we know God to be in the past, present and future. We know that He knows the future which make free will a strange concept. Are we really free if God knows what we are going to do? Doesn't that mean He already mapped out the plans about what we're going to do anyway? It's written in the Bible that His ways are not our ways nor His thoughts our thoughts. Sometimes I wonder if God chooses to know the future of a choice. He has the ability to see into the future and know what we are going to do, but does He do it? Of course, who am I, a human, to even try to understand the way that God operates. If He wasn't an enigma, He wouldn't be God. If we could totally understand Him, there would be no reason to fear or question Him. If He was like us, there would be no reason to worship Him, pray to Him, trust Him. So, when it comes to free will for me, I think it's a "cold case". Something that has never been solved and may never be solved until we meet eternity ourselves. I think that free will poses infinite possibilities. But we know for certain that we humans live our lives daily based on choices. We choose what we eat. We choose how we dress. We choose to be kind to people, or rude to them. These are little choices next to the choice of do we love God or do we turn away from Him. Once again, how do we know it's free will....doesn't He already know who is going to choose Him and who isn't? The ball is in His court on that on....but I know that I trust Him, even if I don't understand His ways at times. Maybe free will concerning the earthly is different than the unearthly. Flesh versus spirit is also a complicated matter. But I know that I will know some day. And for now, I have chosen to follow Christ and my will is that His will be done in my life. :lol:
Blessings,
Yellow
*type*

I like this one! I think that Free will is absolutely AWESOME. It is a blessing. Without free will where would we be? We would be mindless little robots without the ability to choose anything of consequence. For a Christian it means (I am assuming, but we all know what that means :unsure: ) that they have excercised their FREE WILL to accept the gift of salvation by being baptised. I know that in other faiths there is also an act of accepting that faith's blessings as well. Without Free Will this would not be possible. To me that means that we would be on the order of alot of the animals on the planet. For example a dog. They can partake of the bounty of nature but they can't choose to give thanks for it and do not have the benefit of religion.

Yes there are down sides to free will. Like choosing to do the wrong thing. But that is part of the whole balancing the equation thing.

You will find I like to throw out a topic and let it get started before I comment.

I personally think it is both a blessing and a curse. For me it is a blessing because yes I have chosen to follow Christ. No matter what else I have chosen in my life this is one choice that will rule above the others. It shapes who I am.

Now I see it as a curse as well. I am not a novice in my walk, and I believe that I need to treat others with the same love and understanding that I have learned from my father God. Now that makes life interesting. Like with my children, I can tellthem why I know something is wrong, and now that they are adults, I have to let them go their own way. So I see them (and have before they reached that age) make big mistakes and can only wait until they come back to me and wish to talk about it. I have also dealt with some of my friends with this. I try to be honest and let them know why I know the path they are on is wrong, and I am here to talk to. I try not to make choices for my friends or my kids now. It is not always easy and I do alot of praying about it. God certainly has patience with all of us kids!

Okay let me give the best example I can think of here. I had a person that saw me as her sister. She was injured at work and got a prescription for oxycodine. With in a few months she had started to break her own toes, fingers and have teeth pulled to get he drugs. Before it got that bad her mother wholived with her got a couple of us together to help her. Now I was raised in a house where I went to alanon as a teenager, and I still keep to the 12 steps in my life. So I knew where it could be headed. She fough the whole time. In less then a year she had lost her job, her husbdna, all of her friends and was in jail for taking money and drugs from a NAA meeting. So there yes free will is a gift but it can end up a curse. We did try to get her help. However she had to want it.

It is hard to watch a person you care for make choices you know and have warned them will cause them harm. I think that is one of the worst things I have to endure!

From a Christian perspective, I don't see how free will is possible.

I don't believe that it makes any logical sense for God to "let us choose Him", if he is Omnipotent and Omniscient. Wouldn't that mean that he already knows? To allow us free will (in my mind) would be God admitting that he doesn't know what we are going to do and how we will do it.

It's one of those contradictions that doesn't make any sense to me.

I can see where it might be seen as a paradox. How can we have free will if God is omnipotent? That is a good point. I almost think that whether or not God is omnipotent really matters in this area. This is very hard for me to put in to words. If I meander around a bit I apologize. I think the important thing is that we do choose. Not so much what the choice is. We will say for the purpose of argument sake that God is omnipotent. He knows what we will do. That works for Him. But it has more meaning for us who aren't omnipotent to make the choice. It gives value. Possibly strengthening our resolve in what we choose.

Does that make sense? Hope so.

I think I will leave that there for now while I try to figure out the rest of what I was trying to say.

It does make sense up to a point.

While we are not God, nor could we know what God truly is until our passing, our *sense* of free will is important. I for one do not want to be God's meat puppet.

That all being said, if we go by Scripture, there is no possible way that we can *actually* have free will if everything about us was known before we even hit this earth.

Perhaps God wants us to think we have free will in order for our own personal, internal growth....but Scripturally speaking...free will does not (could not) exist.

Those of us going to Hell are already going to hell, and those of us going to heaven will already get there...no matter what choices we make in the present...since God already knows what we're going to do in the future.

Sort of disconcerting, really. Why even try?

In my belief system there is free will.

While I believe that the Gods are closer to a single, unknowable in its perfection, Divine Source...and they are all knowing....they do not direct the events of my life, as they have better things to do than really care all that much about a mortal such as myself.

Granted, they do intercede and are interested, but I am not a meat puppet.

What I choose or choose not to do either brings me into the light of the Gods, or it turns me away from them, and my life goes to the toilet.

That is true free will, in my opinion.

Now, perhaps this is how Christianity views free will...but that would go against Scripture...so I'm not sure.

First of all I respect your beliefs. I can see that you are a person of deep conviction.

My belief is that God, while omnipotent, does not necessarily concern Himself with whether or not I wear pink socks or green ones. He may KNOW what choice I will make but I don't feel that HE directs it.

Like you, Twinkle, I feel that the choices that I make will take me closer or keep me from God. It is the journey that means something to me. How I build my relationship with the "powers that be".

I am convinced that free will is alive and well in this exsistence of ours. Otherwise I am sure that people would be trying to combat the forces of evil. We choose to do this. To me that is Free will.

But thank you for giving me food for thought.

You've given me some, as well.

Hello, Friends!

I just read all of the posts on this thread and I loved them! Twinkle, thanks for the challenging thoughts on free will. You made some very valid and thought-provoking statements which are great in exercising everyone's faith and conviction. Lady Zandraa, I can see the direction in which your headed and that helps me to make a clearer argument for how I believe....I also found something that my MOST DEAR C.S. Lewis wrote a long time ago concerning a thought on free will: "God created things which had free will. That means creatures which can go either wrong or right. Some people think they can imagine a creature which was free but had no possibility of going wrong; I cannot. If a thing is free to be good it is also free to be bad. And free will is what has made evil possible. Why, then, did God give them free will? Because free will, though it makes evil possible, is also the only thing that makes possible any love or goodness or joy worth having”--Lewis.

With a little more thought, something occurred to me which should have before, but sometimes I write or speak without thinking a matter over entirely. Perhaps free will is still free will. There is the whole confusing thought about God already knows so how can it be? Lady Zandraa, you were right in saying that God is Omnipotent, He DOES know. But just because God can know the future doesn't mean that He will alter it. He won't change a decision that we make, but He can fix the decision later on after we've made it. Let's say I decide that I want to steal something. So I do. God doesn't alter or control that thought--I do. Later on, when remorse sets in, I can turn to God, repent, and He will show me the steps in fixing this problem, like returning the item or confessing to someone to make it right. That's just a little example of course, but you get what I mean. So, in essence, we HAVE free will, but we'll receive intervention when we seek it.
Does that make sense? I hope so. Sometimes, I think this forum would be easier if we all have video conferences. ^_^

Anyway, thanks for the great insight from everyone. I enjoyed reading the posts and look forward to reading more on this and other subjects.
Blessings,
Yellow
*type*

I am one who thinks free will is a good thing. I would not want to be a mindless woman who has no say so in her life.

God created us this way for the number one purpose of choosing to want a relationship with Him. The Angels must serve Him, they do His bidding.

But I also realize that our free will can get us into ALOT of trouble....I have gotten in more than my fair share of it. Thank God for His Grace and His Mercy or I would be toast!

I have seen people who just cannot seem to get it together, one bad choice after another and I just wanna sit em down and tell em, commone! Ever been there?

I am glad that I have my free will....For me it is a blessing...ONE of many!

This has turned out to be a very good thread. Thanks everyone!

I think this touches on some interesting points. I have been inolvoed with soem very open minded churches. One study group we touched on the idea of love spells or praying for God to make someone love you. Either way you look at the idea it is the same thought, to take someone's free will choice of freely loving. Love isn't really love until it is freely given to me. Take a puppy, nothing is quite as amazing as the devotion of a new puppy to somone that cares for it. I think that very point of free will to lve somone is part of the reason behind it. God could have made us love him, easy, but to allow us the choice, that is a totally different thing.

Now I still seeit as both a blessing and a curse. I have a very good example of this happeningin my life right now. Our very good friends wife's father went in for some tests at he beginning of the month. He was having trouble eating and keepign the food down. Sounded like a couple of simple tests. He came out of the hospital 4 days latter with stage four cancer. they thoguth lung cancer, ends up he was aplumber and it is mesthohemoma (not sure of the spelling, sorry) He has it all through his abdomin. One tumor is the size of a football and has gotten all through his intestines. They now have been to about 9 doctors.

I have been workig with hands on healing, Reiki, whatever you wish to call it, to me it is basically the same for many years. I tried to get them to force him to the doctor before because I just knew something wasn't right, but he has been stand offish since I met him. He tends to only let his grand daughter and his 2 daughters close to him. I accept that, again his free will. So in July we were over there every weekend, enjoying their company and just enjoying the friendship, playing horseshoes, swimming in their pool, playing card games, talking for hours, you name it we did it changin off who cooked dinner, jsut normal things. So for us to see this man suddenly so ill was amazing. As I write this he is in a New York city hospital dying. He took he news of the stage 4 and decieded it is time to go. He should have had weeks or even months, but in less then 3 weeks from hearing the news he is now without an IV, in a comma and one kidney has totally failed, the other is very close. No one has a guess even if he will regain consiousness. Wow, such a shock. So very fast.

I personally have talked to his daughter about healign many times. She gets really bad stress headaches, which through some prayer and hands on healing I have been able to help her with. I have been dreading the call I expected from her of "come heal my dad". I can't, I know this. How would I explain it to her? See for me healing is first off not of me, it comes from God. Secondly it is her dad's free will choice to go. I'm not saying it is or isn't his time. I am saying he has said he is ready to go, he gave up and gave in. That I think is his right, his free will choice. He believes he is set with God and ready to go home. I have no right to try to change that. As much as I care for her as a friend, I can not get past that.

That to me is another reason I can see it as a blessing (he is rerady to go, and doesn't have to suffer through operations, kemo, or anything) and a curse (his family isn't ready to let him go and in so much pain)

Oh LadyS that is so horrible!!

I cannot imagine how bad you feel,,how nice of you to do reiki with this man and his family,,perhaps the poor mans' pain is too unbearable to think straight and he simply doesn't want to live with all of it..:(

Reiki is such a simple thing as is all energy work I wish more people would you know get that.I am going to take a course in it when I am ready...please know that man his family as well as you are in my prayers..if you need to chat pm me or email me.
God Bless you for your kindness!
((((((((((((((((LadyS))))))))))))))))))))))

Free will is a hard topic to talk about when coming from a Christians perspective that many people have stated earlier. Because I believe that God is omnipotent "wish i could spell better", he knows all and sees all that is going to happen before it does. But there is the idea of free will, the ability to make decisions that either are for the better of our lives or for the worse. That being said I think we need to look at God as something different than what we sometimes see him as and compare him to a loving father. I know that is hard for some of us because we have had parents that were less than caring let alone loving but imagine God as a loving parent that wants to give us the very best in life. But what gets in the way is our free will. If God was to intervene in every thing that we do then we would be losing out on the experiences that sculpt us into the beings that we are. We would loose out on really learning what pain and hurt is, and only see the world through rose colored glasses. What sort of existance would that be, one that is controlled from start to finish every moment we get up to that time we go to bed. So how does God handle free will, like that of a loving father, sorry got distracted and time to get back on point. While a father has an idea what we may want for christmas he waits to buy it till he hears from us what that very gift should be. God is the same way, he knows what we need to do or how we need to handle a situation but waits to see if we ask him to get involved. If we ask he directs us in the direction we would go and gets involved. If we dont ask he just sits up there and waits, no matter the consiquences. It was our choice on what we were to do and how to do it. But that brings us to a very important choice that many of us being believers in Jesus Christ are faced with each and every day. If God knows who will be saved and who wont what is the point of presenting the gospel to those in question? Is it not all ready decided from the begining as to what will happen? But unfortaneately that brings us back to free will. If no one presents the gospel then they wont hear the story, so how can they make the decision in the first place. So that brings us to the next part of what some would say about free will. While being a devote christian I still have free will in how I live my life. If I want I can go out and do what ever comes into my mind, and act out every desire that I have. But for every action there is a positive or negative reaction. Good actions bring me in a closer walk with God, bad actions drive me farther away from God as well as bring on a form of punishement that every good parent would issue. See cause when I accepted Jesus Christ as my personal lord and savior, I surrendered over my life to let God have control. I believe that Paul put it best when he said he was a bondservant for Christ. A slave that sold himself into slavery to pay off a debt owed to some one else. As a believer I still make the choices, but I need to work with God to make those choices the way that he would want me to make them. The closer I walk with God the less and less my free will should become.

I would love to buy that...but a loving father doesn't flood the whole earth because he's disgusted with his children.

A loving Father doesn't make a man sacrifice his child and then pull him back at the last second.

A loving Father doesn't cover an innocent with boils and plague him with misfortune after misfortune because he's got a bet going on with Satan.

All we have to do is look at the Old Testament and we see an angry, vengeful, hateful God who would kill us just as soon as look at us.

Wasn't that why he sent Jesus? To show us the "kinder, gentler God?"

And even then...what happened? He sacrificed his own son...who even at his death feared that his God had forsaken him.

I'm not feeling the love.

I *am* sorry...but I don't believe that we can ignore the Old Testament because we prefer what's said in the New Testament better.

I realize that most feel that Jesus is loving, kind, compassionate. If he existed (and for the sake of this discussion I'm going with that), then he probably was a very good man...but his God? Not so nice.

I also realize that I will most likely get in trouble for posting this...so I'll sort of duck out of this conversation now.

It's part of my nature not to let something pass when there are important points that are being missed or entirely glossed over for whatever reason.

I have no desire to change anyone's mind about anything...but I couldn't let it go without comment.

Wow Twinkle....tell us how you really feel!

First I for one am not going to do anything to you for expressing your opinion. You hit on some thoughts that I know have stopped a couple of peope I know or knew in the past from going to Christ or the church.

I think that you missed some of the ideas on the whole living under the law and now under grace. The law of the old testement had serious consiquences, hence all the ways to attone. Under Grace Christ paid the price. That is a totally different way of doing things.

As a parent and a thougthful one at that, I am not so sure how to react to some of your thoughts there. There were laws inplace and the people were warned do not do (this or that). People being the good kids they are, did as they wanted to. Now for me as a parent who really loves my kids, when they crossed my wishes they knew it. A good parent must keep those laws and whatever consiquences you put down. You have to be consistant. Did God go overboard? He did things I personally wouldn't but that is all history. I am not God, and I am not privey to alhe does or the reasons behind it.

I don't think the point that was made in Christ's sacrafice was understood. God gave up his sonin the ultimate scarafice. True love is the greatest gift of all. That was the gift we all recieved. I suppose you could look at it as cruel, but to me one life for billions of others. Wow...

Maybe that is a case of the glass if either half empty or half ful. It depends on how the person wants to see it. As for Job, God knew his heart and knew no matter what he would not give in. Which he didn't. We were never told if we walk with God all of our troubles would be gone.

Now as a moderator I would like to say can we please keep this to free will, not bashing a whole religion. We have learned on other threads that many of us just disagree with each others beliefs.

I too could not let this go without comment.

After takign some more time to think on this, I would like to put ot for everyone's thoughts...

Jesus had his free will choice to drink of the cup or not. He did so in prayer, he asked God to take it away. Jesus chose to go forward then and there. He made that choice. Now to me the ultimate is it a blessing or a curse?

The Ultimate exercise of Free will for us mere mortals... To choose Freely what path we take to God or Gods or away from Him/Them with dignity. It is both sides of the coin and the razor sharp edge of a sword. There are consequences no matter what your path.

We have to choose carefully and wisely. And we have to respect the choices that others have made. We all bear the responsibility for our choices and the natural consequences that follow.

I'd have to say (and I am open for feedback) that Jesus didn't have much going for him in the way of Free Will.

His birth and purpose was foretold by John the Baptist. He was born of a Virgin, a huge celestial event occurred (supposedly) at his birth. I'm thinking Jesus didn't have the option to walk away. He was God made man. Just saying.

I would agree that every action has an equal reaction...whether that be positive or negative is up to the person who makes the choice. Whether we really have Free Will when it comes to making a choice, in my mind, is still up for grabs when it comes to the Christian perspective.

My only point would be that in any given situation God knows exactly what choice we will make with any scenario he puts before us. I don't know that we can expect that he'll be "hoping we make the right choice." I also don't know that I can picture a kindly God shaking his head with sadness, love and forgiveness when we make the wrong one. It seems to me he already knows that we're going to either do right, or do wrong.....and I feel like maybe I'm playing against a stacked deck.

Please believe me when I say that I would *love* to believe otherwise, and spent many years *trying* to believe what is being said here. Scripturally it isn't supported.

There's a difference between the Laws of the Old Testament, and the stories we read about what God does when he's pissed. If the Bible is core, then you know...you can't ignore it. I will say that this is dependant upon what kind of Christian you (the general you) are. If you're a fundamentalist, well then, I think you'd find yourself in a bit of a pickle.

If one believes that the Bible is Divinely inspired, and is an allegorical work, then you know...I could go with that.

Now I might be the one that gets the feed back here, But to me scripture only goes so far. I can read it and gather knowledge and help, but there are things in my life right now that it doesn't seem to cover. At those times, I personally turn to friends I know are solid intheir faith, some times the music others have passed on and alot of prayers for guidence. There are more books out on so many topics that help as well. The bible is a great soruce of help in most cases but sometimes it just doesn't seem to have the answer to the problem I am facing now.

I have spoken to many through out my journey that have felt as you do. Like giant chess peices God moves at is will. Many have felt used. In the ultimate game of Good and evil I have even heard Pastors say the war is won it is the individual battles yet to be fought. or "I have read the book we win". Is there free will in that, yes I think there is. every one of us has the free will choice to follow or not. Each choice we make do we go with what we know is right or not? Those choces are with us today. Do we lie to cover oursleves? Do we tell the truth no matter what? Do we claim more then we are due in an auto accident? When 10 minutes late for work do we make something up or tell the truth? When you child looks at you with those big trusting eyes and asks a question, do you tell them you are not sure of an answer, or so you make something up? each and every chice we make is ours to make. Each one may have grave or great ends, but each choice changes our paths. Hence some of the theories of alternate universes, where each major choice changes the time line. Fantasy or fiction? How would we really know that?

Well, if God knows us before we enter the womb, then I'd say he knows if we're going to follow or not.

If he does know that, and yet sent his son out to convert and show us that the only way to the kingdom of heaven is through him....then it would imply that God isn't holding all the cards when it comes to humanity...and that would imply that he is not Omniscient....which would explain why he killed humanity in the Great Flood...destroyed Sodom, etc, etc.

And that goes directly against everything we are taught as Christians.

Now...most of us just swallow everything we're taught without question, and so when people like me start tightening the screws, it's met with claims of religion bashing, intolerance, close mindedness, or my personal favorite..."you're looking for Jesus".

I am honestly not doing anything of the sort....

But...I do believe that Scripture doesn't cover everything, and sometimes, looking to God when something absolutely traumatic happens to you is not only difficult, but darn near impossible...since the belief would be that he arranged it to happen that way. "God works in mysterious ways" doesn't cut it for me, and I would have to say that sometimes these questions and contradictions can be faith shattering.

I have no wish to shatter anyone's faith...but in my studies, that is exactly what happened. Faith in something untrue doesn't suddenly make it true...no matter *how much* you want to believe it. And for me...I cannot go back...I feel like I know too much now to do so and be "a believer".

I know others that have gone back, because they have been touched by God in such a way that there is no denying him, despite all they have learned and studied...and I admire those that can put aside their intellect in favor of their gnosis. I cannot.

Peace.

Twinkle.

Greeting everyone,

Twinkle, please allow me to maybe attempt to put some things into perspective for you. I would encourage you to take another "harder" look at the Holy Bible. You will begin to see a very loving Father, even in the Old Testment.

In the book of Genesis, after God our Father had created the world, He declaired that it was "good". Sin was not God, but a "choice" made by people, Adam & Eve. God being all powerful, in creating the world, God gave us "Free Will" and if He gave no posibility of sin.....it would be a self-contradiction. This opens doors to choice, evil over God, with suffering being one result. I firmly believe that every tear is Gods tear, remember He is our Father.The presence of suffering in no way points to an absent, or un- caring God/Father. God is hidden-you must make an effort of "faith" to find Him. There are many clues you can follow. If you had absolute proof of God, instead of clues, then you could no more deny God than you could deny a tree, rock, or the sun......thus you have no "Free Will" to make a choice for yourself. I can tell you from experience that LOVE is stronger then even death, but it must involve a choice, "Free Will". Our love for each other in this world is our choice to make, or we can pick the suffering side of life. God our Father does Love us. The Bible tells us to seek and you shall find-" You will seek me and find me when you seek me with all your heart." It doesn't say "everyone" will find Him. Keep loving and begin to follow the clues he has left for us.

Take Care and BE SAFE!

I have to say I agree,,,I too have heard the "God works in mysterious ways"..when all else fails blame god,,I think when people undergo terrible trauma god is hard to find,impossible even,and when people get in the way with their own thoughts and beliefs it makes god unattractive if you will...some are well meaning some are not,,,,love is it,as Lawdawg stated,it begins and ends with love....the easiest but the most difficult thing to obtain..love.

I do believe in Jesus but not like I used to,,I do love many parts of my former Catholic faith but not the same,,people got in my way...now sitting back and meditating,,thinking trying to understand,, I can understand its about god coming to me,,just to me not through anyone or anything but to me..love.not words love,, actions..show me the money...anyway,,just my 50 cents as usual since I can't stop at 2..lol :P

Hello,

I beg to differ. God is always there, in your grief, sorrow, anger etc...you have "choosen" not to see Him(which is a small victory for the evil-one). The Psalms contain all the cries/shouts to the Lord, both joyous and sad, sorrowful cries. I believe most people have no understanding of what the Bible really contains; because unless you study it and read it, how would you know. Time heals a broken heart, God can sooth the pain. He won't take the crisis away, but He can ease the sting. God can and will make good out of the bad.......but you must "choose"-"Free Will" to stay on the side of God

God must work in mysterious ways, or He takes your "choice" of "Free Will" away. There are plenty of books out covering suffering and a belief in God......."Making sense out of Suffering" is just one.

Like any good relationship, you must put forth an effort-"faith". Communication is a key element in all good friendships, relationships. So, how do you get to know God, through prayer.......communicating with Him. Open your heart and mind and invite Him back into your life. Seek Him with all your heart and you will find Him. -You really have nothing to loose.

Take Care and BE SAFE all!

St. Anselm of Canterbury: "For I do not seek to understand that I may believe, but I believe in order to understand."

With all due respect....(really)

I find that kind of thinking rather magical, and not based on reason.

What kind of a masochist would create something horrible to happen to you, and then sit with you in your grief?

Surely this is not your loving God?

If so, how do you reason it to be true?

Why on earth would I have faith in someone who tears me down, hurts me, hurts the ones I love, and does it on purpose? And then the only Free Will I have is "to believe" that he loves me?

I call that abuse, not love....and if any mortal man did that to say...his wife, we all would be telling her to run, not walk.

Why is it different because it's God?

Hi,

I would like to comment also on this interesting thread. I find that when we have trouble understanding something about God it is usually because we use our very limited understanding to try and figure out God and His ways. When we can't do that, instead we may judge God to be "unfair" or "loveless" or just too "mysterious" to understand.

Actually I don't believe the Lord's ways are mysterious to Him at all but they are mysterious to us because we don't know Him well enough or comprehend and trust His word fully. It is good to read Job Chapter 38-42 and remind ourselves just how majestic God is and how he has everything in control even when it doesn't "appear" that way to us.

How can we question a God who has spoken the entire universe into existence? As He said to Job, "Where were you when I laid the foundations of the world?" Meaning, "Job, you were not around when I made this Earth and I did okay without your guidance and wisdom." Job of course later silenced himself and repented in tears and ashes as he came to realize how foolish it is to question the power, wisdom and authority of Almighty God.

On the other hand, God is caring enough to allow us free will to question Him.
"CHOOSE you this day whom you will serve. As for me and my house, we shall serve the Lord!". - Joshua 24:15

I thought long and hard about free will and I believe the Lord showed me that
there cannot be true LOVE without free will. This is a very important concept as God is building a Kingdom and inhabiting it with people who have CHOSEN to love and serve Him. He wants to be surrounded by people who truly desire to be with Him and to love Him.

The Scriptures teach us, "You don't like the concept of loving God above all else and would rather serve yourself and your desires? Okay then you will get what you desire." That is the essence of love I feel. In the end we will get what we really wanted in our heart of hearts.

Would you like it if you had to force your children to love and respect you? No, this wouldn't be true love and that is exactly what Satan is all about. He doesn't care at all about violating our will and in fact tries to do that constantly. Satan enslaves by force and deception. God recruits by LOVE and TRUTH.

In Hsi love, Ed

I would agree with you that we cannot understand Divine perfection because as mortals we are not capable of understanding that. I get the whole "leaving it up to God" thing, as that's all we can do in our limited understanding.

It still doesn't answer the question as *how* we can have Free Will if God is All Knowing.

It's a direct contradiction. If we leave it all up to God, then we have no Free Will to choose anything. We are assuming, by knowing that we are mortal, that God has it well under control.

If we have Free Will to believe and follow, then God doesn't know as much as we think he does.

How does that work, exactly?

And ya know....God struck down Sodom, and drowned the world...and if that "Didn't put the fear of God" in people, I'd have to say that you are completely mistaken.

Fear is a powerful tool...and I'm sorry, but there is no way you can tell me that the people in the Old Testament did not fear the Wrath of God...covenant or not.

Im not sure how to word this so I hope it makes sense. I dont see it as God using fear to scare people These were people that did anything they pleased without regard for anyone else and they did very bad things. I dont think it has anything to do with scaring people. I would think he destroyed sodom because the people had no morals or concionus about the things they did and the city was full of so much sin. The flood washed away the worlds sin. He also killed the people that had been with the demons so they couldnt keep breeding and spreading.

OK. But I thought God was love?

God apparently didn't love sinners?

As far as Free Will goes, let me explain a simple scenario.

Let's say it is Twinkle's birthday. Your friends and family decide that since your such a great person they want to throw a "suprise birthday party" for you. They send out all the invitations for the party ahead of time, they prepare the room to be filled with guests and tables of food, and have everything for the party in place.

Then you best friend who planned all of this goes to your home and picks you up and declares to you, "I want to take you out for dinner tonight for your birthday. It is my treat. We can go anywhere you like. Where would you like to go?

You decide you are in the mood for pizza so you say, " I want to go to Joe's
Pizzeria as I just love their pizza and they are so friendly there!" So your friend drives you down to Joe's Pizzeria and you walk in the front door and "SURPRISE!" You are shocked and full of joy when you see all your friends and family there that had been waiting just for you to arrive!

Your friend gave you FREE WILL to choose to go to whatever restaurant you desired yet God had told her ahead of time that you would pick "Joe's Pizzeria" so she had everything ready for you when you got there. The fact that she knew what you would choose did not affect your free will choice. You still had the power to choose any restaurant you desired.

You see, our Father in heaven knows those who will choose Him and who will reject Him. He knows all things and can see our whole lifetime before Him. He prepares a place for those who will choose to lay down their life in this world to gain eternal life with Him.

Of course the illustration has it's flaws but the main point is that by God knowing what we will choose doesn't affect our ability to choose!

The Bible says, "we love Him because He first loved us" and "no one comes to the Father unless He draws him" so it is actually God initiating the choice by giving us the ability to choose Him through His grace, but that doesn't affect our free will. We still choose whom we will serve.

The bible teaches that there are really only two masters, two families in this world. God, and His children and Satan and his children. We must choose whom we will serve and love. By proxy, if we reject God and His Son the Lord Jesus, then we by default are left in the other family of this world to serve are own desires. This is my opinion of what I believe the Bible clearly teaches.

I hope this helps.

In His love, Ed

Hmm...I agree that it didn't effect our ability to choose...but is that an example of Free Will, or choice made by Divine Influence?

I mean, if we look at the definition of Free Will, it wouldn't seem that choice is necessarily a synonym for Free Will.

free will
n.
1. The ability or discretion to choose; free choice: chose to remain behind of my own free will.
2. The power of making free choices that are unconstrained by external circumstances or by an agency such as fate or divine will.

BTW....

I'm very grateful to you for this discussion. You've got me thinking, and I'm not out to prove you wrong...I'm just trying to understand. I know I have a strong personality, and my tone can sometimes come across as condescending and attacking, even thought that is (not always) my intent.

Twinkle, I do hope this shows youare staying!

In my humble opinion, I believe that the whole salvation plan of God under Christ is so simple we today tend to over think it all. Faith itself can be a simple thing, just believe.

I have a story on this. I have been blessd from an early age. I have so may amazing things happen to me. In my teen age years, I pretty much did the Jonas thing. I figured okay am an adult now I an make my own way now.

So I went into the Navy, I worked very hard to be the best I could be. We had assignments do be in charge of different things. Safely tucked into boot camp, I got 2 brightwork (anything that can shine had to all the time) and religious, I had to go to church twice a week. Not my choice but I did coose to do my best at what I was assigned.

So when I got out I decided I had had enough of that and did My own thing. I picked my own friends, didn't pray once over it. Over time and over the years, I figured out, who ever I picked ended up being a person of faith. On person I know sees that as being a chess peice. I don't, I see it more that faith sees and knows faith. Generally when I was looking for a friend,I found them by being one first. But each time I was choosing who to talk to and get to know, it could be weeks or months before I knew of their faith. As I grew stronger in my faith, the people I got to know began to have other faiths. Yet we could find common ground. Still I was not looking based on faith. It seemed to me the harder I tried to walk my own way the more people I found doing the same thing and as a group we would end up stronger for the trip.

I think each choice leads to more choices and different paths. How many people hveyou met tht come from different backgrounds but they end up working side by side with you for a common goal? Their choice to be there was theirs to make as was yours, but still a choice.

I agree about it all being about choice. Somebody much smarter than me once said that you can choose to do something or you can choose to do nothing but either way you have made a choice. I believe it was Mark Twain.

The other thing I have noticed when choosing friends is that people come and go in a person's life. Some friends we choose are with us for the long haul. Some are only with us for a brief time. But as they come and go we have the opprotunity to choose to interact with them or not.

I think that the same could be said anytime someone contacts someone for help with a spiritual situation. Or haunting or nasty infestation. The people who seek out the help come into the life of the one who is best able to help. Is that Divine Influence? I don't know. I do believe we exercise our free will in choosing to help.

Sorry guys I am really into believing that we have Free Will and that by our actions we are subject to natural consequences for our choices. To me it is pretty universal.

I think it is definitely free will as in that example you make a free will choice and have no idea that God is even involved in it.

When I first got saved 20 years ago it was a real life changing experience! I really did not understand what happened to me but all I knew was that God was real and somehow He had grabbed a hold of my life when I cried out to Him.

It was my choice and He was waiting for me to make that choice. Did He influence me? I would think definitely YES! As a parent I allow my kids to make choices yet I want them to make good choices so I influence them to try and choose wisely or they will suffer the consequences of making a wrong choice.

God says He desires NONE to perish. This is LOVE! But He knows many will perish and ignore His invitation He has sent out through His Son Jesus.

Thanks for sharing! - Ed

I love your story. Honestly, I do.

For me, though...blind faith without reason is something I can't do.

IMHO Christianity requires that you believe first, and then sort of ignore all the stuff that doesn't make sense, or even contradicts. I suppose that works for a lot of people.

I was like that for many years, and something never felt right to me. As a Christian, I asked the questions and was told to stop asking, just believe. Well, with my personality, I wanted answers.

I studied the history of Christianity and the Bible. I studied some forms of Paganism and found them to be just as questionable. I studied the Ancient Greek Religion, their theology and cosmology, and lo and behold, it made *sense*. I dug further, reading the philosophers, and darned if Christian theology didn't heavily borrow from Neoplatanism, even Aristotle.

I went deeper, and found that Virtue ethics were in place long before Christianity, and the Delphic Maxims were a much longer version of the 10 Commandments. The Rituals were eerily similar to the Catholic Mass.

The religion had the best of Christianity, minus the whole rules and going to Hell thing.

I could believe in this religion is because I could reason it to be true.

I don't know that it matters much to me that I am not Monotheistic. I still am a good person. I still strive to be the best that I can be. I strive to hold a mirror up to myself and see myself with all my flaws and my vice, and I struggle to be rational, reasoned, pious.

In the end, I am not so different from some of the people participating on this Board.

I believe in spiritual warfare. I believe horrible stuff exists, and it needs to be gotten rid of.

I suppose I still ask the questions because I'd love to see someone actually have the answers when it comes to Christianity. In the end it always comes down to, "just believe".

I suppose on some level I really wish that I could. I grieved at the loss of my Jesus. I grieved leaving a religion that I had loved so much, identified myself with, and had practiced up until I was 18 years old. I was a very good Catholic girl. It was not an easy decision to walk away.

In any event, I'm not going to poke people with sticks, but I will ask a question of two.

Here's the thing:

If one cannot reason why they believe what they believe, and an irritant such as myself can make some froth at the mouth....what would a demon who attacks through the intellect do? Faith may be enough, but sometimes it isn't when the lingering questions are sitting in someone's mind.

Oye,,it is hard for me to discuss this because everyone is sincere and I don't want to offend.

I think God is God and no one can put God in a box...I encountered "Christian" people in my life who had the audacity to open a Bible and tell me I was going to hell..why? because god gave them permission to judge???

Did God say "hey your a believer so now you can act on my behalf and judge"..thus becoming God?.?
No....they took the lords name in vain and used the Bible as they chose..if you want to use your own name to judge with, fine but taking gods name and using it to judge that's pretty audacious.

Jesus said "don't judge" he told the woman who was being stoned "no one here judges you and neither do I"... (sorry for the paraphrasing),,and that was it.

If Jesus hung around with sinners and tax collectors and God forbid,Lawyers even ;) JK,, who are we to judge?, who are we to try and drag people into a religion WE think is right, but they do not?,,isn't it enough to love anymore? is love not a part of Jesus life and teaching? ?
Isn't it about being good and treating others with charity and kindness.."faith without works is dead"..

My very limited knowledge of the bible or maybe saying my "basic knowledge" is kinder to myself, is totally different then others,,,IMO he accepted everyone as they were/are and that was it,,, has he said.."I love you but ONLY if you do this that and talk like, this kneel at certain times" and of course read the KJV Bible because "if its good enough for Paul its good enough for me"..which someone said to me once. :rolleyes:

IMHO He put no stipulations on his love not one..I recall him saying, "love one another as I have loved you",,,UNCONDITIONALLY..sorry for caps...but I am sincere and passionate about this.


People block God from others..people make God what they want that's why there are so many Christian faiths no one agrees because they have made it up as they go along,,is it right? For them it is right..for others no....people need to feel right...understandably.

That's it!!! And when we do ask questions we are unsaved,,demonic or outright heathen,,,,no one wants to be wrong,,no one,,I certainly don't..especially about faith...many people also feel the need to be led,,and some people need to control they want attendance at their Churches they want the tithing, so they can live,,they want the upper hand otherwise people might think for themselves and oh my that would be bad.,,there goes their control.

I was horribly hurt by the Church and by Christians (self proclaimed) and it pushed me away from god for a long time..now I see him (a term) in a whole different way...did the Church or those people ever say they were sorry?
Of course not, they are never wrong,,they always have to be right.

My feelings my pain mattered to them in no way shape or form,,like the RCC moving Priests who abused children away,God forbid they take responsibility,,had they taken it when it first happened in all those cases it could have stopped so many more for their whole lives being ruined...now they pay,,but only when they have to....UGH...

Of course it is similar they got the faith from all the other (original sources) Constantine being a saint btw.. was pagan..they forced him to convert on his deathbed to make it seem like it was a grand conversion,,not so....they changed things as they went along,granted there was changes made in writings about that too,,not the whole Church's fault but the individuals who were corrupt and power hungry because there were and are many wonderful Christians,,some are here on this forum.

History has a lot to say,,that's why books are 'banned' by the Church..no free thinking ( a form of free will) allowed?

No they don't want us to know anything other then what they teach its control,,there is no free will in this ,,,not at all, in fact the opposite,,but using gods name to say "gee Christine you were horribly abused because god works in mysterious ways" hurts me more then anything,,,it drives me further from god and makes me afraid of him....guilty and scared,what mysterious way??? that I was being abused prayed and he said no? Was there no faith on my part?
I have posed these hypothetically because there are some things that have no answers.

To me there IS free will, god may or may not know what we are going to do what matters is we choose to be good and kind and love,,help homeless,sit with the dying,,hug a person,,donate money or food to a food bank,,this are fruits from the tree and if its good its not evil its good..choosing what we do and say is free,,,doing this in Churches or some circles of believers may not be allowed.,,these are my thoughts...lol too many of them...but it is a n important subject to me.....

Thank you.

Yep...Jesus hung with the dregs of society...the lepers, the prostitutes...and even the lawyers. LOL.

I'm not so sure he was envangelizing to them, either...I suspect they were more fun to hang out with than the Jewish scholars portrayed in the NT. LOL

At some point I think it's more important to be who you are and show who you are *as a person*.

I am guilty sometimes of making sweeping judgements...at the same time I do believe that you are the company you keep.

So you know...it gets a little sticky.

Anyone can claim to be anything...but it's your actions that show you as you really are.

Hypocrisy in any form is disgusting. I appreciate honesty, and there are some that will tell you...yep, I'm a hypocrite. And believe it or not, that I can live with.

It's the obvious hypocrites that hide behind their religion to justify their own vice that I will go after...and I will lock on like a pit bull on a bone. And in all honesty, it's not just limited to the Christians. There are just as many Pagan hypocrites.