i assume theres already a thread about this.. but i cant find it, so heres a new one

some points to start with:

~the media is really biased.. so whats really going on?... who is really objective?
~who is out of line? israel or hamas?
~is it safe in israel? ..its better be because my mom is there
~how is it going to end?
~isnt 'pushing israel into the sea' a little extreme?
~where is amuniton stored??..and whats the impact that?


any other ideas?
my friend showed me this video thatt ill put on.. i'll admit its biased, but i think its true.. http://il.youtube.com/watch?v=I1M4eH9Kk7I

to be completely honest, i HATE what israel is doing, and how we (the united states) and backing them up completely.

what israel is doing is disgusting, imposing a blockade on the Gaza strip. they weren't (and still aren't) allowing any kind of supplies be it medical or food, technology whatever, they weren't letting it into Gaza. Why? because they want to provoke Hamas. Israel can play the victim card and get away with bombing the crap out of the palestinians, if the palestinians launch an open offensive first.

Israel is way, way, WAY out of line. they have killed hundreds more civilians than Hamas ever did in israel, they are directing their attacks at the leaders of hamas, but really, hamas is like an inch big! EVERYONE LIVES ON TOP OF EACHOTHER! if they really cared about getting on with affairs they would be more peaceful and more inclusive. they would not respond to the crappy rockets that don't even go anywhere that hamas send over, with big expensive american-paid for weapons launched accurately into CIVILIAN TERRITORY! they would not be blockcading the gaza strip, they would not be trying to take more land from palestine and the surrounding nations.

what hamas is doing, in my opinion, is more than justified. these people have a right to be pissed off. we marched in there with the UN, took their land, and said "here israel! your best friend is America!" so that these surrounding nations will have to fight with the best armed force EVER. palestinians in israel are living in a modern apartheid, they are discriminated against openly, and israel is still able to come off looking like a victim to the western media.

what the palestinians need however, is not to fight. they are right to be angry, and they are right to launch missles (no matter how crappy and innacurate they are) into what is THEIR homeland. but this is not going to solve any problem, this will just make the sitauation messier. what they need is a MLK, a Ghandi, a Mandela. they need someone who will rally the people with peace so that they can be respected. no one will respect or have sympathy for a terrorist organization (weird that israel is pulling this off right?) but if the palestinians calm down a bit, and protest peacefully, well who WOULDN'T side with them? they are right to be angry after all.

basically, screw israel. and us! i am so disgusted that we basically baby-feed them weapons, technology, and information. it's terrible.

Those are all good questions. To be frank, I'm not up to par with the entire situation. Who started it?

From what I've heard, Israel is just trying to defend itself from Hamas. People from Hamas hide behind innocent civilians in Gaza. This results in an unfortunate amount of casualties. But does Israel have a right to defend its people as well?

I don't know.

But apparently Faux has a completely different perception of things. Perhaps you can elaborate and clear things up for me, fauxy. You say Israel started it? And that Hamas is justified? Por que?

I just need someone to start from the beginning so I can get the whole story. I watched your video, purple. It does make Hamas look particularly bad. :/

Alright, so I know quite a bit about this situation, can I give credit for this to my favorite subject in the world --- INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS! if you ever have a chance to take this course, please do! i don't know what i would have done without it. mmmm IR.... anyway...also actually, alot of this i learned from european history. take that too. it's fabulous.

Okay, so technically, Israel and the Western world, the UN basically, started it. Here's some history. Since the destruction of Ancient Israel (longlonglonglonglong time ago) to the present era, people everywhere have been trying to find a place for the Jews! Zionists (read up on Herzl if you are interested) and the British had ideas of places in Uganda, Nazi's orginally wanted to put them in Madagascar, and there were some plans for an area in Russia (but Russia has always been quite anti-sematic.) After WW1 the very weak League of Nations approved a mandate proposed by great britain which would use palestine to create a "jewish homeland." after ww2 the UN decided to split palestine (think like pakistand and india) between an Arab state, and a Jewish state. As soon as this happened, Israel was attacked by all of it's neighbors. Israel, however, had/has really powerful allies, and won the wars. Though Israel was attacked first, the land was taken away from the Arabs forcefully, and so this is where the conflict begins (nevermind the years of hostility, this is the modern israel we're talking about.)

So wars, most brief (i.e. the six days war) were fought and israel won each time because of allies that pump a ton of money into their country because we need a friend in the middle east. the most open fighting goes on with palestine however, because Israel keeps taking more and more land, and treats Arab citizens like crap in their own country (apartheid,) and because they blockade the Gaza strip, force Gazan families out of their homes, and and building giant walls around them to isolate them.

So that's a bit of history, there is alot more to say, obviously, but i will leave that up to you to fill in the gaps. Hamas is a terrorist organization, but they have a right to be pissed. Their land has been taken, their homes destroyed, their people have been put under a blockade, and Israel gets away with it all. Gazans (and more recently, Jordans) have launched rockets into Israel...but these rockets SUCK. these people have NO MONEY! they have NO TECHNOLOGY! their rockets don't really hit anything, or anyone, hardly any Israeli's get hurt. Israel is responsible for being attacked, because they are provoking Palestine. They want Palestine to launch a rocket into their country, because it gives them an excuse to bomb the shit out of the palestinians. Think about it logically, Israel has no reason to fear the Gazans. seriously, if you think they can do serious damage, you are either incredibly stupid or just way misinformed. Israel has the strength of the united states military behind it. please.

Don't believe me? Look at the facts! Look at what Israel is going to the Gazans, to the Palestinian! They are purposefully provoking them to action! They are killing HUNDREDS of innocent palestinians, whereas the palestinians have killed what? a dozen israeli's? yes a country has a right to defend itself, and this is why i think Palestine is more than justified. I only wish they would see they won't get anywhere with force, as they are unenvenly matched, and I wish that they would rally behind a peace figure. they would get so much more accomplished! They are in the right, they need to get smarter and realize that Israel is provoking them, they need to act peacefully to make a difference!

Goodness, Narwhal. Gaza elects a TERRORIST ORGANIZATION to run it's country, randomly fires rockets into Israeli towns, hides their militants and arms in Mosques, hospitals, and schools ON PURPOSE, and when Israel does something to protect it's citizens, Israel is the bad guy.

WHAT?!

As of now, the history behind how Israel became a nation and whether you like it or not is irrelevant. They are a legitimate nation, plain and simple. Now, with THAT being the starting point, let's discuss this like rational people who believe that a nation should actually protect it's people from terrorists instead of lying down and letting rockets and mortars be fired into their villages.

As for your claim that Hamas has no money, it is complete folly. Palestinian terrorist groups were the ones with the HIGHEST INCOME in the past 20 years because they train terrorist groups from other countries (Germany, Ireland, Turkey, etc) at a very high cost, and have thousands of other ways to raise money (as of two years ago, including tax money from the people of Gaza). Hamas is no innocent group. Many civilians are, but not Hamas in the least.

Nothing matters. Pointing fingers is a waste of time. No one HAS to be wrong. It's about ending the violence with all parties involved.

This is what people should be talking about.

What are the options for fixing it?

oh jeeze spoon, i'm glad you responded, i was getting bored over here! ha..

anyway, you said,

What do you think Palestine is doing? Israel keeps taking more and more land by force from Palestine than was orginally agreed in 1947. What you do expect Palestinians to do, lie down for them? No! They are human beings! They are going to be angry, and they are going to turn to any type of group (like Hamas) that promises them what they want (their land back!)

What I said is right. The rockets that are being fired into Israel by Hamas, or by civilians, are not up to par. This is a widely accepted fact, this is why none of the rockets that are launched reach any kind of worthy target! This is why the rockets launched by people in the Gaza strip kill six civilians, when Israeli air raids kill HUNDREDS!

I was not saying that a terrorist group is a viable option for the Palestinians, I was merely explaining why they would come to electing those officials. I believe I said something to the effect of "What Palestinians need is someone who will organize them peacefully."

History is always relevant! Especially in the Middle East! Of course it matters that Israel was carved out of Palestine without their consent! Of course it matters that Jews living in Israel do so because they think it is their promised land, and that Palestinians want it because that has been their land for thousands of years! Of course it matters!

Israel and the United States (in funding Israel and providing them with weaponry) are also acting like terrorists. Israel provokes Palestine to action again and again, you have to be blind or purposefully ignorant not to see that. What Palestine is doing is not alright, but they certainly have a reason to act with violence. Their own people have been cut off from medical aid, and any type of trade by Israel (hello blockade!) and thousands of their civilians have been killed by Israel. If Israel was serious about working things out with Palestine they wouldn't be airstriking their civilians. What Palestine is doing is out of desperation and anger caused purposefully by Israel and it is disgusting to me that we support them no matter who has the most blood on their hands.

Snaz, what you say is valid, and I believe I addressed that in my first post here. I support Palestine over Israel any day, but the Palestinians need to wake up! They will get no respect from the international community by reacting with violence to the Israeli's, not to mention, them launching badly constructed rockets into Israel isn't going to do much damage. What they need is someone to rally behind whose message is peace. If they demonstrate peacefully, they will be listened to!

Oh yes, big-bad Israel is picking on poor little Hamas.

If you want to legitimize terrorism, fine, go ahead and say so about 9/11, Munich (an attack for Palestinian independence, btw), and every single gross act of terrorism.

These bastards hide within schools, and then complain that Israel is "targeting civilians" BULLS**T!!!

Oh, and don't trust the casualty count of Palestinian civilians for a minute, because the source of those numbers is none other than Hamas. The whole goal of their terrorist operations is to raise sympathy internationally and raise hostility towards Israel, OF COURSE they're going to exaggerate the number of those dead!

You need to focus less on the history of the foundation of Israel, and MORE on the history of Hamas and Palestinian terrorism and their goals. You will see that the opinion you hold is the result of their thought-out acts of propaganda and terrorism.

Spoon, I will try really hard to reign myself in and not completely bitch you out. I think that out of the two of us, I am the one least likely affected by propoganda. Western propoganda is all out rallying in support of Israel, without ever giving light to WHY Hamas is supported!

Do you think people in comfortable situations would willingly support a terrorist organization? No! The people in Afghanistan support the Taliban because it offered them structure, and these people are just as desperate. They have been forcibly removed from their homes, Arabs living in Israel are living under what is effectively apartheid, the entire Gaza Strip has been put under a blockade by Israel, and Israel elected to bomb those mosques and schools -- even though they knew this would not stop Hamas! Israel even bombed a school run by the UN! I'm sure there were weapons there right!

I am not legitimizing terrorism, I am trying to make it clear that Israel is guilty of it too, and we are by association. I am simply stating that Israel provokes Palestine, which is evident to everyone.

Israel has defied Resolutions 267, 271 and 298, which demand that it rescind its annexation of greater East Jerusalem, as well as dozens of other resolutions insisting that Israel cease its violations of the Fourth Geneva Convention, such as deportations, demolition of homes, collective punishment and seizure of private property among many, many, many others. Just this month Israel defied another UN resolution which aske them to simply stop bombing the Gaza Strip!

I'm sorry, but there is no way that both the UN and the International Red Cross got the body count wrong. Either way, based from the information released by Palestine, and NGO's working there, it breaks down about the same way with 98% of the deaths belonging to Palestine, and less than two percent belonging to Israel. You really cannot defute the fact that a disproportionate number of Palestinians have died in this one instance, or the grand scheme of this history, than compared to the Israeli's. You can't, because it's factual.

You need to see that Israel is provoking the people of Palestine to react violently. It's fairly clear.

Ridiculous.

Propaganda is not merely rhetoric and ideas, but actions and ways of presenting oneself as well. Hamas, as a terrorist organization, wants to use systematic intimidation in order to shift public opinion (both Palestine and the world) to their side, to raise hatred towards Israel, and wear down the "Israeli occupation" until it concedes to their demands. As for why Hamas is supported, it's because they had money, the voters did not, and they said "we'll give you a few loafs of bread a week if you vote for us." They recruit suicide bombers the same way. They pay the families of suicide bombers $400 dollars a month after the bombing ($200 for women, go figure). Don't try to tell me they have no money, because they have a good supply.

That is an environment that terrorists use for recruiting. Not only are these people ALREADY having a hard time (btw, they were persecuted by Jordon and Syria as well, nobody wanted them), add terrorist attacks forcing Israel to act through blockades, checkpoints, searches, tiresome wastes of time and loss of dignity that bombers still get through to kill civilians, and you have a bunch of pissed off people. And that's what Hamas and terrorist groups want. They want them frustrated, not with the group, but with the people who cannot prevent the group from succeeding in their attacks. They feel "oppressed" by an "occupying force", Hamas provides much anti-semetic propaganda (some of it is on YouTube, stuff like Jews sacrificing Palestinians and drinking their blood, Protocols of Zion, complete demonization of these people) to breed hate, and finally offer a solution through terrorism.

As for that school, even the UN admits there may have been weapons and fighters hiding out there, but they can't confirm or deny. And it's not that Israel "elected" to bomb mosques and schools. Hamas hides out in schools and mosques (this isn't propaganda, I'm talking no bs here), Israel inevitably hits those spots, and Hamas then spreads MORE propaganda saying that Israel is targeting civilians.

Now, think about this. You are claiming that Israel is breaking the laws of war by hitting these places. However, Hamas is breaking the laws of war INITIALLY by HIDING in such places to begin with. They are ALSO breaking these laws through the use of terrorist tactics! You're blaming Israel for bombing where the enemy is when the enemy DELIBERATELY places themselves there for the sole purpose of hiding behind civilians, and if Israel strikes regardless, they can propagandize it. The very existence of Hamas is breaking the laws of war.

And when I talk about casualty counts, I mean the number of civilian deaths reported immediately after attacks. They aren't talking to the UN or the Red Cross. They are calling a Hamas hospital asking for the civilian body count. It's a simple case of the fox guarding the hen house here. But yes, more Palestinians die than Israelis. But if Hamas fighters are shooting at Israel from behind women and children, and when Israel fights back civilians die because of that, you REALLY think Israel is to blame? No, it's the coward who uses civilians in such a despicable way that breaks every rule in the book of war.

You have it backwards. Hamas is provoking Israel to react violently in order to gain more sympathy on the international platform, using the deaths of women and children behind which they hide as the persuasive means, in order to reach their political goals. This is not a new method in terrorism, these tactics have been used before.

Spoons, I am not being influenced by the anti-Semetic You-Tube intimidation technique propaganda that Hamas is churning out. I have developed my opinion concerning Israel and the surrounding countries by reading reports from credible sources, doing my research, and studying history. So please, stop asserting that I am completely misinformed.

I would say about half of what you said is something I can agree with, but the other half is just dead wrong. I am saying that the reason Hamas is in power is because the people are desperate, I think you agree with this. When we turn to why, exactly, they are in such dissaray, we have opposing views. You say that Israel was forced to blockade them because of terrorist attacks. Not so much.

Here are a few examples of what the most recent blockade has caused. (This is from November)

This is interesting:

There's that word again! "Provoking!"

So, what does all of this mean? I believe it means that Israel (and US!) have intentionally provoked the Gaza strip to fire their badly-made rockets into Israeli territory. It also means that Israel blockaded humanitarian aid. If you check out Amnesty International, you will see what Israel is firing down on civilians and medical workers. Here's a hint: it's illegal!

http://livewire.amnesty.org/category/gaza-israel/

I know that it is believed that Hamas hides out in schools and mosques. Not a very honorable tactic, but they have been driven to this point by Israel! Israel did indeed elect to bomb schools and mosques, with the knowledge that this wouldn't get them any closer to peace with Palestine! Israel has blood on it's hands, and by association, we do too. I am not saying that Hamas is innocent, they are a terrorist organization. I am saying that the people of Palestine and the Gaza strip specifically have been persecuted by the Israeli's, and only retalliated.

Your arguments are based on Hamas being a normal political group running a government: DEAD WRONG.

Unless you look into the PLO (Palestinian Liberation Organization) and Hamas and see the goals, tactics, and ideologies they adopt to fight Israel, instead of merely looking at this as the conflict between two nation states (which it is not), you will never understand the thinking there.

?

No, my arguments are valid and I think it is very strange of you to dismiss them because you claim I haven't read up on the PLO.

I have studied this issue thoroughly for years, I know what the PLO stands for -- and what it does. The fact that Hamas is a terrorist organization does not take away from the credibility of my argument, which you have effectively dismissed for no apparrent reason.

The point is that you are functioning on the assumption that Hamas must have been provoked by Israel to use deadly force, because they otherwise would not randomly fire rockets into Israeli towns (targeting civilians, no less). That is incorrect, because Israel merely needs to exist in order for them to have reason to attack them.

Also, I want you to specifically address the point I made in my last post, which I will quote here, because I believe this is central and the point cannot be made enough.

Spoon, Hamas is the ELECTED PARTY of the Palestinian government. Yes, they are extremists, but they are a government, and it is therefore a conflict between two countries.

They are a terrorist organization due to their goals, tactics, and origins.

If they're a nation, they've broken every rule in the freaking book, including breaking the cease fire between Israel and Gaza FIRST, basing attacks and forces in places of high civilian concentrations, using illegal tactics and weapons, human rights violations out the wazoo, all the while SOMEHOW gaining the sympathy of the Left and the UN!

And ISRAEL is the country being criticized here?

What do you mean, IF they're a nation?? Palestine/The Gaza Strip is most definitely a nation. Denying that honestly makes you no better than those who deny that Israel is a nation.

Yes, Gaza broke the cease fire first. But imagine it like this--two brothers have always bickered. The younger, smaller one starts poking the older one in the arm one day. He pokes him and prods him until the bigger one gets really annoyed. He responds by punching his younger brother in the face a couple of times. Yes, the younger brother started it. But did the older, wiser, more mature brother respond appropriately? Of course not! I don't think you could find anyone saying he did.

Neither country is in the right, but I sympathize greatly with the PEOPLE of the Gaza Strip.

"They" was referring to the terrorist organization Hamas, not Gaza.

And don't you DARE try to naively apply "turn the other cheek" morality when it involves the brutal murder of men, women, and children by cowards who hide behind the weak will use any means to achieve their goals.

Your argument with that very poorly applied analogy was that Israel reacted disproportionately. I disagree. Their civilians are dying at a consistent rate at the hands of Hamas rockets, suicide bombers, and militants. The organization that you are touting as a legitimate government is enticing suicide bombers by saying that they'll pay the families of those bombers $400 dollars a month (a big deal there). Their conduct, as a terrorist organization, is typical. But as a nation, it is UNACCEPTABLE. So my point about it being critical to recognize Hamas NOT as a government, but a terrorist organization, is how you must think about them and analyze their actions. Either that, or the UN should be hurling criticisms at THEM, not Israel.

Israel has every right to react with force against such brutality. And yes, they will react VERY strongly. That's because they plan to win! They want their citizens SAFE.

Do you REALLY think that the US would tolerate for a MOMENT a neighboring country firing rockets and sending suicide bombers into civilian populations? HECK NO! We'd hand their asses to them, and I hope our government would. Why? Because one of the MAIN responsibilities of a government (yes, this is before welfare and healthcare) is PROTECTING THE CITIZENRY.

Yes, there are many complications to the issue, but the bare bones of it is that one nation is targeting the civilians of the other to make a political statement, and the other does NOT need to tolerate that AT ALL.

And I too have deep feelings of sadness for the situation that the people of Gaza find themselves in. They have been plagued by years of bitter bigotry (Israelis and Jews = devils there, due to constant propaganda), are "represented" by a group of terrorists, and those terrorists shoot rockets from their schools and hospitals to DELIBERATELY cause Israel to cause civilian casualties and further their propaganda of Israel being evil. They are the victims, but not in the way you and Narwhal are saying.

spoons, the thing i don't understand about your position, is how you are able to turn a blind eye to all of israel's wrong doings. They are guilty of war crimes, like Hamas, they have even done more harm to Palestine than Palestine has done to Israel. If you are going to be so dead-set against Palestines GOVERNMENT (because that's what it is,) you need to see that Israel is guilty of the same, if not more, things.

please read this, i would like to discuss it:
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=6583080

mmmm NPR

I would like you to let me know when Israel practices or endorses TERRORISM, and cite your sources.

And no, that does NOT mean them making military actions that you disagree with and having far-Left bloggers CALL that terrorism. It needs to fit the bill.

^^^This is true^^^

vvv So is this vvv

I won't cite the third anti-Hamas argument, although I think it had many good points, because it was made by a former ambassador of Israel to the US, and I know you'd claim his words to be laced with manipulation and lies.

As I do the first pro-Hamas person in the article, who was "a lawyer who has represented Hamas activists"... *cough*TERRORISTS*cough*

^^^HAHAHAHAHAhahahaHAHAHa!!!!... wait, he's serious?...^^^

He must have forgotten that the very existence of Hamas is based on the goal to completely DESTROY Israel.

^^^Irrelevant, actually. Whether one sympathizes with the goals of a terrorist group does not change whether they are terrorists or not. For instance, before Israel was established as a legitimate nation, there was a terrorist group calling for the establishment of an Israeli state that called themselves the Irgun (shorthand for "National Military Organization in the Land of Israel") that operated in Palestine between 1931 and 1948. Just because I would agree that Israel should be a state does NOT mean I change the language to "activists", "freedom fighters", or "legitimate political activist group trying to get a foothold as a party to run for government office". They are still terrorists.

Even further, I may think that Ireland should be able to govern itself without the rule of the UK. Does that mean I don't consider the IRA terrorists? No, not in the least.

You can sympathize with the struggles of Palestinians in Gaza, and I don't blame you. However, whether what Israel does is right or wrong does not have ANY impact on whether or not Hamas is a terrorist organization.

well then, what's the definition of terrorism? there is no internationally agreed upon definition, so let's make it clear what i'm talking about here. most dicitonaries list it along the lines of using terror systematically for coercion. so terrorist acts are used to cause fear, use civilians as targets (directly, or by complete disregard for their safety), and (duh) they are done to achieve some sort of goal -- there is an ideological purpose.

almost every single country in the world, has at one time or another, committed a terrorist act. we have done it in south/central america (elsewhere too,) Hamas fights against Israel (and israeli's), and i believe that Israel is also guilty of committing acts of terror against it's neighbors, specifically palestinians in the gaza strip.

and so, i will begin...

http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Herman%2...ror_Herman.html
(mostly about older acts of terror that israel has used, still important!)

what is going on in the gaza strip is not a first for israel, or it's neighbors for that matter, and because of that the above quote and link and really very important. it is crucial to understand that these actions have been mounting on both sides for many years, also it's a great introduction.

(this is from 2006)
http://www.independent.org/newsroom/article.asp?id=1767

http://www.mediamonitors.net/mosaddeq22.html
fear...terror...war crimes...terrorism?

we're not helping the situation either, take a gander!

http://www.countercurrents.org/nader210109.htm
(yes, nader. but you see, i only quote the numbers, and numbers don't lie, unless they've been manipulated. these haven't. moving on)

http://secularhumanism.blogspot.com/2009/0...sm-in-gaza.html
(yes, i have used a blog. the actual thing chomsky wrote is takes forever to load on my computer, i saw it on my schools computer though, so if you wanted to fact-check anything, it's there, although i will endorse this person's blog, he really isn't too biased, and i picked the part that is the most factual so really, not too much to complain about i don't think)

http://news-gazette.com/news/opinions/lett...ially_troubling

so let's talk about these illegal weapons:
http://www.amnesty.org/en/news-and-updates...ilians-20090127

http://www.amnesty.org/en/news-and-updates...d-gaza-20090126

http://www.amnesty.org/en/news-and-updates...vivors-20090121

some especially troubling/interesting things from that last link (they are all different i urge you to read them all)

http://www.amnesty.org/en/library/info/MDE15/007/2009/en

let's talk about the blockade:

http://www.csmonitor.com/2008/0122/p06s02-wome.html?page=2 (love the christian science monitor...almost as much as chomsky and the economist!)

http://www.csmonitor.com/2008/0116/p06s02-woeu.html (another CSM one, also very factual)

jeeze i think i have covered as much as i care to do for now. there is afterall, so much information out there backing up the fact that israel is guilty of terrorist acts too and that its actions against the gaza strip are not justified at all. i believe that through this post, you can see how israel is guilty of targeting (directly or indirectly) civilians, of manipulating people with fear (blockade), and of doing this for their goal of ridding palestine of a government that welll...hates them. so there you have it, israel is guilty of terrorism too.

so you see, both sides are guilty of wrong-doing. i am not going to deny that hamas is a terrorist organization, but i am trying to get you to see that israel is not completely justified in its actions. israel, like hamas, must be held responsible for their actions. it is ludacris to say that israel is innocent, that the 1,200+ dead Gazans (as reported by Israel Defense Forces') are justified because Hamas also fired rockets. israel's tactics and weapons used in the gaza strip should be a huge red flag to the rest of the world. how can we go about combatting terrorism when one of our closest allies, funded by us, is using terrorism against an already impoverished people?

click on this if you actually want to take action:
http://www.amnesty.org/en/appeals-for-acti...southern-israel

woah. i didnt see anyone respond to this.. woohoo! people like my topiccc!

israel only wants peace-- when you attack them, they'll attack back plain and simple.. but they dont go first.


using your citizens as human sheilds.. come on!

oh my god.


i am going to go jump off a bridge now.

spoonsie-pie? spoonular? where'd yah go?

What, you stayed away from that bridge? ;)

Have you taken into consideration the comparison of what Israel's and Hamas' longterm goals are in the big picture of things? Israel merely wants to be a nation existing without it's citizens being under attack by militants while keeping the land that they have.

Hamas' main goal is the establishment of a self-governed Palestinian state in place of the complete annihilation of the country of Israel. They take an uncompromising stance that Israel MUST be destroyed COMPLETELY, and they will not rest until that happens.

In other words, the approach that Israel has leaves room for compromise and the cessation of violence. Hamas? They won't rest until Israel is wiped off the map (really, that's what they claim).

I highly suggest the book "Army of Roses" by Barbara Victor. It focuses specifically on the stories and motivations of Palestinian women suicide bombers, but it also deals with a huge amount of the context with Israel and Palestine. I'm reading it for my terrorism class, and it's a good read.

i thought about jumping for awhile. but i am too excited about going to china this april to actually do it, we'll see about later though haha.

Hamas has that stance, it's true. That doesn't take away from the fact that Israel is committing acts of terror. it also doesn't take away from the fact that israel's long term goal is to stay put on what was originally palestinian territory in the first place.

Hamas is and has been open for talks, cease fires etc. and i believe one [meeting] is in the works right now actually, tri-lateral? maybe? i'll have to look it up once i'm done with this hinduism project.

the people of palestine are what really count. if israel stops what they are doing, they won't feel the need for hamas to be their government, they can then change how their country is run. palestinians would prefer peace over war any day.

israel is not acting like it wants peace. it's acting like it wants to wipe the gaza strip/ palestine off the map. if israel was interested in peace with palestine they would not be provoking them, they would not have blockaded gaza, they would not have dropped white phosphorous. they also wouldn't be expanding into palestinian territory (again!)

i will check that book out, thanks for the suggestion.


nevermind, i procrastinated and found some links. nothing too groundbreaking:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/mar/1...ans.settlements

http://www.imemc.org/article/52313

Yes, Israel wants to stay put. They want a state of stability and NON-violence for their country. Hamas wants a perpetual state of warfare. Hamas does not have the capability to wipe Israel off the face of the earth, but will not stop nonetheless. Therefore, they have merely set out to kill for killing's sake. If their goal was for Israel to remove a certain number (or all) settlements from what Hamas claims is Palestinian land (what land belongs to whom is debatable, seeing that Hamas claims they should own ALL of it), then there would be a reachable compromise that they could reach and have peace. But no, they choose either continuous bloodshed, or total annihilation of all the "Zionist Jews" (aka, Israel).

All the leaders of Hamas who opened up for talks in the past did so either as a front to make them seem like a legitimate group to the West and UN while still privately encouraging terrorist attacks on Irsael, or were soon killed by other Palestinian terrorist groups for having "bartered deals with the enemy", "betrayed the cause", etc. No, the hope of a terrorist organization bent on the complete obliteration of their "enemy" is a naive one to hold, because the nature of the beast makes such scenarios practically impossible.

Yes, the people of Palestine should be of great importance to everyone. But to place the responsibility of their turning to blood-thirsty murderers for their government on the shoulders of Israel is ludicrous. Let me quote myself as to why this is due to the nature of terrorist groups like Hamas:

As you can see, they use their violence purposefully against THEIR OWN PEOPLE in order to create a lack of faith in the security measures of the occupying force to protect them. Add a few abuses to tote around, propaganda up the wazoo, and Israel trying to protect its own people and being unable to prevent civilian casualties due to Hamas militants hiding in schools, hospitals, and mosques, and you have a bunch of manipulated and pissed off people willing to blow themselves up for you and your messed up cause.

Actually, Israel IS acting like they want peace. If Israel wanted to "wipe the gaza strip/ Palestine off the map", they would have done it. Trust me, they have the military capacity to do just that. But you know what, THAT'S NOT WHAT THEY WANT. You use the word "provoking" so much that it's becoming a lame horse. Being provoked does not justify terrorism, hate, or the drive to wipe an entire nation out. There is much more to the hate and violence against Israel than land, both you and I know it. The leaders of Hamas and other such groups say so themselves. If Israel gave ALL the (genuinely) disputed land to them and backed off, Hamas would STILL want to kill their citizens!!! That is not the legitimate conflict you are presenting it to be!

Would you like some synonyms then? I use the word "provoking" because that accurately describes what Israel is doing. They are aggravating Hamas and the Palestinians on purpose so that when they retaliate Israel is "justified" (in some eyes) to attack areas like the Gaza Strip. If Israel wanted peace and was serious about having it they would have been engaging in peace talks from the getgo. Historically, Palestinians have been much more open about peace talks than Israel. This is true for even the vast amount of time that Hamas was not in power.

http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8...1153861,00.html

And yet you say, " If Israel gave ALL the (genuinely) disputed land to them and backed off, Hamas would STILL want to kill their citizens!!! That is not the legitimate conflict you are presenting it to be!"

Let's not forget Jimmy Carter's work in Palestine. I know, you hate him, but what he got Hamas to say is extremely important. They are willing to strive for peace with Israel if they are given the, "June 4 1967 borders with Jerusalem as its capital -- a sovereign state without settlements -- as well as the right of Palestinian refugees to return, but without recognition of Israel."

http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/world/2008-04...ent_6635136.htm

What does Israel do with this information? They discard it! They refuse to recognize the potential for peace. If Israel was willing to compromise then peace negotitiations would already be way under way. So there's your reachable compromise.


You say that Israel is acting like it wants peace...how exactly is that? Israel continues to break cease-fires, refuses to meet with Hamas, blockades civilians in the Gaza Strip, commits acts of terror and gets away with it...how is this Israel striving for peace? I agree with you that Hamas needs to be more open and adhere to cease-fires, and yes, Hamas is a terrorist group. Hamas, however, is not the only one that needs to step up to the plate. This is not soley their fault, and I believe the majority of the blood is on Israel's hands. This is especially evident when you look at the disproportionate amount of civilians killed or wounded, international laws that were broken, and cease-fires that were broken.

I strongly believe that Israel is an instigator, I think it is fairly evident if you do your research. I've done some of that for you, do you not see how Israel is acting in the same manner as Hamas? They might not legally be a terrorist organization, but dropping white phosphorous and cluster munitions on civilians is sort of a "no-no" for any country that is acting humanely. This of course will not be proven for this particular case until the following have happened:

http://www.amnesty.org/en/library/asset/MD...ce|outline

Judging from everything Amnesty International alone has reported, I would say that in the case of Gaza, Israel is far more guilty of any wrong-doing than Hamas. Both of them have committed atrocities, but Israel continues to vex Hamas and the Palestinian people to a state where they feel they must retaliate somehow. Perhaps they could pick up painting instead hm? I'm sure they would create much better art than rockets.

That reminds me:

Interesting how the popularity of Hamas fluctuates with Israel's every move isn't it? I wonder what would happen if Israel would be the bigger country and stop using force, stop blockading, stop persecuting the Palestinians within their country, stop air-raiding towns and cities, and start to be productive and work for peace!

Narwhal brought up something interesting. Why would Israel drop white phosphorous on civilians if they were really just peaceful and defensive?

If this hasn't been brough up before (I haven't had time to read all of this--school just blew up in my face), white phosphorous is NASTY. It's an incendiary gas, which means that it basically burns as soon as it hits the air, and it keeps burning for a very long time. What happens if a person is exposed to burning white phosphorous? Third degree burns. Sometimes down to the bone. Israel claimed to be using this only for illumination and smoke screens, but it was found burning outside civilian homes. Which means that it was being used in densely populated CIVILIAN areas, which is totally agains international law.

Raven, you are ignoring the fact that Hamas terrorists and Palestinian militants (both of whom Israel has every right to kill) base their terrorist functions out of DENSELY PACKED CIVILIAN AREAS (mosques, schools, housing, hospitals, etc). They use human shields in a two-fold way. Israel either cannot attack them due to avoiding civilian casualties, or when these terrorists are killing too many Israeli civilians (genuinely targeting them, btw), Israel hits where the terrorists are. Due to them hiding behind women and children, civilian casualties are high (Hamas wants this). Then they use the civilian deaths as examples as to how evil the "Zionist Jews" are and how brutal the "occupation" is. This furthers their cause.

Narwhal, Jimmy Carter is a nut job, and probably the worst president we've ever had. If you can show me that the mission statement (for the complete destruction of Israel) of Hamas and the other groups in Palestine suddenly changed because of Carter's efforts, I might start taking your claims of them wanting peace (that is, coexisting peace, not one being obliterated) to be alittle more credible. However, many terrorist leaders in that region, when put on the international platform, like to put on the facade of legitimacy in order to raise Western sympathy for their cause. One leader publicly condemned suicide bombings, while the organizations under him knew and acknowledged it was just a front, and continued the attacks (not without his consent). You seem to be COMPLETELY unable to think that these terrorist groups could tell a lie to us "infidels" of the West, but will pick apart every word that exits the lips of an Israeli official. There is an unbalance in your levels of scrutiny here (maybe so for me in the other direction, but we just need to be open about that).

Also, note that they still would not recognize Israel as a nation, even if they got all of these things. Their goal of destroying Israel would remain, you mark my words.

They break cease fires because HAMAS BREAKS THEM FIRST!!! There's nothing more to say than that, because there is always a consistent barrage of militant rockets being fired into Israeli villages. If civilian deaths at the hands of terrorists who refuse to recognize a cease fire is not just reason to fire back in your mind, you need to wake up. Imagine if we (the US) had a cease fire with some country, and they killed our civilians. How SHOULD the US react to such a scenario? You tell me, Narwhal.

See my response to Raven for that quote.

Blockades and force are a means for protecting their citizens. You want to know what would happen if Israel ceased their defensive activities (that's what blockades are, after all)? Israeli civilians would DIE! Any responsible government would prevent that from happening. And you know something? Israel is being responsible, instead of hiding their instigating rockets among women and children as Hamas does. Hamas sends their own people to their deaths either through suicide attacks or hiding their weapons among the innocent. Israel attacks to protect their people. That should put into perspective the nature of the conflict right there.

When I say that Hamas plagues the Palestinian people with anti-semitic and hate-filled propaganda, I am NOT kidding. Watch these...

This one is a spot celebrating the deaths of Israeli civilians ("Send them to Hell! Tear them to pieces!"): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ynUeOB5Axqg

This is an excellent overview of the indoctrination of Palestinian children in Gaza by Hamas through charming-looking characters (one is a rabbit who claims he will "eat" the Jews") and other mediums: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YIBNRVgq59Y

A Hamas religious leader on television in Gaza instructing viewers to kill every single Jew as "enemies of Allah" and "murderous betrayers": http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2H8HFb-YG00

And not just Hamas, anti-semitic BS is everywhere! Just search "Zionism" on YouTube and see what you find. Here is a typical homemade video that blames all the problems of the world on Jews (according to this moron, Jews at one point sacrificed Christian children as part of their Passover celebration... If you want a steaming pile of hate-filled BS, look no further than the hate spread by Hamas supporters): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1pyFn97RdtY
*Look at the wallpaper on the guy's YouTube profile, Gaza is one of the main reasons he's making these videos.

This outrageous and disgusting display of hatred that poisons the minds of Palestinians and others around the world to hate a certain ethnicity based on the BS stories of propaganda such as "The Protocols of Zion" (very popular and still published in many anti-semitic Middle Eastern countries by their own governmnents) MUST END.

spoons, i probobly won't get a chance to really debate this until next week. i leave for NAIMUN in D.C. this wednesday and i am kind of freaking out because i have done next to no research and i am having a really hard time figuring out my position and what my country wants etc.

but i will be getting back sunday!

this is just a disclaimer, i will probobly procrastinate research or something and come on here, but just in case.



also spoons, israel produces a lot of propoganda. as their ally, we do too. my biggest point in this whole debate is that palestine is not the only one doing the wrong thing, i hope you are taking that to heart.

Yes, I'm sure Israel produces kids shows encouraging children to blow themselves up, and depicting cute rabbits saying they'll "eat" Palestinians. I want you to find Israeli propaganda of this caliber, I dare you. It's not there.

I don't think the point here is to paint the Gaza Strip and Israel with the same brush, but to recognize that both of them are at least partially to blame for the escalation of this conflict. I myself certainly don't think that Israel is all bad, I'm just frustrated by the fact that the US/MSM cannot criticize it and therefore we have no open dialogue about the very real conflict. I also want it to be clear that it is the Palestinian PEOPLE I support and sympathize with, not their leaders.

(I know I'm not one of the main debaters on this one, but I just thought I'd offer some perspective?)