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Title: Witnesses List Broken Down
Description: No such thing as 104 "impact" witnesses

Aldo Marquis CIT - January 15, 2008 07:28 PM (GMT)
Hello all,

Here is a great resource for you all to use. It consists of a breakdown of all witnesses in relation to what they said versus what they actually saw or could have seen. I based this analysis on what was actually printed. Without direct confirmation and srutinizing of witness claims and POV (point of view) locations, they are merely static words floating around left to imply an impact.

Seeing plane + smoke/fireball DOES NOT equal actually witnessing an impact.

Seeing/descrbing a plane + reporters deduction/sensationalizing about witness account DOES NOT equal actually witnessing an impact.

Speaking with witnesses and clarifying the details of their account is the ONLY way to get answers.

Some witnesses are genuine and some are not. Some are real people with real lives who were confused and convinced by the attacks in New York while some are deep cover opertives or assets implicitly planting bogus information to make us chase our tails or delicately dancing between ambigous statements.

Some merely deduced an impact while some either arrived after the event or simply said they were there and outright lied about an impact. The fact that they "saw a plane versus a missile" is what their account was originally touted for by skeptics but when accepted that there was a plane and scrutinized against the north side flight path and the fact that the local topography does not allow a complete view of the event, most of the accounts do not hold water when analyzed.

I am open to debate on this matter and tried to remain as fair and accurate as I possibly could. If I missed anyone, please let me know. If you disagree with any of this witness designations, then please let me know. However, you should be warned that I will ask you for evidence or logic to support your argument ie pictures and other supporting factors.

First and foremost:

Flyover/away witnesses and connections:
1. Officer Roosevelt Roberts
2. Dewitt Roseborough (person of interest)
3. Co-workers of Erik Dihle at ANC who said that "a bomb hit and a jet kept going"
4. Potentially witnesses interviewed by Dave Statter on 9/11. Witness(es) said "pilot tried to avert the building" and the plane "went to the side of the building not directly in"
5. Maria De La Cerda reports to the Center for Military History on Feb 6, 2002 that she thought it crashed on "the other side" and confirmed to us in 2008 that she did not think it was a side impact but rather that it was "on top".

Only saw plane (possibly from far away location), could not see pentagon, light poles or impact, either deduced or are lying OR do not directly mention or CONFIRM seeing an impact:
Susan Carroll (on metro platform at Reagan National)
Allen Cleveland (on subway metro train at Reagan National)
Meseidy Rodriguez (metro platform at Reagan National)
Steve Snaman (Ft McNair)
Michael Tinyk (CONTACTED/CONFIRMED by CIT US Patent and Trademark office in Crystal City)
Greta van Susteren (on the roof of a parking structure at National Airport)
Clyde A. Vaughn, Army Brig. Gen. (Saw the plane loitering over Georgetown, DC, )
Don Chauncey (small commuer plane)
Henry Ticknor (Rt 50, only saw plane for a moment-mad that people misrepresent)
Michael James -POV confirmed (Columbia Pike curve, trees blocked view)
Isabel James -POV confirmed (Columbia Pike curve, trees blocked view)
Mark Eastman
D.S. Khavkin (saw small commerical craft from back on Columbia Pike in highrise)
Allan Wallace (ran when plane came in, admits DID NOT see impact)
Mark Skipper (ran when plane came in, admits DID NOT see impact)
Steve Eiden (out on 395 loop)
Capt Steve McCoy (CONTACTED/CONFIRMED by CIT at 395 and Glebe Rd)
Andrea Kaiser (CONTACTED/CONFIRMED by CIT at 395 and Glebe Rd)
Ann Krug (Hoffman-Boston Elementary)
Mary Lyman
Oscar Martinez (saw plane, claims he only heard it hit, no confirmation to seeing)
Kirk Milburn (deceased, died in Motorcycle accident-CONTACTED/CONFIRMED by CIT, could not see impact or light poles)
Linda Plaisted
Alfred S. Regnery (watched it disappear behind bridges and concrete barriers)
Joseph Royster
Darb Ryan, Vice Admiral
Elizabeth Smiley
Steve Snaman
Dewey Snavely, Sgt.
Levi Stephens
Greta van Susteren
Phillip Sheuerman (CONTACTED/CONFIRMED by CIT, on 395, only saw plane for brief moment, did not see impact)
Phillip Thompson (does not mention seeing impact, only fireball)
Thomas J. Trapasso (CONTACTED/CONFIRMED by CIT1400 S. Barton, dubious conflicting witness and can't see Pentagon from location)
Richard Benedetto (claims he did not see impact from Rt 27)
Terry Morin, Former USMC aviator (CONTACTED by CIT, would not return phone calls, EDIT 8/08: INTERVIEWED by CIT)(up at Navy Annex)
James Ryan (And you saw it hit the Pentagon? No, at that point it went down because I was approaching a hill.)
Darb Ryan (quote only says "when out of the corner of my eye I saw the airplane" , the writer for Aviation Week adds 'a split second before it struck'.)
Mickey Bell (did not know what had happened)
Don Scott (did not and could not see pentagon or impact, confirmed by CIT)
Ralph Banton
Michael DiPaula ("sounded like missile", reporter adds detail about plane roaring into view, not in position to make determination on impact)
Lon Rains ("sounded like a missile")
John Thurman,Army Major who works in the Office of the Deputy Chief of Staff
Daniel McAdams (only heard)
Dennis Smith (no direct confirmation of impact, may actually support flyover)
Dawn Vignola (TALKED TO by CIT, claimed the plane was white seemed unsure of final position, on 9/11 said 4 times that plane crashed into heliport)
David Battle
Mike Gerson (G.W.Bush's speech writer; didn't come forward as alleged witness until a year later in context of propaganda piece; admits "I didn't see the actual impact")
Kim Dent (heard the engine, only saw shadow of the plane)
Cheryl Hammond [i](saw the big American Airlines plane and started running)

Dan Creed (up on Columbia Pike, no view of Pentagon or impact)
James Keglovich (no indication or CONFIRMATION that he actually saw the impact)
Aydan Kizildrgli (no indication or CONFIRMATION,writers words, his quotes do not allude to ACTUALLY seeing the impact)
Pam Bradley
Christopher Munsey, Navy Times (Owned by Gannett who owns USA Today) reporter (next to Navy Annex and saw plane over Navy Annex which conflicts with official story yet supports north side)-back was to the Pentagon, was traveling south.

Claims they "Saw" impact of "plane"/large airliner-were allegedly in a position to possibly confirm one:
1. Deb Anlauf (CONTACTED by CIT, would not return call)
2. Donald Bouchoux (military consultant. CONTACTED by CIT, would not return call)
3. Mike Walter (had dinner with CIT)
Sean Boger (CONFIRMED the north side, impact deduced due to seeing NoC approach)
4. Lincoln Liebner (at entrance to building in south parking lot, cannot see impact zone from there-but can see flyaway zone-also claims plane hit helicopter which it did not)
5. Hugh "Tim" Timmerman (Dawn Vignola's roomate, unavailable for comment)
6. James R. Cissell
7. Daryl Donley
8. Bobby Eberle (came forward well after the event, Jeff Gannon's boss)
9. Penny Elgas (has plane banking, places it 50-80 feet above ground over highway just before the alleged impact, too high to cause damage, did not see plane hit light poles despite being just a short distance back on the highway)
10. Mary Ann Owens
11. Scott Perry
Noel Sepulveda, Navy Master Sgt.
13. G. T. Stanley (unconfirmed name/witness)
14. Steve Storti
15. Carla Thompson (unconfirmed name/witness)
16. Terrance Kean (Unreachable)
17. Dave Marra (dubious, questionable witness-claims plane cartwheeled into building)
18. Aziz El Hallou (Debunked witness, photo possibly shows him at Navy Annex)
19. Robert A. Leonard(driving northbound in the HOV lanes on I-395; Pentagon is on the left. The plane vanished, absorbed by the building, and there was a slight pause. Then a huge fireball rose into the sky.")
20. Mike Dobbs (according to writer, not confirmed, not his own words)
21. Joe Harrington (seems like it made impact before Wedge-in South Parking lot)
22. Rick Renzi (corrupt congressman, listed as law student, has plane "dive bombing", very DUBIOUS account-doe not match either flight path-completely lying)
23. Vin Narayanan (CONTACTED/CONFIRMED/INTERVIEWED BY CIT - part of the USA Today parade, claims he saw a "second jet" after hopping out of his car)

"Saw" a plane & impact from far away, but DID NOT mention a second plane/jet shadowing/chasing and veering away as the impact happened:
24. Steve Anderson, USA Today Editor (saw impact from USA Today building)
Don Wright (a commuter plane, two-engined )
Don Chauncey (small commuter plane)
Steve Gerard (saw small corporate jet with no markings) (CONTACTED/CONFIRMED/INTERVIEWED by CIT)
Lesley Kelly, Cmdr. U.S. Navy (Ret.) (near impossible to see the plane approach from DC)
James Robbins (a national-security analyst & NRO contributor for National Review, William F Buckley (CIA) publication saw silver flash, "diving in an unrecoverable angle")
Ken Ford (prop plane flying up river from National)


Claims plane an American Airlines:
Richard Benedetto
James R. Cissell (later said published version account was "almost completely fiction" by reporter; specifically said "I found it remarkable that someone even saw what airline it was from", implying that he himself could not tell. See here)
Dennis Clem
Mike Dobbs, Marine Cmdr.
Penny Elgas
Cheryl Hammond
Joe Harrington
Lincoln Leibner, Army Major
Elaine McCusker
Mitch Mitchell, Ret. Army Col. CBS news correspondent
Christopher Munsey, Navy Times reporter
Steve Riskus
Mike Walter
James Ryan
Steve Storti
Tim Timmerman
Michael Tinyk (dark orange and blue) (CONTACTED/CONFIRMED by CIT)
Alan Wallace (white airplane with orange and blue trim)
Ian Wyatt
Afework Hagos (according to writer)(CONTACT ATTEMPTED by CIT)

(25 total)

Saw a "silver plane":
Allen Cleveland
Albert Hemphill
James Mosely (silver flash?)
Steve Patterson
James S. Robbins

(7 total)

Saw "the/a plane", not identified as AA:
Steve Anderson
Deb Anlauf
Donald Bouchoux
Pam Bradley
Mark Bright
Omar Campo
Susan Carroll
James R. Cissell
Dan Creed
Daryl Donley
Bob Dubill
Bobby Eberle
Steve Eiden
Bruce Elliott, Colonel
Kim Flyler
Kat Gaines
Fred Gaskins
Steven Gerard
Afework Hagos
Eugenio Hernandez
Fred Hey
Michael James
Andrea Kaiser
Terrance Kean
James Keglovich
Lesley Kelly, Cmdr. U.S. Navy (Ret.)
Aydan Kizildrgli
Ann Krug
Robert A. Leonard
Mary Lyman
David Marra
Oscar Martinez
William Middleton Sr.
Kirk Milburn
Mary Ann Owens
Zinovy Pak
Scott Perry
Christine Peterson
Linda Plaisted
Alfred S. Regnery
Rick Renzi
Meseidy Rodriguez
Joseph Royster
Darb Ryan, Vice Admiral
Noel Sepulveda, Navy Master Sgt.
Elizabeth Smiley
Steve Snaman
Dewey Snavely, Sgt.
G. T. Stanley
Levi Stephens
Greta van Susteren
Shari Taylor
Carla Thompson
Phillip Thompson
Rodney Washington

Only heard plane:
Ralph Banton
Michael DiPaula ("sounded like missile", reporter adds detail about wing)
Lon Rains ("sounded like a missile")
John Thurman,Army Major who works in the Office of the Deputy Chief of Staff
Daniel McAdams

Heard impact/explosions:
Lisa Burgess
Michael DiPaula
John Thurman, Army Major who works in the Office of the Deputy Chief of Staff

Saw something else that does NOT support official story:
Stuart Artman (plane over/near Wash. monument)
Joseph Candelario (plane flying towards White House, sharp turn to Pentagon)
Ken Ford (prop plane flying up river from National)
Kat Gaines (plane striking telephone poles from 110)
Steve Gerard (saw small corporate jet with no markings) (CONTACTED/CONFIRMED/INTERVIEWED by CIT)
Joe Hurst ( saw it go overhead, Oval Room restaurant at Lafayette Square? DC)
Lesley Kelly, Cmdr.U.S. Navy(Ret.)(saw it descend from office in downtown DC)
D.S. Khavkin (saw small commerical craft)
Elaine McCusker (saw AA over 14th street bridge)
Steve Patterson (small silver 8-12 passenger commuter plane)
Dennis Smith (tail section before impact from Pentagon Courtyard)
Clyde A. Vaughn, Army Brig. Gen. (Saw the plane loitering over Georgetown, DC,
Don Wright (a commuter plane, two-engined-strange behavior when questioned about direction )
Omar Campo (saw white with blue on the bottom plane, United plane)
Michael Kelly (plane flying over him while he is on the 14th st bridge, debris falling on the 14th st bridge/395, sounded like small plane)
Harry Gold (saw plane "off the registered course over the Potomac" and believes it made a dive over Rosslyn)
Noel Sepulveda, Navy Master Sgt. (unconfirmed account-claims landing gear was down and hit light pole)
Sgt. Chadwick Brooks CONTACTED/CONFIRMED/INTERVIEWED by CIT-saw champagne off white plane on north side of Citgo, admits he could have been fooled and he stands by where he saw the plane)
Levi Stephens (CONTACTED/CONFIRMED/INTERVIEWED by CIT-saw plane on north side of Citgo, claims did not look like and was not an American Airlines aircraft)
Robert Turcios (CONTACTED/CONFIRMED/INTERVIEWED by CITsaw plane on north side of Citgo, claims did not look like and was not an American Airlines aircraft)

Could see details of plane such as windows or passengers:
Daryl Donley
Steve Eiden
James R. Cissell (later said published version account was "almost completely fiction" by reporter; says he did NOT see passengers; See here)
Kim Flyler

Claims Saw it clip light pole:
Wanda Ramey (CONTACTED/INTERVIEWED by CIT, cannot remember if she thought she actually saw the plane hit a pole or simply deduced it after seeing it on the ground like everyone else we spoke with)
Noel Sepulveda, Navy Master Sgt. (unconfirmed account-claims landing gear was down and hit light pole)
Mike Walter (has since changed story)

Listed or mistaken as witnesses but actually nowhere near the pentagon at the time of the attack nor did they see anything
Don Fortunato
Lee Evey
Tom Hovis
Jack Singleton
Henry Ticknor

Saw plane on north side of Citgo or headed towards north side of Citgo
Sgt William Lagasse
Sgt Chadwick Brooks
Robert Turcios
Levi Stephens
Sean Boger
Ed Paik
William Middleton
Darryl Stafford
Darius Prater
Donald Carter
Amy Hart (according to Steve Ross)
Terry Morin
Maria De La Cerda
George Aman

Unable to make sense of account:
Mark Petitt ( Very dubious account due to being "110", "on a bridge", unless he is referring Rt 27 it would still be dubious because he works "across the street" which can only mean Army Navy Drive in Crystal City which is the ONLY thing that can be "across the street" from the Pentagon-but that is in the other direction that he is driving. If he works at Arlington National Cemetery or the gas station(the Citgo I doubt) Rt 27 or 110 as he called it is a highway, not a "street" like Army Navy DriveEither way-Sounds like he is deducing the impact, not describing it in detail.
it went over the horizon then it came back in front of a bridge where I was sitting. And... I knew it was gonna hit [...] And the next thing you know it was just a huge explosion. Umm, black smoke everywhere.)[/i]

Aldo Marquis CIT - January 15, 2008 08:07 PM (GMT)
Remember, the second plane contained 3 types of witnesses.

1. Those who were genuine who saw a C-130 2-3 minutes or more after the attack. I believe the ANC workers are those types of witnesses.
2. Witnesses who may have seen the flyaway post explosion and just refer to it as a second plane.
3. Complicit operatives who were trying to ambiguously blend and vaguely imply that the there was a second plane/jet shadowing/chasing close behind on the same flight path veering away from or was over or near the pentagon at the time of the impact/explosion/fireball. The wording is key and is actually even accomplished through the author of the articles. When pressed to give details they back off a bit and merely throw O'brien under the bus by making it seem as if he controlled the plane up until the alleged impact while conspiracy theorists lap it up and take the bait, effectively missing the real problems with their account. They want everyone to look like Fetzer did when he was asked about the C-130's role in the BBC 9/11 documentary, 9/11 Conspiracy Files. It is a possibility that there was an effort to lengthen the amount of time after the event that the plane arrived at, ie shadow, 3-5 seconds after, 30 seconds, less than a minute.

Second plane witnesses in chronological order:

9/12/01 Albert Hemphill:

The only large fixed wing aircraft to appear was a gray C-130, which appeared to be a Navy electronic warfare aircraft, he seemed to survey the area and depart in on a westerly heading.

Sep 12, 2001, John O’Keefe,:

John O’Keefe is driving a car when he sees the Pentagon crash. “The first thing I did was pull over onto the shoulder, and when I got out of the car I saw another plane flying over my head.… Then the plane—it looked like a C-130 cargo plane—started turning away from the Pentagon, it did a complete turnaround.” [New York Law Journal, 9/12/2001]

Sep 13, 2001, Joel Sucherman, USA Today:

USA Today Editor Joel Sucherman sees a second plane but gives few details. [eWeek, 9/13/2001]

Off to the west, Sucherman saw another plane climb steeply and make a sharp turn. "I thought, 'Is this thing coming around to make a second attack? If there is another explosion, we're toast.'"


"Within a minute (he says clarifies within 3-5 seconds) another plane started veering up and to the side. At that
point it wasn't clear if that plane was trying to manouver out of the air
space or if that plane was coming round for another hit. (Audio)"

Sep 14, 2001, TERRY SCANLON Daily Press

"Her brother, Wheelhouse, of Virginia Beach , spotted the planes first. The second plane looked similar to a C- 130 transport plane, he said. He believes it flew directly above the American Airlines jet, as if to prevent two planes from appearing on radar while at the same time guiding the jet toward the Pentagon.
As the hijacked jet started its descent, "it's like it stepped on its gas pedal," Wheelhouse said. "As soon as he did that, the second plane banked off to the west."
Wheelhouse's account of a second plane is unlike everything else that has been reported about the attack. Some initial reports on television said a second airliner might be headed for the Pentagon, but authorities later dismissed that. A Norfolk-based FBI agent interviewed Wheelhouse Wednesday evening.
A possible explanation for the second plane could be a plane landing at nearby Ronald Reagan National Airport . The Pentagon is between the cemetery and the airport. But Wheelhouse insists he was not confused by other air traffic.
After the attack on the Pentagon, reporters in Washington saw Air Force planes patrolling the skies over the capital.
Wheelhouse said it's possible the second plane was a military plane, but the military has not said it had a plane shadowing the hijacked jet." –


Brian Kennedy, press secretary for a congressman, and others also see a second plane. [Sacramento Bee, 9/15/2001]

Sep 15, 2001, TERRY SCANLON Daily Press

Another Hampton Roads native says she saw a second plane in the air over the Pentagon as a hijacked jet plunged into the five-sided military fortress Tuesday.

Kelly Knowles, a First Colonial High School alumnus who now lives in an apartment a few miles from the Pentagon, said some sort of plane followed the doomed American Airlines jet toward the Pentagon, then veered away after the explosion.

"Thank God somebody else saw that. There was most definitely a second plane," Knowles said. "It's so frustrating because nobody knows about the second plane, or if they do they're hiding it for some reason."

"FBI spokesmen say they have not heard about it, although both Knowles and Keith Wheelhouse, the Virginia Beach man, were interviewed by FBI agents. A Pentagon official said late Friday no other plane was flying with the jetliner. But he said it was possible a military plane was in the area at the time of the attack.

At the same time, Wheelhouse and his sister, Pam Young, who lives in Surry, were preparing to leave a funeral at Arlington National Cemetery, which is less than a mile from the Pentagon, when they watched the jet approach and slam into the Pentagon. Both of them, as well as at least one other person at the funeral, insist that there was another plane flying near the hijacked jet.
Wheelhouse said the second plane looked like it may have been a C- 130 transport plane, but the other three witnesses say they're not sure what the plane looked like." - Daily Press/Newport News (09/15/01)

Sep 17, 2001 Vin Narayanan , USA Today

“I hopped out of my car after the jet exploded, nearly oblivious to a second jet hovering in the skies”

Oct 28th, 2001 Allen Cleveland:

Soon after the crash(Within 30 seconds of the crash) I witnessed a military cargo plane(Possibly a C130) fly over the crash site and circle the mushroom cloud. My brother inlaw also witnessed the same plane following the jet while he was on the HOV lanes in Springfield . He said that he saw a jetliner flying low over the tree tops near Seminary RD in Springfield , VA. and soon afterwards a military plane was seen flying right behind it.

December 20, 2001:

An unnamed worker at Arlington National Cemetery “said a mysterious second plane was circling the area when the first one attacked the Pentagon.” [Pittsburgh Post-Gazette, 12/20/2001]

9/11/02 Phillip Thompson:

Then a gray C-130 flew overhead, setting off a new round of panic. I tried to reassure people that the plane was not a threat.

9/11/02 Scott Cook, genuine witness to C-130:

"Directly in back of the plume, which would place it almost due west from our office, a four-engine propeller plane, which Ray later said resembled a C-130, started a steep decent towards the Pentagon. It was coming from an odd direction (planes don’t go east-west in the area), and it was descending at a much steeper angle than most aircraft. Trailing a thin, diffuse black trail from its engines, the plane reached the Pentagon at a low altitude and made a sharp left turn, passing just north of the plume, and headed straight for the White House.

All the while, I was sort of talking at it: "Who the hell are you? Where are you going? You’re not headed for downtown!" Ray and Verle watched it with me, and I was convinced it was another attack. But right over the tidal basin, at an altitude of less than 1000 feet, it made another sharp left turn to the north and climbed rapidly. Soon it was gone, leaving only the thin black trail."

user posted image

Hayden - January 15, 2008 08:58 PM (GMT)
A great list. I think the witnesses who "heard a plane" needs some more names, and also, I think it would be interested to see how many didn't hear it, because it seems a lot of the witnesses on the road, very close to the plane, don't hear it (south of Citgo). It seems the people distant, in apartments or at work, hear it first, very loud, then look for it.

How about a "other color" list? And those that see the plane diving down versus flying straight over tree tops?

I will be finishing the local DC coverage live news from that day soon, and will add that to the list. But so far, Dawn Vignola is the first AA witness on air, at 9:51 on CBS. Then at 10:51, on CBS, Joel Sucherman, then at 11:06 on CBS is Mike Walter. I'll have to double check my notes and update this comment, but I think, before noon, those are the only AA witnesses on television.

Thanks for the list and the names. Looks like a lot of work!

Hayden - January 17, 2008 11:46 PM (GMT)
17. Dave Winslow, AP Radio reporter (CONTACTED by CIT, did not return call)

Is this the reporter that gave the first report, that went out to all stations, of a plane at the Pentagon?

Greta van Susteran in her first report on air hears a noise, looks and sees fireball. Later that night, she thinks she looked and might have seen something, then the fireball. The next day, she saw a plane flying at the Pentagon, then a fireball. But her very first report, she doesn't know if it was an airplane or a bomb. NBC reporters inside the Pentagon, heard and felt an explosion, and even an hour after the event have found no plane witnesses, but several that think bombs went off.

Swing Dangler - January 18, 2008 06:47 PM (GMT)
I'm not an excel expert, but it would be great to put these names into excel and punch out some percentages on the number of witnesses who contradict the official story and the number who support the official story.

And then from the list determine what percentage of the eyewitnesses work for the Federal Government or are contracted with the Federal Government.

I'm guessing here but I would imagine the percentages do not favor a support of the official story.

Hayden - January 27, 2008 02:10 AM (GMT)

I'm not sure if Samuel Danner was on the list or not. What do you guys think of his statement?
Samuel Danner (electrical engineer for AmTrak), was involved in the clean-up at the Pentagon crash site and inspected the debris at the site. He said, "It was not a Boeing 757 that hit the Pentagon. The plane looked like a hump-back whale." He thinks a Global Hawk hit the Pentagon. (There were only seven made as of 9/11/01 and two were missing at the time.)

Danner is a former pilot. He said the aircraft that hit the Pentagon was very quiet with one engine near the back. He also saw a second plane overhead and wonders if it was controlling the plane that hit the Pentagon. He walked the lawn and picked up small pieces of debris with others. He did not see any bodies from the aircraft.

Danner is very ill now with lymphoma, which may be the result of DU exposure at the Pentagon on 9/11. He wants to talk now (after seeing "Loose Change") because "it's been bugging me."

The Global Hawk fired a DU missile that penetrated the thick concrete wall of the Pentagon. DU was detected at the time and workers on the scene later in the day wore protective equipment.

Craig Ranke CIT - January 27, 2008 04:03 AM (GMT)
Sam Danner has admitted that he lied for attention.

His son was the one who first outed him and soon after he admitted that he was not even at the scene until hours after the event.

sweetpea - March 1, 2008 05:02 PM (GMT)
I didn't see a category for "Saw Plane Pull Up and Overfly The Building"

Are you telling me *nobody* saw what you are claiming? Not even one or two?

Craig Ranke CIT - March 1, 2008 05:23 PM (GMT)
QUOTE (sweetpea @ Mar 1 2008, 05:02 PM)
I didn't see a category for "Saw Plane Pull Up and Overfly The Building"

Are you telling me *nobody* saw what you are claiming? Not even one or two?

No we are not telling you that at all.

We are telling you that the previously published witness list is mischaracterized and misrepresented.

We are also telling you that the evidence of what people really reported is deliberately withheld implicating a cover-up and also that people who saw the plane flying away were told that it was a 2nd plane even though there was no second plane.

A complete explanation for how this military deception was carried out is available in this presentation.

After watching it, if you still have questions, feel free to ask them in this thread.

Thank you.

sweetpea - March 2, 2008 12:43 PM (GMT)

Great! I'm already getting up to speed on what you have here.

But to play devil's advocate for a moment, you don't have anyone who actually saw the aircraft pull up and fly away? Who saw the whole thing? Anyone from the Doubletree or any of the other buildings in the north part of Crystal City of north of Pentagon City that have that broad, wide vista of the north and north west? You think you would have found someone by now, 6 and a half years later.

Craig Ranke CIT - March 2, 2008 07:47 PM (GMT)
QUOTE (sweetpea @ Mar 2 2008, 12:43 PM)
Great!  I'm already getting up to speed on what you have here.

Excellent. This post should help you out further.


But to play devil's advocate for a moment, you don't have anyone who actually saw the aircraft pull up and fly away?  Who saw the whole thing?  Anyone from the Doubletree or  any of the other buildings in the north part of Crystal City of north of Pentagon City that have that broad, wide vista of the north and north west?  You think you would have found someone by now, 6 and a half years later.

Did you watch the new presentation I linked for you? It goes into this in detail.

The answer to your question is no we don't have a witness who saw it all go down. But that doesn't mean that nobody did. We DO have evidence of a direct cover-up of what people really first reported. This in itself has serious implications.

But most people in the Crystal City high rises would not be aware of the event until AFTER the explosion. People don't typically sit staring at planes out of their window. Particularity in that area where there are all types of strange military craft flying all of the place at any given time. It's common and quite frequent.

So think about are off in the distance in some high rise and all the sudden you hear a big explosion, you go to the window and see this massive smoke plume pouring from the then the plane would be long gone fast ascending up river as departures are doing every couple minutes and all eyes would be on the Pentagon.

Now for the few people who would have still noticed the plane fly away or actually see the entire event go down by seeing the plane on the approach, pull up, and then fly away.......what do you think would happen if they called in to the media or authorities?

On that day ALL KINDS of crazy things were being reported about the attack being at the White House, the Washington Monument, the USA Today building, all being on fire or something.

Perhaps a lot of these reports were legitimate confusion perhaps some were deliberately planted for confusion.

Most people did not have a clue what had just gone down. It was all so quick. We have an interview with someone who was on route 27 directly underneath the flight path and she had no clue there was a plane at all! She was stuck in traffic preoccupied on her cell phone (like most people) and it happened so fast that she didn't see or hear a plane at all and thought that the Pentagon was "bombed". It wasn't until she got home and listened to the news did she know anything about a plane.

The point is that anything that didn't follow what the government told the media happened was written off as "anomalous" in all the confusion.

Now put yourself back in the mind of the witness who saw it all go down. As the media reports of AA77 hitting the building started to come in...(a plane impact was first reported as early as 4 minutes after the attack, see here.) you would think to yourself...."but I saw the plane fly away."

Even if you could get through on the phones regardless of who you called it would not matter because they would simply tell you that AA77 hit the building and that you must have seen something else or they would have taken the report and hung up and later written it off as "anomalous" or inaccurate because the government said AA77 hit the building.

In the following days and weeks there would only be two places for your mind to go....

1. I guess I was just seeing things, was confused, or saw something else and simply missed the plane that hit.
2. I know for a fact that no plane hit that motherf'ing building, this has to be a military psyop.

We all know where number 1 would lead so what do you think most people would do with number 2?

Remember the climate of the nation. Remember the mass hysterical xenophobic desire to kill all things not American.

How loudly would your average person scream "MILITARY PSYOP" and what difference could it possibly have made anyway?

The witness would simply find reports of a 2nd plane and breathe a sigh of relief and probably never consider it again.

Or they would bury it deep in their subconscious and live in fear for what they know while vowing to themselves to never say a word.

Hopefully these people will see our work and it will wake up that sleeping part of their memory and they will speak out.

At this point it's all we can hope for as we continue to seek them out and uncover more and more evidence fatally contradicting the official story.

Aldo Marquis CIT - April 9, 2008 03:13 PM (GMT)

“I saw the plane hit and the fireball and explosion at the Pentagon.”[127]

-Susan Carroll


She was on the Reagan Metro platform.

Please explain how she saw the plane hit:

user posted image
user posted image

Then you have Allen Cleveland and Meseidy Rodriguez as witnesses who were on a train, just pulling onto the reagan platform with their back to the Pentagon.

user posted image
user posted image

Yet here is what "Arabesque" states as their account:

Allen Cleveland: “He saw a jetliner flying low over the tree tops near Seminary RD in Springfield, VA.”[57]

Meseidy Rodriguez: “[it was] flying low over the tree tops near Seminary Rd.”[86]

The same account for both. Yet that statement is attributed to Cleveland referring to what his brother-in-law claims he saw.

Yet Arabesque not only attributes it to Cleveland, but to Rodriguez as well.

Here are the full accounts...

"I was just pulling in on the subway station at national airport, I just happened to look over, actually my back was facing in the direction of the Pentagon, I looked to the right from the train, as we were coming into the station and I notice a jet flying in real low, about a mid-size passenger jet flying in, I know it was silver, that's the only thing I know, as it was coming in, I just realized that there was no landing strip on that side of the subway system, so I just happened to look and thought maybe it was just my mistake because the subway system kind of curves around a little bit, and the next thing I know there was a huge explosion there and everybody on the subway, one mouthed profanity, everybody on the subway turned around and looked and everyone went into total hysterics, women were crying, and people were just absolutely in disbelief."

-Allen Cleveland

Meseidy Rodriguez, also on Metro, saw the plane. "I saw it as it was about to hit, I didn't see it coming in because he [Allen Cleveland] just caught my attention, he yelled and I looked up and I started seeing, basically it was , I just saw very little of it, all I could tell was it was like a mid-size plane and then it was gone and there was all this smoke, and it just caught me off guard I couldn't really tell, it just went straight for the building, straight for the Pentagon."


Kate Agnew, a passenger on Washington Metro, also witnessed the explosion.
--"Terrible Tuesday", The Washington Post, September 16, 2001

"I saw it as it was about to hit"..."as it was coming in... and the next thing I know there was a huge explosion"..."witnessed the explosion."

None of these four could see the impact, let alone the Pentagon...let a lone a flyover/away

They just lost 4.

Anybody want to point some witnesses who debunk the north side flight path?

Any that you've confirmed?

Aldo Marquis CIT - August 7, 2008 09:16 PM (GMT)
Steve Storti:

Steve Storti, who used work as a fire lieutenant in Cranston , was asleep in Crystal City apartment when he was roused by a phone call from a friend
". . . 'What's going to happen next,' Storti, 46, recalls thinking as he stood on his balcony. Then he caught the glint of silver out of the corner of his eye.
He looked up to see a passenger plane with the trademark stainless-steel fuselage and stripes of American Airlines.
Time seemed to slip into slow motion as he watched the plane cross over Route 395, tip its left wing as it passed the Navy annex, veer sharply and then slice into the Pentagon. 'I remember thinking that whoever is flying this knows what they’re doing,' Storti said. "The plane traveled straight as an arrow.'(sic)
When it had plunged in as far as its tail fin, there was huge explosion"

-The plane did not travel straight as an arrow.

His last known address in 2002 was 1425 Eads St., in Crystal City.

Anyone want to tell me how he saw that with all that distance and highrises in between him?

22205 - August 8, 2008 12:22 PM (GMT)
QUOTE (steve storti)
When it had plunged in as far as its tail fin, there was huge explosion"

sounds to me like the timing fits the flyover. once the majority of the fuselage had cleared the building (we're talking seconds/milliseconds), then the explosion occurred, thats why (imo) steve remembers seeing the tail and then an explosion.

the rest of his account is either embellishment, false memory or deduction (thanks to the official story broadcast by the msm at the time of the incident) or outright bullshit, intended to muddy the waters and/or disinform.

but you're right aldo, that at the address you've quoted:

More info available for a fee Record Created: 01/2002

map of crystal city address:

he would NOT have been able to see anything. so either he lived in a position to see more, or he heard some details somewhere that he then put his own twist on the story, OR he never said anything at all, and some slick/eager newsperson took it upon themselves to attribute the story to him.

where i found his account:

the above links to this as the original storti account: (gone, plus search of the site doesNt find it either)*/ (also gone)

all pages prior to 2005 are gone from that site:*/http:/

but its curious how his account appears in a rhode island paper, in 2002 (9/12). given that much time having gone by, who could really give his account any credence? and why in a rhode island paper? did steve move there? was he from there? i assume they were doing an anniversary piece on 911, but why steve storti? i guess storti must be from rhode island.

is this him?

Climate of homophobia cited in lawsuit   
Tuesday, 07 August 2007

The climate of homophobia and hate was hot as the summer sun on Steve Storti’s last day of work as manager of the Town Beach.

Last August, his bosses found out Storti, of Narragansett, was gay. They fired him on the spot for his sexual orientation after allegedly drumming up bogus accusations that the 51-year-old Town Beach manager sexually assaulted, sexually harassed or molested a male employee. They then allegedly accused him of stealing money from the beach operation.

Those are just a few of the claims in a lawsuit filed last week in Rhode Island Superior Court, Providence, against the town of Narragansett, Parks and Recreation Director Barry Fontaine and finance director Robert Uyttebroek along with the estate of late town manager Maurice J. Loontjens Jr.
Earlier this year, Storti won a Rhode Island Labor Board settlement against the town for upaid wages and unpaid over-time.

The suit claimed that on Aug. 5, 2006, town officials, with a police officer in tow, fired Storti and threatened to have him arrested.

Fontaine, a Cranston resident then in his first year as director of the town’s parks and recreation department, and others allegedly allowed beach employees to create and sing “sexually explicit, hateful, homophobic and outrageous lyrics characterizing (Storti) as a ‘faggot,’ who was sexually interested in ‘big butts’ and boys.”

The song, the suit alleged, was broadcast over town radio equipment and heard by employees, beach patrons and the public.

Additionally, town officials accused Storti of theft, accusations that were never validated by police.

Officials then told employees that Storti had been terminated for the three sexually-related  allegations, which the suit claimed they knew to be false.

The suit, being handled by labor attorney Lynette Labinger of Providence, said the firing was part of a climate of hate that Fontaine brought with him when he began work after stints with parks and recreation departments in Cranston and North Providence.

Storti also filed a notice of right to sue with the Rhode Island Commission for Human Rights in mid-July.

The Superior Court lawsuit alleged Fontaine, “in the presence and hearing of (Storti), ex-pressed hatred and distain towards homosexuals, women, Jews and persons of Asian origin.”

The firing and his treatment at the hands of town officials forced Storti to be “ostracized, held up to public ridicule, hatred and contempt in the community, to his great personal injury and in injury to his reputation.”

The broadcast of the homophobic song maligned Storti and caused his “emotional and physical injury.”

When town officials falsely informed police that, after his termination, Storti stole, or was suspected of stealing, town beach money, he was interrogated by Narragansett police investigators, which further caused harm.

The suit alleged that officials had no proof any money was missing and that the statements were made “negligently, reck-lessly and or maliciously” to cover up the alleged illegal firing.

The suit claimed the groundless firing hurt Storti in a number of ways.

“As a direct result of the actions and statements of the defendants, (Storti) suffered substantial injury, including economic loss, and loss of earning capacity, severe emotional injury, physical injury, injury to his reputation within his personal and professional communities, invasion of his privacy, disclosure of private facts and portrayal in a false light, personal humiliation, embarrassment and distress.”

According to the suit, Storti, who began working for the town in the early 1980s driving a beacher cleaner under Ralph Coppa and returned four years ago under the leadership of Andy Notta, has no other remedy but to sue and is seeking a jury trial in which punitive damages may be awarded.

In the suit, Storti is asking for equitable relief, not limited to reinstatement of employment, restoration of all lost wages, and the value of lost fringe benefits, including interest. He is seeking compensatory and punitive damages and interest against all of the defendants, jointly and individually, as allowed by law.

In additional to asking for further relief the court finds proper, Storti is asking for legal fees and costs associated with the suit.


Storti v. Town of Narragansett, Estate of Maurice J. Lootjens Jr., and Barry Fontaine, Recreation Director
Count 1 – Rhode Island Fair Employment Practices Act vio-lation in discriminating against Storti on the basis of sex and sexual orientation.
Count 2 – Rhode Island Civil Rights Act violation in discrimi-nating against him in employ-ment on the basis of sex.
Count 3 – Defamation viola-tion of Storti through slander and libel for defamatory words spoken and broadcast.
Count 4 – Rhode Island Right to Privacy Act violation of Stortu’s right to be secure from unreasonable publicity of his private life and violation of that right by putting him in a false light before the public.
Count 5 – Intentional infliction of emotional distress violation by acting in extreme and outra-geous ways, causing Storti se-vere emotional distress as well as physical injury.
An interesting brouhaha involving a bit of homophobia has emerged in Narragansett, where Steven Storti, formerly manager at the famed Town Beach, is accusing municipal officials of firing him by falsely claiming that he sexually harassing other workers and then demeaning him for being “kwee-aah.” You know — a nancy-boy!

According to the Narragansett Times, this led Storti to allege that one of the those named in the suit, Narragansett Parks and Recreation Director Barry Fontaine, allowed town beach employees to create and sing over town equipment “sexually explicit, hateful, homophobic and outrageous lyrics” that characterized Storti as a “faggot” who was sexually interested in “big butts and boys.”

These ever-so-clever lyrics make a fine addition to Storti’s suit, especially since, according to the Times, they were heard by employees, beach patrons, and the public.

According to the Times, town officials also accused Storti of stealing money collected for the beach, a charge that the local gendarmes have been unable to validate. In the case of the sexually related allegations and the purported theft, Storti asserts that officials knew them to be false, hence the backing away by the police.

It will be very interesting to see just how the town reacts to these charges. They likely did not suspect that this “faggot” just happens to have had a 21-year career as a Cranston firefighter, retiring as a lieutenant, and just might know quite a bit about how town government and public servants should behave. Oops. Stay tuned.
Ex-town worker claims sexual harassment
08:17 AM EDT on Saturday, August 18, 2007
By Randal Edgar

Journal Staff Writer
NARRAGANSETT — A former manager at the Town Beach has filed a lawsuit that accuses town officials of firing him last year based on false charges of sexual harassment and then publicly ridiculing him because he is gay.

Steven R. Storti, 51, a Narragansett resident, alleges he was fired on Aug. 5, 2006, by then Town Manager Maurice J. Loontjens and Parks and Recreation Director Barry S. Fontaine, who publicly confronted him at the beach and accused him of sexually harassing “a male subordinate employee.”

According to the lawsuit, the allegations were later shared with other town employees, who sang a “sexually explicit, hateful, homophobic and outrageous” song over town radio equipment.

Storti also alleges that the town later made false statements to the police that he had stolen or was suspected of stealing money collected for the beach when in fact there was “no theft or loss of beach revenues.”

The suit names the town, Fontaine and estate of Loontjens, who died last October, as defendants. Storti is seeking lost wages, punitive damages, legal fees and other relief that the court “deems necessary and proper.”

Storti’s lawyer, Lynette Labinger, declined to comment on the case, saying the lawsuit should “speak for itself.”

The town’s lawyer, Marc DeSisto, also declined to comment, saying it his policy “not to make any statements” about ongoing cases.

Town Council President T. Brian Handrigan said he had not seen the lawsuit but described the allegations as completely out of character for Loontjens, who served 18 years on the Town Council and then served 10 years as town manager before succumbing to cancer last year.

“Accusing Maury of being a racist or of being against gays, that’s the furthest thing from the truth. I mean the guy never even swore,” Handrigan said. “In all the years that I knew him I never heard him utter a bad word about anybody.”

Fontaine, chosen by Loontjens in 2004 to head the town’s Parks and Recreation Department, said he has not hired his own lawyer because DeSisto is handling the case. He declined to comment further.

“I can’t say too much right now,” he said.

The lawsuit, filed July 30 in Providence County Superior Court, says Storti suffered “substantial injuries,” including economic loss, loss of earning capacity, severe emotional injury, injury to his reputation and personal humiliation.

Storti worked for the town on and off from 2004 to 2006, serving last summer as beach manager until he was fired, according to the lawsuit. He won a claim against the town for unpaid overtime wages this year after going to the state Labor Relations Board, Labinger said.


btw- a search for fontaine and loontjens (named as defendants in storti's case) show no results... i'll keep searching tho - its possible i havent found the right database yet (possible but unlikely since i have searched most if not all of the r.i. databases).


Aldo Marquis CIT - August 8, 2008 05:25 PM (GMT)
nice work bro. lets get on this. btw, I will call you later man.

Aldo Marquis CIT - August 26, 2008 04:45 PM (GMT)
Compliments of 22205...

just to get a taste of how folklore and embellishment became 911 fact, and because this person (and her phone number) are easy to access, here as an excerpt from the above thread. a "witness" which i would highly recommend you pursue as one of your first interviewees:

D.S. Khavkin: "First, the plane knocked down a number of street lamp poles."
We live in Arlington, VA just outside of Washington, DC in a high-rise building on the eight floor. Our balcony faces the city, with a panoramic view of the Pentagon, National Airport, and the entire downtown area of Washington, DC. We were watching the events unfolding on TV in New York. Then, at about 9:40 am Eastern Daylight Time, my husband and I heard an aircraft directly overhead. At first, we thought it was the jets that sometimes fly overhead. However, it appeared to be a small commercial aircraft. The engine was at full throttle.

First, the plane knocked down a number of street lamp poles, then headed directly for the Pentagon and crashed on the lawn near the west side the Pentagon.

so khavkin (allegedly) saw and distinguishes "a SMALL AIRCRAFT" from the usual "JETS that sometimes fly overhead". does that sound like flight 77 (a 757) to you? and again i have to wonder why the BBC in england is printing this account, instead of a local DC paper. to be specific, this account (from khavkin) comes from an EMAIL to the BBC. real official huh? the BBC preface this "account" (and the others on that page) with this:

Thank you for your e-mails. This Talking Point is now closed. A selection of your eye-witness accounts is published below

so once again we have a static account, basically another set of words printed and finding its way in what skeptics would like to call FACT, but there is absolutely no corroboration of this account, NONE. just some guy (could be anyone) who allegedly sent an email to the BBC of all places, instead of posting it locally, WHERE it could be scrutinized and examined by those familiar with the location.

note also that the BBC "selected" which tales to publish. who knows which accounts were omitted and why? either way, anyone could have emailed them their "story". you or i (had we beat the "deadline") could have included our own version and guess what? as long as it in some way supported the OFFICIAL story, it probably would have been printed and then counted on as FACT (by skeptics).

here is a list of KHAVKINS in all of virginia (all results happen to be in arlington,va):

NOTE: not one of those addresses puts you in a position to have seen the plane hit the light poles (all addresses are apartment buildings, YET they are west of and lower than the sheraton):
(is a 3 story apartment building)
(is a gardenstyle apartment building, no higher than 6 stories)
(known as dorchester towers, no higher than 8 stories) (2001 col. pike)
(dorchester towers link)

picture of the columbia pike side of Dorchester Towers (note i count 7 floors above ground level, with one possibly basement level, that makes 8 - per khavkin's claim in her alleged account):
user posted image

white pages/google put her at 2001 columbia pike:

Deborah Khavkin
2001 Columbia Pike, Apt 8XX
Arlington, VA 22204-4556
(703) xxx-xxxx

she lives (or lived) on the 8th floor - which fits khavkin's account. plus - only on the top floor of an apartment building would the sound and the roar/vibrations of a large jet be most evident and most felt (especially on approach from the west). if she was lower than the top floor, she would be shielded from the sound by neighboring apartments ON TOP of hers. we know she wasnt on the west side of the building, or she would have ZERO view of the event, so she had to be on the east side, which faces the sheraton and the pentagon. so she was definitely shielded to some extent by sound from BEHIND (west of her) apartment due to other apartments, which means her reaction to the event would be delayed somewhat. this suggests that by the time she got to her window she was watching the plane making its way PAST overhead and somewhere between her and the SHERATON. but after the sheraton, she could NOT see what became of the event. this is a FACT.

some relevant geographic visuals, you can get the best views of these areas/buildings by using these maps (and clicking on BIRDs EYE VIEW):

user posted image

user posted image

user posted image

user posted image

user posted image

khavkin may have had a view of DC (the washington monument to be specific because it is north of the pentagon), but not of the side of the pentagon that was hit and especially NOT of the light poles.

but just to be sure, i went by the apartment building at 2001 columbia pike, and yes, beyond any doubt, i guarantee you can NOT see the pentagon from that location. the sheraton is in your way, and even if it wasnt, you could NOT see down in to the bowl where the pentagon is.


an update about khavkin's (alleged) location: the building is divided into 3 addresses:

user posted image

so there is only one apartment on the eighth floor of 2001 columbia pike facing east towards the pentagon:
user posted image

but its view is definitely blocked by the sheraton:
user posted image

even without the sheraton in the way, the pentagon and route 27 are out of view due to their lower elevation. at best - the 8th floor apartment would be able to see the rooftops of the row of navy annex buildings, and the horizon.

so khavkin could NOT have seen what is attributed to her (the lightpole impacts, and building impact/penetration). she is just one of multiple alleged "witness" accounts, that when examined closely, reveal the account to be void/moot/false.

seatnineb - August 26, 2008 07:36 PM (GMT)

Great work again Aldo!

Aldo Marquis CIT - August 26, 2008 08:09 PM (GMT)
Thanks Seat,

but that was from our resident Arlingtonian and CIT Associate Investigator, 22205.

22205 - August 26, 2008 10:27 PM (GMT)
thanks for the props aldo, but i would like to make a distinction: i am a researcher and partial contributor, not an investigator. to be worthy of such a title, one would have to forego all anonymity and step up to a whole new level of involvment AND vulnberability in pursuit of truth. one has to be willing to get out there and do actual investigative footwork, knocking on doors, making calls, and asking people real questions - live and in person. so i look up to you and craig as investigators (you have fully earned that title), but for now im still not ready to graduate to that level. everything (or most everything) i do, aside from taking pictures, can be done by anyone with a computer, halfway decent research skills, an open mind, and a willingness to pursue truth. i think when people understand the distinction im making, and only then - will they have a real appreciation for what it takes to be fully devoted (at all cost to one's self) to finding the truth. so i salute you (plural) and all that you (plural) do to investigate the truth, and i will do my best to continue (as a researcher) to contribute to those efforts.

may truth prevail.

surcouf - October 6, 2008 01:20 PM (GMT)

Extract from

"Given his tone of veracity and humility, Roseborough's testimony speaks believably to (at minimum) a dual energetic event, and by disconnecting the low-flying aircraft(s) from the explosive fireball which rose over the Pentagon facade, it may also speak to a fly-over theory. However did CIT miss him?"

A.Marquis - October 6, 2008 03:17 PM (GMT)
Inteteresting. Never heard of him. May be worth looking into.

Just so you know, Steve Warran thinks we are operatives. :D

Hayden - October 7, 2008 06:04 PM (GMT)
Because I recently noticed a line from Sgt Brooks in his interview, where he says the plane was big, a 737 he guessed, and not the small cessna sized plane that everybody was talking about, did he mean everybody on the day at the scene was talking about it?

Don Chauncey (small commuer plane)
D.S. Khavkin (saw small commerical craft from back on Columbia Pike in highrise)
Don Wright (a commuter plane, two-engined )
Steve Gerard (saw small corporate jet with no markings)
Steve Patterson (small silver 8-12 passenger commuter plane)
Omar Campo (saw white with blue on the bottom plane, United plane)

Omar also describes it as "not very big" when asked by reporter if it was a 12 passenger jet size plane. There are a few witnesses who said it sounded like a small plane, but not counting those there are 6 accounts in the media, 4 of them on television that day, of a small plane. Does anyone know anymore small plane accounts?

I realize that a Lear jet is big, not as big as a 757, but not a small 2 person plane, and I think Omar is describing this, big, but not as big as a 757. A few of them put the plane close to the official path, south of Citgo.

As far as I know, there are no small plane witnesses on the north of Citgo.

Sgt Brooks sees the large plane north of Citgo. He doesn't look around to see if maybe a smaller, faster plane (the quiet one vs the loud plane? the low and level vs the descending, banking NoG plane?) is flying 20 feet above cars south of Citgo, so he doesn't see both planes.

Can the FBI keep witnesses silent? Sure. TWA flight 800 had 180 witnesses to an object streaking towards the plane before it exploded. But FBI told individual witnesses that no one else reported this, that maybe they saw fuel leaking from the plane instead of an object streaking towards it. Being the "only one" kept them silent. Then an FAA investigation uncovered these witnesses, got them together, but too late. The NTSB report was done. The media didn't care. And to this day, these witnesses are trying to be heard, and the truth is trying to be uncovered, and the cover-up continues.

Maybe you saw fuel leaking instead of an object streaking. Maybe you thought it was a small plane because of how far away you were. Maybe you thought you saw two planes because of how fast it was. Maybe the second plane was the C-130 others reported.

Or maybe there were 2 planes? A lack of 2 plane witnesses doesn't mean there weren't 2 planes...just like a lack of fly over witnesses doesn't mean the NoG plane didn't fly over.

4 small plane witnesses on television in the first few hours, 3 AA 757 witnesses in that same time.

DonM - October 7, 2008 10:02 PM (GMT)
Hi Hayden:

From Craig:
There were not 2 planes.

Nobody saw 2 planes or ANYTHING on the south side.

This is from my discussion with him about "the poles"... and possibilities other than staging.


A.Marquis - October 7, 2008 11:14 PM (GMT)
QUOTE (Hayden @ Oct 7 2008, 06:04 PM)

Maybe you saw fuel leaking instead of an object streaking.  Maybe you thought it was a small plane because of how far away you were.  Maybe you thought you saw two planes because of how fast it was.  Maybe the second plane was the C-130 others reported. 

Or maybe there were 2 planes?  A lack of 2 plane witnesses doesn't mean there weren't 2 planes...just like a lack of fly over witnesses doesn't mean the NoG plane didn't fly over. 

4 small plane witnesses on television in the first few hours, 3 AA 757 witnesses in that same time.

I think there are plenty explanations for reports of it being a small plane. You listed some, but a strong possibility remains that it was disinfo.

I spoke with Steven Gerard. he was very skiddish and didn't want to talk about what he claims he saw. He said, "what I saw is what is on the record". He was very uncooperative and didn't want to 'contribute to any conspiracy theories'. I made it very clear to him that his account was the BASIS for conspiracy theories. He works for the DoJ, don't forget.

No one actually saw a small 12 passenger jet. I might believe the plane was a 737. But not a commuter plane.

DS Khavkin is unreachable/unwilling to return calls.
Steve Patterson doesn't exist as far as we are concerned and his flight path iirreconcilable with everything we know.
Don Chauncey was across the river byt he beltway. Any jet would look small to him if he even saw it.
Don Wright was in Rosslyn. A plane from Rosslyn could look smaller. Also when asked about which direction. he simply repeated the direction as if it were a script.
Omar Campo describes a passenger sized jet.

I think our newest witnesses give you the real uncut version of what happend and what that plane looked like.

There was one large plane on the approach and it flew on the north side of the Citgo. Then a C-130 came by 3 minutes later as the Tribby video now confirms.

DonM - October 9, 2008 12:51 AM (GMT)
And now we find out that there were 2 F-16s right behind the C-130???
Why has no one ever reported that before? If true, that's HUGE!!!


Craig Ranke CIT - October 9, 2008 03:12 AM (GMT)
Not "right behind" as in "shadowing" per se, but coming in shortly afterward.

Remember the C-130 wasn't in the area until 2 or 3 minutes later.

Why would you think the presence of F-16's at that point is a revelation?

DonM - October 10, 2008 01:11 AM (GMT)
This is from memory, but...
one of the guys at ANC said that the C-130 was about 1/2 min to a minute later and then the fighters zipped right through. He (they) thought that the fighters were chasing the C-130.
That's pretty darned close.

It was the drum major who said "F-16s"... and that they came through right away.

I don't remember hearing about fighters in the area until MUCH later. Why are people fussing about the E4B loitering around if there were F-16s there immediately after the explosions?


PS.. I don't think that this should be in a Witness List thread :huh:

Craig Ranke CIT - October 10, 2008 01:30 AM (GMT)
Yes Stafford described the C-130 as 30 seconds to a minute but Prather described it as 3 minutes.

The Tribby video confirms that Prather is more correct and this also makes the most sense with the C-130 pilot's statements.

We know the pilot was too far away at the time of the explosion to even be able to tell that it was coming from the Pentagon at first!

Lord knows we have enough proof that the "shadow" claim is a deliberate lie.

Now realize that people are going to remember what they saw and getting exact timing regarding seemingly little details from any single eyewitness account isn't likely.

Fighter jets over Arlington would not be alarming to people across the river in DC but the people in Arlington would certainly remember them.

Plus of course a couple of fighter jets by the Pentagon minutes later (not "immediately") would be expected.

But a single mysterious odd looking large passenger jet over DC, restricted airspace, would be much more alarming considering what had just happened in NY and Arlington minutes prior.

Plus realize the E4B was likely MEANT to be alarming so the authorities likely sounded alarms (evacuated the WH etc) to MAKE people scared and get them running around and taking notice.

What is it about the fighter jets that you think is suspicious?

DonM - October 10, 2008 02:49 AM (GMT)
Yes Stafford described the C-130 as 30 seconds to a minute but Prather described it as 3 minutes.

Yes, that makes more sense.

What is it about the fighter jets that you think is suspicious?

Well... as far as I recall the USAF denies having ANY assets (other than Gopher 06) in the area until much later.

Lord knows we have enough proof that the "shadow" claim is a deliberate lie.


Craig Ranke CIT - October 10, 2008 05:49 AM (GMT)
I think we're on the same page.

You were simply under the impression the C-130 was in the area earlier than the full body of evidence indicates.

Craig Ranke CIT - October 10, 2008 05:52 AM (GMT)

Maria De La Cerda, George Aman, and Donald Carter ALL describe the F-16's or "fighter jets" as coming in shortly afterward in detail.

A.Marquis - October 13, 2008 04:22 PM (GMT)
Witness Isabelle James claims she was driving down Columbia Pike with her husband Michael James, a Navy information technician:

user posted image

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Interesting how Isabel James seems seperated from her husband Michael in the above photos. She also seems to be holding a walkie talkie or perhaps a nextel? Were nextels that popular in 2001? What would she be doing down there? Did Michael try to help in the rescue and they got separated? Or was there something else going on?

It is probably nothing. And may not even be her.

Michael James, 37, a Navy information technician, watched from his car with his wife Isabelle:

BYLINE: M.E. Sprengelmeyer, News Washington Bureau


If he had been on schedule, a former Lakewood man might have been on the
bottom of the Pentagon rubble.

Michael James, 37, a Navy information technician watched in horror from
his car Tuesday as an airplane careened off a helicopter pad and smashed
into the side of the Pentagon, where he spends about half of
his day.

"I was supposed to be in the Pentagon underneath all that
rubble," said James, pressed into service directing gawkers away from a
road leading to the compound. "If it would have happened 10
minutes later, I would have been down there."

He is often in the lower Corridor 4 offices of the Navy telecommucations
center around 6 a.m., but Tuesday he was away taking a physical fitness

After the workout he went home to shower and that's when he saw on TV a
hijacked airplane smash into the World Trade Center.

As he rushed to get ready, he and his wife, Isabelle, saw the plane veer
toward the Pentagon.

"The plane came over the top of us and brushed the trees, " he said.
"Then it looked like it hit the helicopter pad and skipped up and went
right into the first and second floors."

His offices are in the general vicinity of where the plane crashed.

"No, I don't feel lucky because I still can't account for my people, six
of them," said James, an Alameda High School graduate.

Rocky Mountain News (Lexis-Nexis - M. E. Sprengelmeyer)

She said they were on Columbia Pike. The reporter also asked her if she only saw 1 plane.(Exactly our point about the flyover plane confusing reporters/people, being called a second plane). She reinforces "So you actually saw the plane enter the building?" Why is that? Because the reporter is confused by people who said it did not hit the building.

Most importantly, the reporter asked if she saw any markings. She says...

"we were driving down Columbia Pike and it just shrew right over us... I didn't see any markings...the trees...the treeline (blocked our view).

Here is the bend on Columbia Pike to the left where the fire engine is driving, with the treeline:

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Here is the rest of the treeline she was referring to:

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Clearly she is speaking figuratively, and didn't clearly understand why the reporter was asking if she "actually saw it enter the building". She saw a plane, saw the explosion through trees and DEDUCED that it hit. And said "Why yes , I saw the plane hit the building".


A.Marquis - October 13, 2008 04:29 PM (GMT)


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That is much too far away. Just doesn't seem plausible. Sounds like he wanted his 15 minutes of fame.

A.Marquis - October 14, 2008 08:18 PM (GMT)
Arlington Poster and CIT associate, 22205...

i was passing by 2005 col.pike today and saw some workers up on the roof of Khavkin's building, so i knew i could get up there and get some pics of her POV. here they are:

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pic taken from location A:

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pic taken from location B:

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therefore: DS Khavkin, who resided at 2005 columbia pike in september of 2001, could not and did not see the impact.

Hayden - November 19, 2008 06:22 AM (GMT)
I had thought Isabella James to be the best witness for those that believe the official story, but Aldo has some great info about her. It seemed like she was assuming the crash, and from the images, she could not see the Pentagon.

I think she is on the air with reporter Megan when secondary explosions are being discussed, Megan stating that she's heard three, and Isabella also heard them, but explains they were probably gas lines inside the building.

I find it interesting how many witnesses guess at reasons why things should be dismissed. Like probably just gas lines inside the building. Or Mike Walter claiming the wings folding up against the fuselage is why the hole is so small. Or Timmerman claiming most of the energy of the crash was spent on the lawn, explaining the small damage to the building.

Hayden - November 19, 2008 06:42 AM (GMT)
If you have time, maybe you could edit the first post? I noticed it doesn't have all the north of Citgo witnesses. And 22205 has shown Khavkin could not see impact, and that Don Chauncey couldn't see the impact. Because I think the list is an awesome resource and should be as up to date as possible.


A.Marquis - November 20, 2008 11:34 PM (GMT)
Thanks Hayden, I will get on it as soon as I have the chance.

Ligon - November 20, 2008 11:38 PM (GMT)
Roosevelt and Dewitt need to be added too.

Hayden - November 21, 2008 09:22 AM (GMT)
Greta van Susteren is at Nat'l Airport, in the parking lot, heard a huge noise, looked in direction of Pentagon, there's a huge plume of smoke from that area, can't see the Pentagon, buildings are in the way. Heard a noise before she saw the smoke, doesn't know if it was an airplane or if it was a bomb.

Then later she claims to maybe see a plane before the explosion.

Hayden - November 22, 2008 01:50 AM (GMT)
9:46 am Greta van Susteren is at Nat'l Airport, giving this report on the air on CNN.

Ten minutes after the event as the FDR suggests, (unless it happened at 9:32 as the clocks suggest), she gives the statement, doesn't know if it was a bomb or plane.
Ten minutes to talk about this with her husband (or boyfriend, I can't remember) and whoever else is around at the airport.
Later she says maybe there was a streak she spotted over her boyfriend's shoulder, then the explosion.
Then I think later she says she saw the plane that hit the Pentagon.
But what, she didn't want to risk being the reporter to break the news that it was a 757 that flew into the Pentagon?
She decided to say she doesn't know if it was a bomb or a plane?

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