German short hair pointer mix or Decker Rat ?, German Short hair pointer or Decker Rat.

Hi Everybody, here is the back-story: I volunteer for various rescue groups in NYC, and I am also a foster mom. After losing my last foster who I later adopted (he passed away after 5mo's together) ... I was devastated and grief stricken. He was my perfect little dog. So in short... I signed up again to volunteer and save another dogs life. My only specification was that the dog was small (I live in an apartment and the landlord approved of small dogs)... So the day I was set to pickup a Jack Russel from being euthanized... My boyfriends father passed away, and I had to call the rescue and cancel. It took a week before we could bring any dog back, because of all of the arrangements we were making. I spoke to the rescue a week later, and of course the Jack russel was gone... I was then told about another dog who was at the Staten Island, New York ACC (Animal Care and Control). The rescue told me that they did not meet him personally, but he needed to leave the shelter (or else) and that the staff liked him.

So I called the shelter and I spoke to the manager and I asked her about him ( All I was told was: He is roughly 2yrs old, AROUND *SCALE WAS BROKEN* 28LBS (PUSHING IT FOR THE LANDLORD) and he was a german short hair pointer or manchester terrier mix. just a regular pound puppy. The shelter closed at 8pm and I was working in Manhattan.. so I had to race to get out of work in time because of the LONG commute. My boyfriend and I made it with only 10 minutes to spare. I knock on the shelter door and a guy answers... He went to bring "Duke" out. We take him outside the shelter door, and he went right to the bathroom. He did not look at either me or my boyfriend and was very aloof. I asked the worker about him... The only info they had on Duke was that he was found tied up and abandoned. The person who found him took him home... When he brought him in the house Duke bit his GREAT DANE'S ear. So he kept them separated and then later took him to the shelter. Duke was then placed on a DOH (DEPT. OF HEALTH) 10 day bite hold. After the 10 days he either had to go to a rescue group or be euthanized. So after we go back into the shelter... my boyfriend starts to see all of the other helpless faces in there cages who seemed much sweeter than Duke and they all awaited the same fate. It was obvious he was not interested in saving Duke... but apparently we were his only 2nd chance. They said they would have to set him up to have his vaccines and surgery done if we were going to take him... So we would have to call the rescue or the shelter and let them know the next day. I wasn't sure if we could take him because he obviously was not 28lbs... and that was pushing it as it was. I called the rescue the next day and told them he was a lot bigger than I thought he would be. She then told me that the shelter had called right before I did, and they needed to know what to do with him surgery or euth. As I'm on the phone with the rescue, I told my bf this and he said o k we will get him. I STRESSED to the rescue that I was only taking him as a temporary foster and we needed to get him a foster home or adopted asap. Well, this is SIX MONTHS LATER... I still have him. The landlord was NOT pleased when she saw him, and I told them it was only temp. but after awhile they were accepting of him. I think it had to do with the fact that our other dog passed away. Right after we took Duke out of the shelter... we then realized not only does he not know ONE COMMAND... He would shut down at the sight of stairs (I live in a fourth floor walk up by the way)... It took me about 10 days (3-4 walks a day) to get him not to shut down on the stairs entirely. The trainer I met with is the one who told me that Duke looked just like a rat terrier... The reason I had to meet with a trainer was... Duke IS A WILD BEAST AT THE SIGHT OF ANY DOG. The trainer works a lot with protection dogs and dominant breeds and he looked at me and said "HE IS A REAL GANGSTER" ... just not what I wanted or needed to hear. I live in a dog saturated area. I can't go out for a walk during the day and not see a plethora of dogs. This is the reason he has not been adopted. A few weeks later after the second person mentioned he looked like a rat terrier... I started to do some research. There was no way he was a rat terrier because he is huge compared to them. I also had to take him to the vet once because he was puking. At the vets office he weighed 41 pounds. Well, in my internet search, I found some info on Decker rat terriers. I sent seeger mills site to my other rescue friend... and she was amazed- "I can't believe you found what he is"... I think he also fits the personality description as well. I am very proud of him, because he has come along quite a bit.. I have been able to teach him several commands... BUT he is still a nightmare on the leash at the sight/smell/sound of ANY dog or cat. He has improved A LOT... but he is still not manageable enough for most people who are looking to adopt. I just recently have been able to take his 2nd leash off. I was walking him with 2 leashes (prong collar and harness as a backup). I made an album of him from the last few months.. Please take a look and let me know what you think... http://s840.photobucket.com/albums/zz330/D...nt=IMG_0074.jpg

thanks

Body Shot

http://s840.photobucket.com/albums/zz330/D...3488505-2-x.jpg

Well, guilty as charged I guess. Some of the features, especially the head look more rat terrier like, but the weight would certainly indicate some other blood. Fox Terrier anyone?

Is the trainer having any luck toning him down?

Hi there,

thanks for replying! Well, I have seen fox terriers and I am not sure about that. All of the pics are taken from a cell... so they are not of great quality. Due to funds and the rescue being a small group... I paid for the trainer sessions myself. He showed me what to do with Duke. I also had a session with another trainer as well. I have tried various collars, 2 different harnesses, food, and PATIENCE on my part ; (). He still barks and lunges at dogs. I have to correct him with the collar and then sit him down facing the other way. Its a struggle, but I learned to not raise my voice and just push his but down while turning him away... For the most part he doesn't stop until the dog is out of sight. I was hoping someone with property would have adopted him... Given the opportunity he would go after a cat as well. I also ran into a stray rabbit one night on our walk and he acted the same way. He is great with me and has not bit me, even when I have to dual with him on our walks. He is calm around people and kids. Duke is a great watchdog and lets you know when a person is at the door.

So far, I have taught him these verbal commands sit/down/come/catch/paw/belly/and around (he circles me). He is also in the process of learning back and up. I take him to the dog park as often as I can (wee hours of the morning), and I leave if another dog shows up. He fetches like a PRO and he is lightning FAST. He has "SPIDEY" senses... he acts as a goalie so I have to kick the ball really well or he will block it. He will play fetch for 2 hours and not lay down. I have never seen a dog with such energy and determination. He will drop the ball if I ask ... no problem. He is not food or toy aggressive at all. This is strictly an animal thing. He is doing well considering the fact he didn't know any commands. It took me 2 weeks to teach him down... and then I taught him a command every week or so. He also knows the hand signals for sit/down/and belly now as well.

He looks 100% Rat Terrier to me in all of his pics... And Rat Terriers CAN BE large... Rat Terriers do not have to be "Decker" or "mixed" to be large... My first Rat Terrier, Travis, had NO Decker blood and was definitely a purebred Rattie, and he was 40 lbs at maturity.

Your boy is a beautiful dog! He is so lucky to have someone like you to love him!

Edited... I forgot to mention that our boy was 19 inches at the shoulder, in addition to being 40 lbs. I always felt that he looked like a old-fashioned type hunting Rat Terrier.

Hi Danielle,

Thanks so much. I just went back to the site that Duke looks very similar to ... here it is
http://imageevent.com/kimsee/seegmillerdec...lersbulletproof .

http://imageevent.com/kimsee/seegmillerdec...l=0&w=2&s=0&z=2

He also gets the same look as that dog, when we are outside. Duke was found in a rich area of Staten Island... so I really think they just let him out in the yard. Much to my dismay, He had no idea what a leash was... LOL. I have never met a dog quite like him, in so many ways he's unique. If I so much bang my elbow he comes running in the room in a flash. A rat terrier rescue saw my ad for adoption last month, and they suggested I find a forum for Decker fanciers. I also happened to type in the word hunting with Decker, that is how I came across this site. .. hunting is exactly what the trainer says he is doing outside. He also said that he could be a drug sniffing dog. The minute we open the door... his nose is going 100 miles tracking. I have tried various foods with him... and he seems to have a delicate stomach. I found the best way for him to have normal bowel movements is adding brown rice to his Newmans Own organics. I also regularly give him cooked chicken. He was retested for parasites and nothing came up. So the vet said to try chicken and rice only for a week... and it worked. Then when I go back to dry food... he doesnt react as well to that. I have tried various brands and Newmans seems to be tolerated the best.

I agree with Danielle - he looks like on giant Rat Terrier!

As far as training goes, I might go to someone who has done Schutzhund work. The reason for this is that terriers can REALLY have a mind of their own, and all-positive training usually* doesn't work for them - they have to know that (1) you're the leader and (2) there will be consequences. Schutzhund trainers know how to instill that into their dogs and their people.

*I say usually because I have met a few dogs (one in my own kennel) who shut down when they think they have displeased me. It doesn't sound like Freedom is one of those, though!

I wouldn't be so sure that he isn't Decker or at least part Decker... I have seen a number of Deckers that looked very similar to him...

I don't believe he has much Fox Terrier in him if any... and I don't believe he is just Rat Terrier.... most large rat terriers, if any without decker blood even exist anymore, tend to be a bit on the shorter legged side like the Keys dogs... yes, before anyone jumps on me, the keys blood we see now are taller dogs, but not until the infusion of Decker blood....

Clyde

Are you sure about that? Go look at some old Rattie lines - there are plenty without any of Decker's kennel influence, and MANY are very long legged Whippet-type terriers, who are not short on leg at all.

Much of it also depends on where the line was located - in the south and the east coast, they wanted a shorter legged go to ground dog, and in the midwest they wanted a longer legged rabbit dog who could give chase across the open field.

There is a certain seriousness to the head and expression of most deckers that I don't see there, a broad flat topped skull with high set ears, whether they show the squared off muzzle of Mr. Big or the more tapered one of his sire Wragler. Most modern deckers have these dogs in their pedigree. Ellis Decker's site has some good photos of these dogs. They have been extensively cross bred with rat terriers in recent years so your dog could certainly have some decker blood. Go to nrta.com in the breeders section and scroll down to Oregon. Check out his deckers of the past albums.

I didn't realize there were any 19 inch 40 lb. standars rats around any more. These heritage rats (fiests) were common farm dogs in the early part of the last century. Your dogs interest in cats is still typical. They have to be raised with them not to consider them as prey. Most of us would want them to go after rabbits agressively, but not other dogs in a public place. Sometimes there is some same sex agression, but the fact that yours is agressive towards all dogs and was never introduced to a leash makes me think he was raised without any exposure to other dogs, and never learned the basics of how to relate to them. i'd find a friendy female dog and force this guy to behave with her. Take him down and make him submit like Caesar Milan does if you are now comfortable that he accepts you as his leader.

I didnt' think that the head was right for a Decker either... He has a rounder backskull and a deeper stop than what most Deckers have IMO.

I'm sure there are still a lot of large Rat Terriers out there. There are THOUSANDS of rat terrier breeders out there (that in an understatement, I'm sure)... A lot of people dont' have websites, and dont' advertise their dogs... Or, they only advertise them locally where they live... For example... My parents have some bigger Rat Terriers, they raise a litter on occasion. They are in fact the ones that we got our boy Travis from.

That's encouraging, perhaps the search for the heritage decker lives!

Don't mind me, saveadeathrowdog, I'm just throwing in some dog politics. A review of this site may fill you in. Do you have an easier to spell name?

Not sure what you're trying to imply here? What is that all about??? I never said anything about a "Heritage" type dog... I said that I had a large Rat Terrier that was bred by my parents.... Don't know how you got anything regarding a "Heritage Decker" out of that. But WHATEVER Jack! I guess I am done participating in this converstation.

No connection meant with your dogs or you and the "heritage decker" Danielle. Relax. I just mean that the larger dogs may more true to the farm dog heritage, before people started downsizing the rat terrier by breeding in Toy Fox, Chihuahua, and such. Such dogs could be a source of outcross if they still had the hunt and good temprements. The heritage decker club says that their dogs ARE the old farm dogs, even tho they were developed from different breeds in the 1970's, so yes, I was ribbing them a bit when I used that term heritage decker. What are your parent's dogs like and how would you compare them to your higher percent deckers?

If you go and look at many, many old pictures of the old feists, those were not large dogs. They were all the smaller type feists - yes, some had a bit more leg on them than others, but not many were bigger than 15". To say that the bigger dog *is* the original farm dog is extremely misleading, IMO. Not to diss anyone or their dogs here, because I have a few big'uns, but I'd like to see them burrow in between hay bales to rid the barn of rats - it ain't going to happen!

You do know that TFTs are just small Smooth Fox Terriers, right? Those dogs have plenty of hunt in them, don't let that small size fool you. The same goes with the Chihuahua- their purpose in a former life was to be put into grain vases to kill mice. They both have plenty of bark in them, but most terriers do. I have yet to see either breed of dog back down from any kind of challenge!