Outcrossing to other Ratters

I understand the idea of outcrossing to other breeds to get desireable traits but it's kind of a fantasy thing or at least completely hypothetical.

Wouldn't it be better to kind of do exactly what Milton did in the first place? Find dogs that are already out there with no health issues and with the proper confirmation and prey instincts as well as the temperment.

My wifes dog is a little fireball with everything that you could possibly want or look for in a Rat Terrier. Earset, prey drive, perfect family pet etc.

The problem with her is that she only ways about 10 lbs.

I'll tell you though, if this dog was a bit bigger? Wow!

I'm not a serious breeder as alot of you folks are so I'll just stand by and see what you folks have to say on the subject.

Figured we needed a new topic to get through the rest of the week you know.

It has been done, and done a lot, but usually to give standard rats more muscle, bone, and that decker look. Not done for hunt ability reasons, to my knowledge. I'd exclude a 10 lb. dog based on size alone. Mr. Big's dam was 18 lbs., but I'm assuming had some other desirable qualities and some larger dog genetics behind her.

Yes, it has been done alot, and as Jack stated usually to improve the standard rat terrier... I have however made a couple of outcrosses for the purpose of hunting and only one has shown any promise, and as luck would have it, it was the one cross that couldn't be registered due to color Oh well, would rather have a hunting dog with no registration, than a registered dog that won't hunt...

I am however using two dogs in my breeding program that go back to my same line, but had alot of outcrossing done to get the current dogs... and are great hunting dogs... i'm refering to Fern Hill's Creedence and Fern Hill's Lil bit of Spice....

Unfortunately, the hunting rat terriers that were available back when Milton was breeding, are far and fewer between now....

Clyde

We have a 11 1/2 inch tall girl that took off after a deer into the El Dorado National Forrest and did not come back for two days. You can't count the little ones out. She is a gopher killing machine too.


Jeff

Um, sorry Jeff, not coming back for two days is a definate fault. I want mine back in two minutes.

Good to see this topic updated, because now Milton IS doing exactly what he did in the first place. He took a Smooth Fox/unknown terrier cross (Henry) and crossed in a different breed, or two.

She was trying to run the sucker down like our big dogs do. She ended up in another canyon. We are happy the local mountain lion did not get her. Our show dogs can and do go from hunting to the show ring and win.

The best hunting terrier I have had so far, was a 14 inch - 16 lb female Rat Terrier female. I have never seen a dog as tenacious as she was... She had a heck of a good nose for a terrier, and she would bark up a tree until her tongue turned blue! She would go to the ends of the earth to find a critter to chase. She did not know she was little, I KNOW that she truly believed in her heart, that she was 10 feet tall and bullet proof... She was as tenacious and gritty as they come, and had as much heart and determination as ANY dog I have seen. There was not one ounce of quit in that little body. She had every quality that I love in a dog... She was an exceptional hunter, and when we came home she was a great family pet and companion, and a great little snuggler. Extremely good temperament on that girl... Anyway, the only thing I did not like about her was, she was too small. IF she would have been 25-30 lbs... WOW!!!

I would have crossed her on my Deckers in a heartbeat. I don't think size is that hard to fix, compared to other things.

Hi Rob,

I know what you are saying about crossing in rat terriers, and I agree, to an extent. See, the rat terrier and feist were almost interchangable not that long ago, then, the rat terrier went the way of the show dog, while the feist stayed a hunting breed. In fact, all rat terriers are a feist, but not all feists are rat terriers. Some feists are much different than a rat terrier or a Decker, and many of them are very similar. There are many feists out there that wouldn't be able to be picked out of a line up of rat terriers. Now, I am in no way saying that show dogs can't hunt. Danielle shows her dogs, and I have seen the videos, and boy, they can hunt! If given the opportunity, and I were looking for an outcross, I wouldn't pick a feist over a rat terrier, or vise versa, I would pick the dog that most looked like what I was trying to produce, had the best temperament, the best hunt, the best conformation, and so on... Whether or not it was a feist or a rat terrier would be less important than the dog itself. I have a standard rat at my house, bred for squirrel hunting. Will she be bred in, I don't know? Dad has a feist at his house, bred for treeing, will she be bred in? I do not know, nor do I know if the feist at Clyde's house will either, but they are all possibilities. The outstanding female Danielle was describing would have probably added a ton to the future of the breed given the chance. If she were a feist, it wouldn't have made any difference at all. So, yes, breeding in rat terriers for outcross is a great idea, but not if there is a better feist in the next room. Does this make any sense? So, over the years, there will be a need to outcross from time to time, and I venture to guess, there will be both feist and rat terriers used.

Ellis Decker

That's a good explanation of what you are breeding for Ellis. Sounds very reasonable but of course won't change the thinking of some folks, especially those not interested in hunting. There's lots of hunt left in lots of Rat Terriers, I think, but if you want tree dogs the pickings may be pretty slim at this point...and there are lots of fiests bred for this as the top priority,

Size can certainly be controlled DOWNWARD with available bloodlines. I'm just wondering how we are going to get it UP. Where can I get a prick eared tri colored hunk of a hunter to breed in?

I'm not sure what you mean? The Deckers have plenty of size already, I think... Does more size really need to be added in? I can think of SEVERAL Deckers out there that are 17-19 inches tall... Which to me is PLENTY big. I personally prefer a dog that is 16 inches, or very close to that.

In reading about inbreeding and linebreeding, one of the things that begins to happen is size begins to go down. Size can also be added pretty easily through choosing for it when picking a pup from a litter. Sugar is 27 lbs and Taz is 33 lbs. One of their pups is right at 40 lbs.

I know it is personal preferance, but I like em leggy. Taz is 18 inches at the shoulders, and I don't think he is too leggy at all.

Ellis

Jack,
I just had a litter of 4 puppies that would give you all that except the erect ears... mother is 40 pounds and the sire is over 40 (havn't weighed him) too big in my opinion, but neither dog shows any signs of their size compromising their agility... this was an accidental breeding, I thought Faith was out of heat.... guess I was wrong

It is a mother/son cross linebred on the Key's line of rat terriers... two puppies will be staying here and will be used in my outcross program with Tank, if he turns out to show he has something to offer...

Either way, they will be dogs that will bring size back up if ever needed... just looking ahead...

Clyde

yes, too big could compromize agility. I'd like to have seen Mexican Gambler or Fire Mountain Tonka in action before making a judgement on whether 50 plus pounders are too big tho. I'm guessing Mexican still had that snap, even if he wasn't able to snap away from that truck that ran him over. If you are getting consistent and agile 40 pounders out of those Keys crosses Clyde, they sound promising. My dog Rene, sired by a true 100% decker, is only 19 lbs. but of excellent proportions and confirmation. I did get some 35 lb. males and 30 lb. females from her and Slickrock tho.

I bred to Patches. he's 40 lbs plus but probably about 38 if he was in shape. Tonka had the legs to go with his weight but it didn't make it thru to Patches. Patches daughter Carrie has the heft but is a bit short on leg. Bobcat has the leg, but is a bit short on heft. Carrie doesn't quite have the speed of Bobcat and their mom Kimi. I'd cross those two but don't want to cross siblings. The fact that they are sisters removes the temptation...

Consistent size is not a sure thing, that I have found in my past breeding's of rat terriers and/or decker terriers.
In my last litter with Drifter (23 lbs., 16", and 37%) and Pebbles (26 lbs., 17", and 40%), there were seven dogs that ended up weighing 18 lbs to 50 lbs., all from the same litter. The male from that litter that was 50 lbs. was Buddy. He was very heavy boned and very muscular, with no fat. He had very good proportions, about 20" at the shoulders and body length that fit him well. His personality was very laid back and mellow. His agility was a little slower because of his size, as the smaller dogs could out maneuver him in play wrestling. He was way too large for curling up on your lap on the couch, which he loved to do.

My litter from Moose (27 lbs., 16", and 50%) and Chica (23 lbs., 16", and 95%???) produced three males, Comet at 19 lbs., 15", Rambo at 24 lbs., 16", and Ridge at 30 lbs., 18". Chica is out of Mexican Gambler (50 lbs., 18") and Missie Lou (35 lbs.). Moose's dam Suzy was only about 18 lbs. Assuming Mexican Gambler's sire is Angus, and not Grit, Mexican inherited Angus's 50 lb weight, and Chica is half their size at 23 lbs.

I guess my point here about sizes is: YES....50 lbs is to big unless you want to hunt hogs or bigger game. I definitely prefer the 23-35 lb. dog for being able to do it all. From being able to be a strong hunter and a comfortable in the car/truck/house/couch companion size. When I went to visit and see Brick, he had more of a body build type of a Boxer. He looked very powerful, and intimidating. Buddy on the other hand, was more refined and well proportioned.

When I had Bullet here for two weeks, his 30 lb body and build were really quite perfect, heavy muscles and large boned. Ridge is the same weight and height, but he is a little slimmer I think because he has a little longer body.

I think that Ridge and Rambo, both would be able to add some very diversified outcross genetics to the Decker gene pool. They are only three generations away from Deckers Mr. Big, Deckers Lila, Simon's Tonto (who was out of Pharoah and Lucy), Deckers Towser, Deckers Shortcake, and Deckers Sambo.
Moose is only three generations away from Deckers Muggins, Deckers Marcella, Sycamore Flats Tuffy, and Sycamore Flats Lacey.

Have a great day,

Clint

Sizes are definately still quite variable at this point. They should eventually settle out. I'd just like to see that average be a few pounds bigger than what I think it is now. Getting there is problematic, as the most compatible outcross material, be it Rat Terrier or Fiest, generally runs less than 30 lbs. Sze is only one thing to consider of course, and we are all never going to agree anyway. Other factors aside, I just like the big ones, Slickrock is just one impressive animal in many ways. In North Carolina, there are many areas where hog or bear can be encountered. It would also help to differentiate the decker from other breeds. Why carry a 20 gauge when a 12 gauge would do...