Willingly involved, coerced, or manipulated, this is not a false dilemma

The body of independent verifiable evidence proves that Lloyde England was involved with the 9/11 operation.

The only question at this point concerning this is his exact level of involvement.

The reality is that we will likely never know the answer to this question so to discuss it is merely academic, but since it seems to be an issue that keeps coming up let this thread serve as a place for people to express their emotions about it.

Let me remind people that we have always left open the possibility that Lloyde was "manipulated" or "coerced" in all of our presentations.

That being said, we most certainly lean towards believing that Lloyde is 100% aware of what he did on 9/11 and that he was part of the plan and willingly involved from the start.


Here's why.....

CIT considers ourselves official story skeptics, not 9/11 theorists. We are true critical thinkers who saw how the evidence in support of the official story was questionable and decided to investigate it on our own from a skeptical point of view.

We rely primarily on independent verifiable evidence that we have personally obtained and deliberately avoid theorizing as much as possible.

We know for a fact that the CIA has worked to develop advanced exotic techniques to manipulate the human mind as has been revealed most famously via declassified documents regarding Project MKULTRA.

But were such techniques used on Lloyde England?

Maybe.

Again we'll never know for sure.

But this question seems to be a rather moot point and ends up serving as an excuse to not take action.

If Lloyde is under mind-control it's less likely he will be useful in a full blown investigation via grand jury etc.

To simply assume that he is definitely or most likely under mind-control is illogical.

When evidence implicates someone the last thing a competent investigator will do is assume innocence based on hypnosis or insanity or whatever.

The investigator must assume that a suspect may be knowingly and willingly involved unless there is hard evidence ruling this notion out.

Now the question regarding Lloyde's behavior typically comes up. People question why he would talk to us at all if he was a willing operative.

Togny phrased the question perfectly in the other thread:

Lloyde's role was not to cover anything up. Lloyde was meant to be seen, heard, and photographed as the star of a very critical staged scene in the official narrative.

But it didn't stop there.

He was also used as a significant part of the subsequent propaganda with his non-threatening voice and face being out front in the media to help sell the official line.

So yes, in my opinion he is behaving exactly like we should expect for someone in that role.

Catgrlz also asked a similar question in a very poignant manner:

To which I replied:

My feeling is that Lloyde is proud of his place in "his story" and would like it to be played up as much as possible and that the perpetrators WANTED this from the start.

They likely told him to talk to media and be a face of the event and may have informed him that he would be considered a hero of sorts by virtually everyone.

He may even be disappointed that he hasn't gotten MORE attention and is happy to get it from anyone.

They were likely counting on his likability, the difficult to believe notion of his involvement or the staging of the poles, and the overall robust strength in the propaganda that has quite successfully manipulated masses into steadfastly supporting the "war on terror" even WHILE they oppose the war in Iraq.

The small physical details didn't really matter because they knew there would be no real "investigation".

Lloyde is used to people eating his story up and with the strength of the dark powers behind him he probably has no fear or worries whatsoever about any powerless citizen investigator otherwise known to the rest of the world as conspiracy theorists!

Nobody has ever challenged him to his face. We didn't the first time.

Naturally he may have figured we would on the second time but clearly he decided on the spot to try and "iron this out" with us.

I bet he regrets it now and didn't really understand the level of knowledge, facts, and determination that he was up against when he first uttered the words "you can come in".


Bottom line, it doesn't matter either way because it's clear that Lloyde is not to be blamed for the 9/11 attack and it would have happened with or without his involvement.

But automatically absolving him of involvement simply because he seems like a nice old man and acts confused at times isn't a logical approach to this evidence.

Think about it, most suspected mind control influenced patsies in world historic events like Sirhan Sirhan, John Hinkley Jr., & Mark David Chapman have been incarcerated and therefore controlled yet Lloyde is allowed to roam free and told to talk to media while he is blatantly used in their subsequent propaganda.

Seems rather risky and unnecessary to leave a mind control victim in a continuous open position like that.

Although Lloyde's role was significant, it wasn't critical to the event like the other suspected mind controlled examples so I don't see why they would bother employing such exotic techniques for such a relatively minor role while letting him live a free citizen.

It just seems like using an asset for such a job would make a lot more sense.

Assets are a dime a dozen.

It's quite possible that Lloyde has earned the trust of deep intelligence over decades of service driving a cab around DC with a wire.

Hi guys, excellent work again with this. There can be no doubt the cab was staged and Lloyde involved.

I get your points about why he should be a knowing accomplice, but still feel strongly he is an innocent just used as a manchurian candidate here.

From his general dreamy demeanor to his revealing comments about memory loss before and during impact and telling of an eeire quiet afterwards when all hell has just broken loose and a silent stranger coming in an unmarked van to help with the pole just gives me the chills. No doubt the stranger and himself made the damage with the pole when all eyes were on the building.

Seeing the obvious hypnosis trigger image of the book cover on the front seat of his cab and hearing him tell of attending mysterious conspiracy classes that he can hardly remember was about, well it is all just too obvious..

Btw, if there is one thing I missed from your interview it was more pressure on this mysterious class. Where was it? Who arranged it? There is a big clue here. I hope you might want to consider following up on this although you have done enough already and Lloyde might not want to see you again after last time. However, he was obviously uncomfortable with the suspicions and might be willing to get the blame off him so maybe confront him with the mind control suspicions and see if he is willing to come up with any data about the class. You could even suggest a de-hypnotizing regression session with him, could be worth gold. (Sirhans new laywer William Pepper is trying hard to release him for such an examination and would know just the right kind of people for that kind of thing if you could get in touch with him, and I'm sure he would be more than willing to help as he is also onboard for 9/11 truth matters generally)

But back to the point, as he was obvious in on the plot, why risk him running freely around at all? But then again, why risk setting up the cab in the first place? It seems such a risky and unecessary move. Having a cab pierced by a pole served no purpose for the outcome of the plot in any way so to do so must simply have been the plotters getting carried away with their own ingeniousness and flair. That it was approved and Lloyde allowed to talk to people at any time means he must be watertight, a perfect control object that will never be able to recall or reveal anything. Or they simply think in their arrogance that since he is a poor old black man taking conspiracy classes that his statements would carry no weight to change anything, no matter what he said. Another thing but maybe a bit far fetched is that the mysterious neighbour who by some miracle of coincidence was on the scene right after to take pictures could be his minder or somesuch.

Hi Brinkman and welcome to the forum!

I think the opposite logic makes more sense in this case.

The north side evidence proves there are A LOT of indoctrinated liars involved with the plot walking around free to talk to whomever they want.

If Lloyde was forced to be involved with mind-control they would not let Lloyde roam free.

He would be dead or incarcerated.

The reason they know they can trust him is because he is likely a long time asset.

It seems real easy for others in the movement to suspect white guys like "Harley Guy" at the WTC or Mike Walter at the Pentagon but simply because Lloyde doesn't seem to fit the part people are inclined to come up with wild unsupported theories to account for his innocence.

But obviously the least likely candidates would make the most effective assets.

Lloyde revealed that he was deliberately lying about his location on the highway by admitting that his neighbor took pictures of him "up on the bridge" before we began the on-camera interview in his living room. This proves he was fully AWARE of his true location before we even got started.

He revealed a lot of things when the camera wasn't rolling and virtually admitted to being involved.

If he was under mind-control and wasn't aware of his involvement he would not have said this:

He knows exactly how he was involved and to theorize ways that he could be innocent just because he seems like a nice old man is not a logical way to react to evidence that proves his involvement.

Sure I suppose it's possible......but after spending many hours with this man and after witnessing how lucid he is at all times other than when he was on camera I have to say that I am 99.9% sure he knows exactly what he did on 9/11.

The "dreamy" senile old man card was strategically played and obviously played well.

But whatever....we simply call for him to be subpoenaed along with the honest witnesses and other implicated parties under the context of a congressional hearing involving war crime/mass murder indictments and let it be sort out that way.

Hi Craig

Obviously you know more about this than me, but what I'm saying is that the south side liars are doing so of their own accord in order to get status as witnesses of an historic event, just as the north side witnesses do when they claim to have seen the plane hit the building when they couldn't have.

There is a psychological phenomena that makes people automatically lie to be part of a big event also seen f.i. in the 1992 Amsterdam plane crash where far too many claimed to have seen the plane impact the building when it was not possible.

Some people like Mike Walters are just bigger [bragger] liars than others which makes sense as he is a news person and thought he had a massive scoop, but from his position could only have seen the billowing smoke as he also let slip in the on site interviews.

'Harley guy' is much more suspicious as he is consciously spreading cover-up disinformation and likely the same person who put the passport of the 'hijacker' in place on top of the rubble and I suspect if anyone is dead now it is he.

Besides, having a flotilla of regular joe witnesses in on the biggest crime of the century just to reinforce a theory which didn't even need reinforcing around Pentagon just seems implausible for the obvious risks involved.

If anyone would be terminated as a security risk it would be the conscious in-on-it witnesses imo who might crack under the weight of their own conscience or in suicide letters or something, not the people under mind control who didn't have any knowledge or memory of their involvement in the first place.

As you ask yourself, if Lloyde was a conscious part of the most hideous crime and high treason, why would he even talk to you and be filmed, and do so 2 times for hours? Why would he volunteer and be eager to show you any evidence especially after knowing that you had uncovered the north side witnesses and were skeptical to his every word?

He could simply have said no for the follow-up interview on the grounds that you were talking trash about him, but he let you in so either he has the most solid nerve and is one of the best actors in the land or he is unaware of his involvement and just thought he might clear himself. It doesn't make sense, but it does if he believes fully in his story and too slow to have picked up the real implications of your other findings.

Him saying the location of his car on the bridge before the interview further indicates that he hadn't understood what the new north side evidence really meant, but when presented it started to back pedal.

About his curious comment that you quote speaks only of a man who realizes there is something fishy and that he might have been used. Remember he himself expressed doubts in your first interview about there being no wreckage and for sure has questions about his memory loss and the cab damage.

I'm not trying to make excuses for him or believe him innocent based on his looks or age, simply that the mind control scenario fits so much better than him being a top field operative, consummate liar and actor. It's like with Sirhan. Better to use an unwitting dupe than a real operative and hypnosis works amazingly well, just watch the entertainment shows how easy it is to have someone do the most crazy things and not remember a thing of it. And some people are more susceptible than others. Just looking at Lloyde and one can see how he would be the perfect subject for hypnosis, he is practically deamwalking in his natural state.

His wife working for FBI makes it likely that he too was recruited for some lowly role or even just a routine spousal testing, during which a profile was taken and his extreme suggestibility was noticed. The 'conspiracy classes' that he can hardly remember anything from was likely where he was programmed and the David Icke book cover in Lloyde's cab was likely his trigger image - his polka dot dress.

Again, nothing can be proven of course other than he was in the very front line of the deception, but the fact that he is still alive and talking to you speaks more for unwitting dupe imo.

Would be really interesting with a hypnosis session with him to see what would be revealed..

Hi again Brinkman,


Have you viewed the massive body of evidence we present proving the plane was on the north side of the gas station making it impossible to have hit the light poles and the building?

If so you must realize that it proves that many people lied.

A lot of the published alleged witnesses are not witnesses at all.

The north side evidence proves that many were lying operatives and assets.

Certainly not all or most, but definitely many.

A black operation the scope of 9/11 could not have been accomplished without many dozens of willingly involved individuals on many different levels.

So to write off the most obviously involved personality who has been the center of a propaganda campaign focused on a proven physically staged scene as being under "mind-control" or hypnosis just because of your personal instinct is counter-productive to exposing the operation.

It reduces this hard evidence to conspiracy theory.

Your emotions for Lloyde and your belief that he is being honest is not evidence.

You won't be able to prove mind-control but we have PROVEN that the plane did not hit the poles and that no pole hit his cab. Remember it is HIS cab.

We are begging the movement to focus on the evidence and ignore all theories.

That is what CIT is all about and we deliberately limit ourselves to that approach as you can read in our mission statement.

The question of whether or not Lloyde is mind-controlled is entirely irrelevant to the evidence proving he was involved.

Help us bring the north side approach evidence proving his story false and 9/11 an inside job to the media and authorities. That's what we need to focus on because this evidence is the biggest smoking gun we have.

We can subpoena all 13 north side witnesses (and no doubt many more) but you can't subpoena building 7.

Yes of course I have seen your other videos where there is ample proof beyond a reasonable doubt that there was a factual conspiracy, I don't doubt that at all.

For that reason there must have been several people willingly involved, I am just questioning if Lloyde was used unwillingly, which I thought was the point of this thread.

I can't see how the fact that some operatives were dupes would change the Pentagon scenario from being a conspiracy fact to a theory.

My point is simply that for the most obvious accomplice - the virtual front man here - a mind controlled person would likely be used and I give the reasons why I think so, that's all.

I just add my voice to this theory for understanding and so that if any further investigation is taken place this might be followed up more, like checking the 'conspiracy class' and possible hypnosis session. If he were in fact unwillingly used he might agree to both which could be incredibly useful.

Hi Brinkman, thank you for your thoughts. I was just curious.

Do you think a mind controlled individual unaware of his involvement in the operation would say the following off camera:

Why would a mind controlled person move himself to where the plane acctually flew and then deny picture after picture?

Could he be feigning senility?

Also,

This is just not the case. Mike Walter is plainly seen pointing to pole 1 and describing the low, level skim into the building:



Yet when asked by Gordon Peterson if he saw the cab that was struck by the plane he said "he did not know about that".

Then to top it off the very next morning he goes on and gives an interview where he abandons the SoC flight path and trajectory and starts to report the NoC flight path bank:



Also he has had varying stories about how the plane struck the building when we clearly show that from his confirmed position that he cannot see the details he describes.

Oh and he is part of the highly improbable and very fishy USA Today parade.
http://thepentacon.com/LloydEngland_Accomp...eo.htm#UsaToday

Actually I don't find it all that unreasonable as even one who had been hypnotized to do an act and forget about it is still a functioning human being with reason, he might have gotten suspicious by himself or indirectly from you, even at that very moment.

What I find much more unreasonable is that he would talk with you at all if he was conscious of his actions, it would be so easy just to say no, don't you agree?

Because like most people he just hasn't realized exactly what happened that day and what you had found out, and denial is a human instinct. Imagine yourself having been hypnotized into doing something dreadful and not realizing after what you'd done, and then someone comes up with hard proof that what you'd actually been part of was high crime and treason.

I think you would be in serious denial too, so his was the expected reaction. I just think he is a bit slow on the uptake. If he was such a clever operative and actor, he would have known exactly what you had had found out with the north side evidence and wouldn't talk with you at all like I said, and certainly not state as you arrived him being on the bridge.

I can't say for him (or Lloyde of course) but the varying stories speak imo more for a person just making things up on the fly and to fit the reports rather than a prepared witness who would have a very rehearsed testimony or an actual witness whose story would not vary at all.

I do find it strange about the USA today parade though, but it was their way to work after all and I think everyone standing in queue that day was out of sight from the event because of the 'roadworks'. They just made up stories to make themselves look important is my guess as I find it too hard to believe that all the USA today people happen to be treasonous.

Again, I am not here to debunk anything or speak for Lloyde or his family, I realize fully that 9/11 was an inside military operation, just questioning you know..

Welcome, Brinkman!

Remember though: This is just after 9:30. Is it all a coincidence that they:

* were all (allegedly) running late
* were all (allegedly) the exact same amount of late
* were all (allegedly) within less than a quarter mile of each other on the same road in the perfect position to see the final seconds of the plane's flight (and also likely one of the only location where both the approach and flyover could be seen)
* all or almost all happened to make up proven-false stories (e.g., second plane on peeling off seconds after the explosion) that happen to bolster the official narrative and or second plane cover-story

Regardingly Lloyde, the bottom line is that no one has conclusive proof that he was mind-controlled/hypnotized, or that he was not for that matter, so it is a mistake for anyone to jump to a conclusion one way or another. To me the evidence seems to imply that he was not, but if you have a difference of opinion on that that's okay. The important thing is that we make a distinction between opinions and facts that are proven beyond a reasonable doubt. It is proven beyond a reasonable doubt that he was somehow involved in what is proven beyond a reasonable doubt to be a criminal military deception of epic proportions (as you know). It is not proven beyond a reasonable doubt WHY he was involved (coercion, bribery, mind-control, etc).

Actually I don't find it all that unreasonable as even one who had been hypnotized to do an act and forget about it is still a functioning human being with reason, he might have gotten suspicious by himself or indirectly from you, even at that very moment.

That makes no sense, Brinkman. There was no "reason" to his disagreement of his position according to the photos. There was nothing to be suspicious about. He moved his cab's position to NoC and denied the bridge(after mentioning it as his position). He admitted off camera that because they got away with it, that it would eventually come back to him. His story should be unwaivering, not littered with inconsistencies and subtle to blatant admissions.

Why is that unreasonable? It would look much worse to clam up and not be willing to talk about it. His account is the most sensitive, he must maintain it as if there is nothing wrong.

Because like most people he just hasn't realized exactly what happened that day and what you had found out, and denial is a human instinct. Imagine yourself having been hypnotized into doing something dreadful and not realizing after what you'd done, and then someone comes up with hard proof that what you'd actually been part of was high crime and treason.

Well at some point, he should have conceded. Isn't it possible he was just trying to confuse while acting adamant hoping it would bolster his believability.

Brinkman, he CLEAR AS DAY stated his position of the bridge when he referred to Mike his neighbor. He then changed it knowing the implications. This is willful.

I can't say for him (or Lloyde of course) but the varying stories speak imo more for a person just making things up on the fly and to fit the reports rather than a prepared witness who would have a very rehearsed testimony or an actual witness whose story would not vary at all.

Brinkman, you are just disagreeing to disgree. You are not taking the evidence or what he said into context, nor did you give it enough thought. He pointed to pole 1 being struck, mimicked the low level skim into the 1st floor, did not see or know about the taxi, and then changed his flight path to the NoC Bank the next day, while distancing himself from the details of the impact. Stop and think about that.

Treasonous or just following orders as deep cover intelligence agents? So then you agree then, they all made up stories about an impact? They lied. They are not genuine witnesses correct? Then the possibility remains that they are operatives part of planting stories about an event they were not present for. Keep in mind, that Rosslyn is a very large metropolis. Folks from Arlington, Alexandria, Springfield, etc, etc, etc were also driving to Rosslyn taking that same path. What are the chances that REPORTERS and EDITORS for USA Today/Gannett were in position in less than a 1/4 mile stretch of highway at the EXACT moment of this very controversial and non-transparent events? Reporters and editors you admit you think lied.

I don't see questioning as much as I see doubt casting and providing implausibe explanations for these issues. We have already visited these possiblities and our findings are not compatible with these possibilities.

Everyone has their $.02. The problem is we are flush with pennies and have a savings account with millions.

It's a shame that I come across as a debunker or disinformationist when I am solidly convinced by the available evidence and a staunch truther.

All I wanted to convey was my 2 cents that Lloyde was a mind control operative and how that angle could be used, which I thought was the point being discussed in this thread, but I must have misunderstood its purpose.

But I get it now. It's like with Sirhan. We know 100% he was there and part of the plot, so to speculate he was under mind control will just cloud the issue. Sorry for being so slow on this.

It's all good my man. I appreciate you getting it. It does cloud it and make it less believable. However, I will NOT rule it out. We just prefer to go with the most obvious based on what he said and has admitted.

Well my last sentence was supposed to be ironic as it of course matters if Sirhan was a willing part or not because if it could be proven via hypnotic regression that he was unwilling, it would strongly indicate or even disprove his guilt and by inference reveal a vast conspiracy. And this is exactly what his new defense is trying to go for.

As you all say, the other evidence proves beyond doubt that Lloyde was part of a conspiracy, so what could be the question tried resolved by confronting him or making a film about him other than finding out if he was a willing or unwilling part? I would have thought it would be the main topic of discussion as his involvement is already established.

As is the opener in this thread: "The only question at this point in regards to him personally is his exact level of involvement."

So that's what I was giving my input to in this thread, as well as suggestions for what I think could be quite important actions based on that, so to end up apologizing and feeling like an antagonist is a bit disappointing, but I'll leave it for now..

Here's the problem....

Sirhan is NOT the least bit equivalent to Lloyde as he has been incarcerated and therefore COMPLETELY controlled since the incident.

So your analogy is fatally flawed from the get go.

You are feeling frustrated because you misinterpreted the true "purpose" of this thread.

The point here is that the first reaction of many of the 9/11 conspiracy theorists is to assume that Lloyde is an innocent victim under mind-control. We hear it time and time again and in fact get emails virtually every week about it. So your feeling isn't by any means original or unconsidered.

But get this......we are 99.9% sure that this natural emotional tendency and first reaction is exactly what is being played on here as part of the operation.

That's why Lloyde "questions" the event and has a flippin' David Icke book in his car!

What could be more contrived than that?

It's for the obvious purpose of making you sympathetic.

Think of it this way.....if he was really under mind-control they would simply have him support the impact of the plane.

Why complicate it by having him question the physical damage, the flight path, etc?

So yes, the purpose of this thread is to discuss all the possibilities but to make it clear how we, the independent citizen investigators who personally spent all this time with Lloyde in person, do NOT believe for a second that he is being honest.

And to help people work through their natural tendency to gravitate towards an unsupported and purely emotionally based mind-control conspiracy theory.

We strongly feel that it's much more productive to instead focus on the evidence that proves his involvement.