CIT Research Forum -> Mike Walter's bank-pivot-turn

Mike Walter's bank-pivot-turn, he is not refering to a mere wing tilt

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Craig Ranke CIT

Posted: Mar 28 2008, 02:39 PM

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A while back the Frustrated Fraud (former blogger/CIT detractor Adam Larson) made an issue over the fact that we have repeated how Mike Walter reports witnessing the plane do a bank or turn as it approached the building, which makes perfect sense with the north of the citgo flight path that we report yet is irreconcilable with the official flight path reported by the NTSB and 84 RADES.

North of CITGO bank over Navy Annex:
user posted image

Official flight path:
user posted image

Larson actually tried to suggest that Walter did not really mean that the plane turned and was merely reporting the final wing tilt on its own axis as described by the ASCE in the very last moment before alleged impact.

Larson said:

QUOTE

While there is no discernible turn in the official version of the final stretch, CIT will be saddened to learn that there is a bank [tilt] in the 'official story,' recorded in the physical evidence. A roll of about -6 degrees is evident in the wing prints at the facade impact point (IMO a bit more level and a few feet higher than shown here - ASCE graphic measured by me).
user posted image

link to disinfo source

We pointed out how Walter specifically described the plane making a "graceful" turn on the approach to us in person when we had dinner at his house but Larson wouldn't accept it because he knows this contradicts the official story.

Furthermore Larson pointed out how Walter claims he saw the "belly" of the plane when it banked which would have to mean that the tilt or bank was in the opposite direction from the bank in the north of the CITGO flight path that we report.

Mike Walter said:

QUOTE

"I will never forget that day, trapped in traffic and then I rolled down the window and heard the sound of the jet overhead. [...] I looked up and saw the underbelly of the jet as it gracefully banked, then I watched in shock as the jet basically lined up the Pentagon in its sights and began to scream towards the mammoth structure."
source

Well The Fraud will be "saddened to learn" that video tape exists from Walter's early morning nationally broadcast live CBC interview on 9/12/2001 where he not only specifically described the exact bank/turn/pivot that we had originally reported he described to us in person but where he also made a perfect hand gesture to demonstrate!
user posted image

video here

But ironically....Walter described the low and level official flight path perfectly the day prior on the scene for WUSA Today colleague Gordon Peterson right down to identifying pole #1.
user posted image

video here

Neither the alleged "pivot" or "nose dive" that Walter later described are reconcilable with the official flight path or physical damage which requires a perfectly low and level approach as shown in the proven fraudulent security video.
user posted image

Larson has been uncharacteristically quiet since the release of all the hard evidence in our last presentation "The Pentagon Flyover".

It seems he can't get a break while desperately trying to salvage the official lie no matter how hard he tries!

Aldo Marquis CIT	Posted: Mar 28 2008, 02:53 PM
A Regular Jim Garrison Group: Admin Posts: 1,521 Member No.: 2 Joined: 31-August 07	Another interesting note about Mike Walter's account... Sources: http://web.archive.org/web/20050204090408/...h.com/mike.html http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u_g1GUztjGM It appears that Mike Walter is adding the detail about the gash in his right hand. Could it be that he was trying to add a more real human element by adding the story about cutting his hand? Was it a good segue into the "psychological scars" comment?

MirageOfDeceit

Posted: Mar 29 2008, 01:50 PM

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QUOTE

I looked up and saw the underbelly of the jet

Looking at your diagram of the gentle turn, this guys got a strange idea of what the underbelly of a jet looks like!

Best regards,
MoD.

Craig Ranke CIT

Posted: Feb 13 2009, 06:39 PM

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Interview as it appeared on Russell Pickering's site that has been obliterated by Russell Pickering.

QUOTE

MIKE WALTER

This is a subjective page. In an event of this magnitude the human factor is obviously significant. An eyewitness statement is just that, somebody's personal experience in statement form. It's human and it involves emotions. I did not "grill" Mike and technically analyze any of his comments. I am not neutral in that sense when it comes to this page. I want this to be very clear: I like Mike and becoming more acquainted with him makes me unscientific. If you can hear his testimony as it is intended then you may benefit from Mike's perspective. This is a stand-alone page. Mike's participation is not an endorsement on his part of any other aspect of this site. It is an opportunity to listen to somebody who was there and learn how it has affected their life since the event.

QUESTION: Can you describe how you became aware of the aircraft?

MIKE WALTER: I will never forget that day, trapped in traffic and then I rolled down the window and heard the sound of the jet overhead. I wasn�t surprised. I worked in the USA today building in Roslyn nearby and we were used to seeing a lot of choppers coming to the helipad at the Pentagon and a lot of commercial jets heading to Reagan which is nearby. But for some reason I looked up and saw the underbelly of the jet as it gracefully banked, then I watched in shock as the jet basically lined up the Pentagon in its sights and began to scream towards the mammoth structure. I watched as it continued to dip from the sky, diving towards the Pentagon. There are some trees that are adjacent to 27 the road I was stuck on, so the jet went out of sight momentarily. Then I picked it up as it struck very low into the Pentagon. The wings folded back and it was like watching someone slam an empty aluminum can into a wall. The jet folded up like an accordion. There was a huge fireball. There was the initial shock of what had just happened. All of the drivers seemed to be in a trance. Then suddenly it ended when a woman began to scream, �They just hit the Pentagon, get back, get back.� She backed her SUV back and forth until she was able to create a crease and then she sped out of the area on the emergency lane. That�s when all hell broke loose as people began trying to get out of the area any way they could, some went forward, and others turned their cars around and drove in the wrong direction. All in an effort to get out of the area.

QUESTION: How did you end up getting interviewed?

MIKE WALTER: I had a choice to make. Did I want to get out of the area and drive into work? That would mean continuing on 27, and then turning into the Pentagon North Parking lot exit. That exit allowed me to swing around and get onto 110 which took me right to work. On a normal day I was merely 5 minutes away. Or I could pull over and park and wait for a photographer to arrive. This would obviously be the story I would cover on this day. I decided to pull over. As I got out of the car and made my way towards the Pentagon I saw pieces of wreckage on the ground. Your natural instinct is to reach down and pick up the pieces and look at them. But I decided against it, because I knew that the wreckage was evidence. So I continued on. I was driven to find a photographer for the station that we worked with here in the nation�s capital. I wanted to make sure that they knew I had witnessed the impact and could describe what happened. I finally found a photographer. He had me explain where I was on camera and describe what I had seen. He then directed me to an area where an anchor was beginning to go live. I had to scale a fence and walk quite a distance to get to him. I got to the top of the fence and as I was transitioning to the other side I lost my balance somewhat and managed to cut a huge gash in my right hand before I could finally grab a hold of the chain link fence and get my balance. I still carry that physical scar and the psychological scars of that day. Once I had found the anchor and explained what I had seen the word began to spread that I was a witness. There were lots of witnesses there that day but they had left the area after the attack. I was interviewed by a man from Bloomberg, then John McWethy of ABC news interviewed me, and then the floodgates opened. I was interviewed by people from a variety of print and television outlets. A young producer with CBS asked if I would be on with Bryant Gumbel on the early morning broadcast the next morning. I agreed to do it, and would also appear on the CBC as well the next morning. But it was later in the day after I had spoken with my daughter on the phone that I consented to an interview with Jamie McIntyre with CNN. My daughter had just told me that a number of her friends� parents who worked at the Pentagon were missing. She was very upset, and I had no words to comfort her. Jamie asked a number of questions and I talked about that phone call and how tough the day was.

QUESTION: As you know, a descriptive phrase you used was taken to mean an aircraft didn't strike the Pentagon. How has this affected you?

MIKE WALTER: I don�t really remember the questions that were asked that day, I don�t really even remember what my answers were. The day became a blur really. But I do remember using a metaphor to describe what happened. I indicated to Jamie that the jet had become a weapon that day. I said it was like a cruise missile with wings. I never imagined for a moment that a statement like that would come back to haunt me over and over again. A French author would come out with a book describing in detail the conspiracy theory and he would use that quote out of context to help promote his conclusions. I was very angry about all of this, and I remain angry about it today. I�m also upset that so many people lost their lives that day and while some people who have written about that tragic day have donated any and all proceeds to the victims of 9-11, he has capitalized on it to make an awful lot of money. His book went on to be a best seller in France. My suggestion, buy �Covering Catastrophe� instead. It was written by the reporters who were there in Arlington, and in New York, and in Pennsylvania. The conclusion in the French book is absurd. I saw the jet; there is no doubt in my mind it was a jet that slammed into the Pentagon. As a result of his book I�ve been interviewed by both print and television reporters from France, and England. Recently on the anniversary of that terrible day I was once again interviewed for a documentary in Japan on this same issue.

QUESTION: What was your impression of the aircraft and its maneuver?

MIKE WALTER: I don�t know very much about aviation. There�s an irony to this since my father worked at Lockheed. I have a vivid memory as a child of going to an air show with my father and him describing to me the various makes of the jets. But to me for whatever reason I just have never spent a lot of time trying to discern the differences. I knew it was a big commercial airline. I saw the AA on the side so I knew it was an American Airlines passenger jet. I was surprised at how graceful and slow the banking of the jet appeared to be, and how quickly it accelerated after it had lined up the Pentagon.

QUESTION: When the aircraft flew in front of you, how far away was it at its closet point?

MIKE WALTER: I was stuck in traffic, but by my estimation it seemed as though it was about 8 or 9 car lengths in front of me. It was in the air coming down at a high rate of speed and a steep decline.

QUESTION: Did you see the aircraft from nose to tail?

MIKE WALTER: Yes.

QUESTION: What do you remember most about it?

MIKE WALTER: I just remember thinking that I have to remember all of this; I have to take it all in. I just remember most that it struck very low into the Pentagon. I also will never forget seeing that AA insignia. I was asked by the FBI agent if I could make out any of the people on board the plane. But that would be an impossibility. It went by so quick, but I am still haunted by what I saw, and the thoughts of what it must be like to be on that plane heading toward sudden death. I have to be honest I suffered from a lot of nightmares in the days and weeks that followed. In one nightmare my boss would give me a mop and I would go up on the roof and start to clean it and then a jet would come slamming into the roof. In another nightmare I would be on the plane, and all of the people would be faceless. There was every variety of nightmare that you could imagine. And if I was alone in a car traveling and stuck in traffic I would replay it in my mind over and over again. I�ll never forget one incident when a big 18 wheeler was passing and one of its tires blew out, and I remember jumping. It was a tough period.

QUESTION: Do you recall any turbulence or wind force associated with its passing?

MIKE WALTER: I don�t recall any turbulence or wind force.

QUESTION: Did you see it hit anything prior to approaching the Pentagon?

MIKE WALTER: There were periods where it seemed like the pilot was trying to stabilize it, I believe that may have been when it hit one of the light poles. But I don�t remember it hitting anything early on, although I am sure it must have hit one of the light poles right around the area where I was. Like I said to you yesterday you tend to second guess yourself because so many people have said so many different things. I do feel like it struck something near the point of impact, because I kind of remember sparks or something and the jet kind of wobbling or whatever right before impact.

QUESTION: How far away would you estimate that you were from seeing the aircraft hit the building?

MIKE WALTER: I�m not good with distances. I was quite some distance away.

QUESTION: Can you describe what you recall of the actual impact?

MIKE WALTER: I just remember that it seemed like slow motion. Again the thing that seemed so remarkable to me was just how this gigantic jet just folded up like a little tin can. It was truly amazing. I also remember the sound of the explosion, and the fireball, and then of course once I was out of my car and closer I heard the other explosions which we talked about yesterday. [My note: On the audio portion of Bob Pugh's video you can hear muffled explosions minutes into the event, this is what is being referred to.]

QUESTION: After you parked your car and approached the Pentagon on foot what was your impression of the debris?

MIKE WALTER: I didn�t see a significant amount of debris. I just remember two things about this. One was the piece of wreckage I described earlier and the instinct to pick it up. Then I remember at some point later in the morning seeing a guy holding a piece of wreckage next to his head with the Pentagon in the background smiling and having his picture taken. I can�t describe for you the rage I felt. I unleashed on the guy and told him that he had no business doing what he was doing and that this was evidence and he should have just left it where he found it. He then said oh well there�s a guy collecting the stuff right now, so he just walked it over to this guy. I felt like the collection of the evidence was pretty disorganized. But it was a very fluid situation, and no one really knew what was going to happen next. After all there were two attacks in New York, so naturally people were jittery and concerned about another possible strike here. There was just an awful lot of chaos.

QUESTION: Were you ever asked any questions by officials at the scene?

MIKE WALTER: I spoke to a military PIO [Public Information Officer]. He told me that the FBI wanted to talk to me. I gave him my card with my number on it. This is when I began crying about what I had seen. I was pretty embarrassed by this. I�ve witnessed a lot of bad things in my career. Shootings, fatal fires, earthquakes, tornadoes, and I�ve also been in a war zone. So I was really surprised at this response. He hugged me, and told me that it was okay and that I was in a state of shock. If I remember correctly the agent called me later that day and left a message. I called her back and talked to her briefly. The next morning two agents interviewed me at work.

QUESTION: Have you ever been approached by people with theories that contradict what you saw?

MIKE WALTER: I�ve only been interviewed by people about this as I described earlier. In fact it seems like I do more interviews about the conspiracy now then I do the attack. It�s strange.

QUESTION: Is there anything else you would like to add?

MIKE WALTER: I know a lot of people have different theories about what happened that day. I don�t have any theories, I just have two eyes! I saw what I saw. It was an American Airlines jet that slammed into the Pentagon that day. I have nothing to gain or lose by saying this. The truth is the truth, that�s what happened. The reason why I�ve consented to this interview is because I�ve learned a lot as a result of that day. I�m a guy who grew up reading books, newspapers, and magazines. I�m a guy who watches television and listens to the radio. Those are the mediums that I�m comfortable with and understand. I�ve written for radio, TV, newspapers and even contributed to two books. Having said that, I understand the power of the web, and did before 9-11. But it really hit home afterwards. So many websites have critiqued my words, and added meaning to statements I made by taking them out of context. Some how I�ve been trapped on the World Wide Web and my words have been used to promote this theory or that. I�ve been criticized and critiqued. I�m not sure what the theory will be on this website, in fact I don�t really care what it is. All I know is someone was kind enough to ask me to answer their questions instead of just jumping to conclusions, and for that I thank you. I know people tend to gravitate towards conspiracy theories, I can�t stop them. People will believe what they want to believe, but I know what I saw that day. [END]

This interview with Mike was in an email format on 1/17/05. The phone calls did not cover anything critical that isn't in the interview. I ask that any quotes from this interview please be used in context and with the knowledge that it was subjective on my part and not intended as a fact-finding statement.

Ligon

Posted: May 24 2009, 04:59 PM

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Watch this video starting at 19 seconds in.

Notice Walter's location on the highway from 0:42 - 0:46 as he says "...it was coming over this way, and then it started to bank, and then it just dove right into the Pentagon."

At that point in the video he has just passed the overhead sign and is pretty much directly across from light pole #1.

user posted image

Watch it carefully a few times. Rewind. It is clear that he is NOT describing the plane as being on the official flight path --which would have been virtually over his head and hitting pole #1 at that point -- and that he IS perfectly describing the north side flight path.

He is not pointing across the street to pole #1, because he says it was "STARTING" to bank at that point. It was clearly off in the distance, not extremely close to him, and not one second from hitting the Pentagon.

user posted image

He has it banking around, tracing the north side arc that we know that it took, and passing in front of his car.

In his interview with Russell Pickering he said: "I was surprised at how graceful and slow the banking of the jet appeared to be, and how quickly it accelerated after it had lined up the Pentagon."

So if it was "starting" to bank at that point then it was still moving slowly, not going extremely fast over the top of his head as it would have been on the official flight path.

Obviously the right-hand bank is corroborated over and over (Middleton, Carter, Stafford, Prather, Boger, etc.), but most specifically remember that this slow bank/quick acceleration is also reported by William Middleton, who says the plane was in a slow bank until it got "on track" and then went "full throttle".

Carter also specifically says it was "gliding" as it banked around where Walter is saying it "started to bank" "graceful[ly]" in this video.

Walter also says, "I looked up and saw the underbelly of the jet as it gracefully banked, then I watched in shock as the jet basically lined up the Pentagon in its sights and began to scream towards the mammoth structure".

His claim about seeing the underbelly is an obvious lie/embelishment. If the jet was in a right hand bank as he clearly describes in that video the underbelly would have been facing away from him.

Considering that Walter is describing the north side flight path perfectly it seems to suggest that he was really there and really did watch the plane approach. If he were just making it up I don't think he'd coincidentally describe exactly what we know the plane did and where we know it flew.

Obviously this flight path completely contradicts his claim of watching the plane go into the Pentagon -- a claim that he was really weak on and only became so sure about well AFTER 9/11.

As CIT has pointed out, Walter said on 9/11:

QUOTE

GUMBEL: Did you see it hit the Pentagon? Was the plane coming in horizontally or did it, in fact, go on its wing as--as it impacted the building?

Mr. WALTER: You know, the--the--the--there were trees there that kind of obstructed it, so I kind of--I saw it go in. I'm not sure if it turned at an angle. I've heard some people say that's what it did. All I know is it--it created a huge explosion and massive fireball and...

GUMBEL: Tell me, if you could, about the manner in which the--the plane struck the building. I ask that because, in the pictures we have seen, it appears to be a gash in the side of the Pentagon as if the plane went in vertically as opposed to horizontally. Can you tell me anything about that?

Mr. WALTER: Well, as I said, you know, there were trees obstructing my view, so I saw it as it went--and then the--then the trees, and then I saw the--the fireball and the smoke. Some people have said that the plane actually sent on its side and in that way. But I can't tell you, Bryant. I just know that what I saw was this massive fireball, a huge explosion and--and a--the thick column of smoke and then an absolute bedlam on those roads as people were trying to get away.

Of course, the fact that he mentions the trees obstructing his views is suggestive that he was a bit further back on 9/11 than where he was in that video. Nevertheless, even if he was slight further back what he says is completely incompatible with the south side flight path and is highly compatible with the north side flight path.

Aldo Marquis CIT

Posted: May 26 2009, 08:51 AM

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QUOTE (Ligon @ May 25 2009, 12:59 AM)

As CIT has pointed out, Walter said on 9/11:

QUOTE

That is the pic Russell Pickering claims Mike Walter helped him illustrate to point out where he was.

He says to Pickering:

QUOTE

There are some trees that are adjacent to 27 the road I was stuck on, so the jet went out of sight momentarily. Then I picked it up as it struck very low into the Pentagon. The wings folded back and it was like watching someone slam an empty aluminum can into a wall. The jet folded up like an accordion.

This is just pure BS. Those trees would have prevented him from seeing those details. There is no "momentarily". It would have gone out of sight completely.

Walter is caught in a pickle.

HanSolo911	Posted: Oct 16 2009, 03:16 AM
Curious Citizen Group: Member Posts: 1 Member No.: 1,113 Joined: 15-October 09	Hello CIT, First I would like thank you for this great work you provided to the community. I have to say that watching your videos was a turning point for me. Other technical videos about the pentagon are interesting but don't come even close to the psychological impact your approach has. I wanted to point you toward a video of Mike Walter which aired on a french debunking documentary. In this video Mike Walter seems to be describing the banking North Side approach. Please check this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ngsfd6R29q0&feature=related at 5:28. This info was pointed out by franck33 in this thread from reopen911.info : http://forum.reopen911.info/t12880-nouvell...rity-alert.html I hope this info can be helpfull and is not redundant. Thank you again for you incredible work. Admin edit: The original video he referenced has been removed but the relevant clip can now be found here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9kZQXQ2wP9s

broken sticks

Posted: Oct 16 2009, 03:43 AM

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QUOTE (HanSolo911 @ Oct 16 2009, 03:16 AM)

I wanted to point you toward a video of Mike Walter which aired on a french debunking documentary. In this video Mike Walter seems to be describing the banking North Side approach. Please check this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9kZQXQ2wP9s

yeah, from 5mins

it looks they interview him from the north side of this gas station - is that right? how cheeky is that!? it looks to me like he then points over towards lloyde's bridge.

does anyone have the full version of this?

Craig Ranke CIT

Posted: Oct 16 2009, 06:12 AM

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QUOTE (HanSolo911 @ Oct 16 2009, 11:16 AM)

OMG!

We've never seen this before!

He is standing on the north side and pointing to the north side and describing the bank again!

Let me know if you can do anything to get this original footage.

Thanks and welcome to the forum Han!

Craig Ranke CIT	Posted: Oct 16 2009, 06:19 AM
Administrator Group: Admin Posts: 3,930 Member No.: 1 Joined: 29-August 07	Haha! They even used one of our images where we labeled Mike Walter in an Ingersoll shot!

Ligon

Posted: Oct 16 2009, 10:39 AM

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They come back to Walter a few minutes later so he can describe his wings folding back crap.

Remember, on 9/11 he said:

QUOTE

GUMBEL: Did you see it hit the Pentagon? Was the plane coming in horizontally or did it, in fact, go on its wing as--as it impacted the building?

Mr. WALTER: You know, the--the--the--there were trees there that kind of obstructed it, so I kind of--I saw it go in. I'm not sure if it turned at an angle. I've heard some people say that's what it did. All I know is it--it created a huge explosion and massive fireball and...

GUMBEL: Tell me, if you could, about the manner in which the--the plane struck the building. I ask that because, in the pictures we have seen, it appears to be a gash in the side of the Pentagon as if the plane went in vertically as opposed to horizontally. Can you tell me anything about that?

Mr. WALTER: Well, as I said, you know, there were trees obstructing my view, so I saw it as it went--and then the--then the trees, and then I saw the--the fireball and the smoke. Some people have said that the plane actually sent on its side and in that way. But I can't tell you, Bryant. I just know that what I saw was this massive fireball, a huge explosion and--and a--the thick column of smoke and then an absolute bedlam on those roads as people were trying to get away.

Craig Ranke CIT	Posted: Oct 16 2009, 11:06 AM
Administrator Group: Admin Posts: 3,930 Member No.: 1 Joined: 29-August 07	This is just amazing. A few things to note.... The gas station had already been painted so this was filmed after he met us in August 2006 and backed out of the interview he promised Dylan. They removed reference to Citgo and painted the station a couple of months later in Oct 2006. This perfect description of the north path video recorded from the north edge of the station's property is amazing when contrasted with his perfect description of the south path to Gordon Peterson on 9/11 also from right in front of the station's property on the north side.

gh15	Posted: Oct 18 2009, 03:28 PM
Curious Citizen Group: Member Posts: 42 Member No.: 1,025 Joined: 5-May 09	wow, seeing both path descriptions next to each other like that is quite eerie.

9/11_Justice_Now

Posted: Dec 6 2010, 12:19 PM

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QUOTE (Aldo Marquis CIT @ Mar 28 2008, 02:53 PM)

Another interesting note about Mike Walter's account...

user posted image

Sources:
http://web.archive.org/web/20060710003317/...h.com/mike.html
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u_g1GUztjGM

It appears that Mike Walter is adding the detail about the gash in his right hand. Could it be that he was trying to add a more real human element by adding the story about cutting his hand? Was it a good segue into the "psychological scars" comment?

As the picture clearly proves this guy is the biggest liar of all the witnesses
who claim to have seen the plane hit the pentagon including lying about
seeing the wings of the plane fold back as the wings contacted the pentagon
wall as the plane supposidly went nose first into the pentagon at 500mph,
as everyone knows most liars get caught out eventually and the pictures
of his hands quiet clearly contradict his claim that he sliced them on the railing
what a lying piece of horse manure he really is.

So now i am left to wonder how many of the other 136 official flight path plane
impact witnesses are lying also about their accounts of that day.

9/11_Justice_Now

Posted: Dec 6 2010, 12:56 PM

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QUOTE (Craig Ranke CIT @ Oct 16 2009, 11:06 AM)

This is just amazing.

user posted image

A few things to note....

The gas station had already been painted so this was filmed after he met us in August 2006 and backed out of the interview he promised Dylan.

They removed reference to Citgo and painted the station a couple of months later in Oct 2006.

This perfect description of the north path video recorded from the north edge of the station's property is amazing when contrasted with his perfect description of the south path to Gordon Peterson on 9/11 also from right in front of the station's property on the north side.

user posted image

When was this footage Shot of Mike Walter and Gorgon Gross?
Was it about 2006 well after 911 had taken place?

I think Mike Walter is a liar and was on the NOC path on 911 and saw the
plane come in from that direction exactly as the other NOC witnesses saw
Why is he on the NOC path explaining to Gordon Gross how he claims to have
seen the plane come in when he claimed he was in his car on the SOC path
when the plane came in i think he might have been on the NOC path on 911
in his car watching the plane come in from the NOC path this guy is clearly
a GOVT paid shill end of story

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